Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater

[goyotes]

$1.00 can get you beer and hotdogs at some Coyotes games.

If Hulsizer buys the team with his own money end of problems. Does the COG subsidize every business in the municipality? Joe's Records is having a tough time making money but has 8 minimum wage workers so the COG leases the parking lot for 30 years to inject capital into the business. This is insane or at the very least corporate welfare for millionaires.

I'm not sure what the point of the comment is. Do you think you presented the same situation? Last time I checked, Joe's Records didn't employ 1000 people, create millions in tax revenue for the city, or operate out of a location that the city spent $180 million to build.

Is is corporate welfare? Of course. So? Tell me it doesn't happen all the time in every city in North America. That is not the issue. The issue is whether the elected officials for the CoG have the right and responsibility to exercise judgment in how they conduct business in the best interest of the people who elected them to make those decisions.

 

[goyotes]

I find it very hard to believe an AHL team will "bleed money". The phoenix coyotes average ticket price is about $37. Where is the average ticket price in the AHL or CHL that much? The AHL average 5,500 fans a game. I think with the lower prices for AHL hockey, a team at jobing will be able to average at least 5,500. There have to a solid group of hockey fans in the area that will take what they can get.

I have no question we would average at least that much. For a period of years, Phoenix had the Coyotes and an ECHL team. The ECHL team played out of US Airways arena, and usually had 3,500 for those games. Totally different type of patron.

It would help the CoG's situation, but there would still be a significant shortfall.

 

[PitbulI]

But goyotes. The GWI isn't blocking the deal. They are in no power to do that. They are simply saying they will go to a judge in an attempt to block a deal they feel illegal if the bonds are sold.

It's the same thing they have all over the place. Watchdog groups that are a bunch of lawyers that have the ability to go to a judge. It's not like the State government is blocking the deal.

I know it's true that investors are looking at this deal and saying "If I buy these bonds, this could go to court and what would happen after that?" but at the same time, they are thinking that this subsidy to MH is illegal and they stand to lose a lot of money if the COG were to default.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

I'm not sure what the point of the comment is. Do you think you presented the same situation? Last time I checked, Joe's Records didn't employ 1000 people, create millions in tax revenue for the city, or operate out of a location that the city spent $180 million to build.

Is is corporate welfare? Of course. So? Tell me it doesn't happen all the time in every city in North America. That is not the issue. The issue is whether the elected officials for the CoG have the right and responsibility to exercise judgment in how they conduct business in the best interest of the people who elected them to make those decisions.

No, they do not have that right according to the AZ constitution. They have the right to purchase items for fair value, not give away taxpayer money to business without receiving , i forgot the term so I will use, fair value in return.

 

[Killion]

Is is corporate welfare? Of course. So? Tell me it doesn't happen all the time in every city in North America. That is not the issue. The issue is whether the elected officials for the CoG have the right and responsibility to exercise judgment in how they conduct business in the best interest of the people who elected them to make those decisions.

Absolutely. What I find troubling here goyotes is that the COG froze when it was time to perform & execute, lost its momentum, broke strategy, allowed a special interest to take center stage in dictating both policy & mandate. Both parties talk the talk but seem unwilling to walk the walk. No news whatsoever is bad news, and Im not referring to the editorials pro/con in AzCentral & elsewhere, Im talking real news as to what the COG plans to do right here right now?. Their on the defensive and appear to have run out of time. I/we dont know that for sure of course, and maybe there are all kinds of things going on behind closed doors including the possibility that Jerry Reinsdorfs re-entered the fray. Maybe thats why the delay & perceived lack of activity, we just dont know. If they are confident in their position from a legal perspective with the Hulsizer deal, and its all theyve' got, then they simply must seek a declarative jdgmnt from the courts. Sell the Bonds, if only even 1/2 with a promise to move the rest, and away we go.

 

[Confucius]

Absolutely. What I find troubling here goyotes is that the COG froze when it was time to perform & execute, lost its momentum, broke strategy, allowed a special interest to take center stage in dictating both policy & mandate. Both parties talk the talk but seem unwilling to walk the walk. No news whatsoever is bad news, and Im not referring to the editorials pro/con in AzCentral & elsewhere, Im talking real news as to what the COG plans to do right here right now?. Their on the defensive and appear to have run out of time. I/we dont know that for sure of course, and maybe there are all kinds of things going on behind closed doors including the possibility that Jerry Reinsdorfs re-entered the fray. Maybe thats why the delay & perceived lack of activity, we just dont know. If they are confident in their position from a legal perspective with the Hulsizer deal, and its all theyve' got, then they simply must seek a declarative jdgmnt from the courts. Sell the Bonds, if only even 1/2 with a promise to move the rest, and away we go.

Give Bettman an I O U, I LOVE IT! At least it shows moxie.

Reminds me I sold a house once on a post dated cheque. Well, it was in Hamilton and I did want out.

 

[goyotes]

But goyotes. The GWI isn't blocking the deal. They are in no power to do that. They are simply saying they will go to a judge in an attempt to block a deal they feel illegal if the bonds are sold.

It's the same thing they have all over the place. Watchdog groups that are a bunch of lawyers that have the ability to go to a judge. It's not like the State government is blocking the deal.

I know it's true that investors are looking at this deal and saying "If I buy these bonds, this could go to court and what would happen after that?" but at the same time, they are thinking that this subsidy to MH is illegal and they stand to lose a lot of money if the COG were to default.

Even the GWI would take credit for blocking the deal. They just sued a local school district to enjoin the use of bond money. Clearly, they understand that by them not seeking an injuction, they are doing one of two things 1) preventing the sale of the bonds, or 2) forcing the CoG to sell the bonds at an excessive rate. To blame the CoG for not wanting to just plow ahead full steam is ridiculous, IMO. The GWI is playing games, and standing behind the Arizona constitution as a pretext.

 

[goyotes]

No, they do not have that right according to the AZ constitution. They have the right to purchase items for fair value, not give away taxpayer money to business without receiving , i forgot the term so I will use, fair value in return.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was speaking with an expert on the Arizona constitution. And, aside from the GWI and you, no other attorney with skin in the game, law firm, or other organization agrees with the GWI who has gone so far out on a limb to say this "might" violate the constitution "they think". Aside from misstating the standard under the Turken test, I have yet to read a cogent statement from the GWI that explains in clear terms why they "think" this "might" violate the gift clause.

People have suggested the CoG has worked with smoke and mirrors. I suggest the real artist here is the GWI. Puff your chest, and create enormous economic fall out and job loss, and your response is "not my problem."

 

[Confucius]

Even the GWI would take credit for blocking the deal. They just sued a local school district to enjoin the use of bond money. Clearly, they understand that by them not seeking an injuction, they are doing one of two things 1) preventing the sale of the bonds, or 2) forcing the CoG to sell the bonds at an excessive rate. To blame the CoG for not wanting to just plow ahead full steam is ridiculous, IMO. The GWI is playing games, and standing behind the Arizona constitution as a pretext.

Why? Do you think GW hates Glendale?

 

[headsigh]

Why? Do you think GW hates Glendale?

Weren't they preparing to sue a school district for trying to use tax money for renovating schools?

That's pretty petty, I wouldn't hold it past them to hold grudges "for the greater good".

 

[Confucius]

Weren't they preparing to sue a school district for trying to use tax money for renovating schools?

That's pretty petty, I wouldn't hold it past them to hold grudges "for the greater good".

There must be more to this. That does seem illogical.

 

[Larabee]

A question for GoYotes or anyone from AZ. Why is Glendale the only city fighting to save the Coyotes ? I realize they have the most to gain or lose, but this is a Phoenix/Arizona team right ? Why doesn't Arizona sell 200 Million in bonds, buy the team and get all the cities pitch in and pay for it. Naturally, Glendale could pay a greater proportion via parking revenue or taxing districts. But if the cost was pooled, it's more affordable. Then, when the team is on its feet and turning a little profit, a private buyer would more than happy step in.
It just seems from the outside, that no one cares about the Coyotes except Glendale.

 

[BigBadBread]

So when was the last bit of news about this situation released? Like what's going on now? Are they still looking for bond buyers? The ball has to be in some ones court doesn't it?

Personally, I think its over. I think all parties are just trying to stay out of the news too much and let the Coyotes finish their season without a massive poopshow.

 

[Alberta Yote]

There must be more to this. That does seem illogical.

A little more to it. Still goofy.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2011/04/05/20110405scottsdale-goldwater-institute-sues-schools.html

 

[Confucius]

A question for GoYotes or anyone from AZ. Why is Glendale the only city fighting to save the Coyotes ? I realize they have the most to gain or lose, but this is a Phoenix/Arizona team right ? Why doesn't Arizona sell 200 Million in bonds, buy the team and get all the cities pitch in and pay for it. Naturally, Glendale could pay a greater proportion via parking revenue or taxing districts. But if the cost was pooled, it's more affordable. Then, when the team is on its feet and turning a little profit, a private buyer would more than happy step in.
It just seems from the outside, that no one cares about the Coyotes except Glendale.

Actually that seems fairly easy to answer. If the team is playing in your city and gets lured away to a bordering city. If the bordering city finds itself in trouble a few years later. Would your city bail them out? Not likely.

 

[Larabee]

People have suggested the CoG has worked with smoke and mirrors. I suggest the real artist here is the GWI. Puff your chest, and create enormous economic fall out and job loss, and your response is "not my problem."

Some say "create" others say "prevent".

 

[crazed323]

I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was speaking with an expert on the Arizona constitution. And, aside from the GWI and you, no other attorney with skin in the game, law firm, or other organization agrees with the GWI who has gone so far out on a limb to say this "might" violate the constitution "they think". Aside from misstating the standard under the Turken test, I have yet to read a cogent statement from the GWI that explains in clear terms why they "think" this "might" violate the gift clause.

People have suggested the CoG has worked with smoke and mirrors. I suggest the real artist here is the GWI. Puff your chest, and create enormous economic fall out and job loss, and your response is "not my problem."

It's not up to Godwater to prove why it is illegal. It's up to the COG to prove why it isn't. If they had we wouldn't be here.

Your cities fronting money for sports franchises everywhere has some substance to it. But where has a city fronted money with a huge gamble attached to it.

Build an arena fine, you own the arena after. Buy a parking lot and what do you have if the main tenant leaves? Besides it is clearly obvious the City already owns the parking lot.

If this team wasn't a consistent (by consistent I mean every year of their existence in the Phoenix area) money loser. This deal would be alot better for the taxpayers. Of course if the team made money the COG wouldn't have to buy a parking lot they CLEARLY own.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

There must be more to this. That does seem illogical.

I think it's just that its become personal.

 

[Alberta Yote]

It's not up to Godwater to prove why it is illegal. It's up to the COG to prove why it isn't. If they had we wouldn't be here.

Exactly, guilty until proven innocent. It's about time we stopped pandering to the criminals.

yeehaw

 

[Larabee]

Actually that seems fairly easy to answer. If the team is playing in your city and gets lured away to a bordering city. If the bordering city finds itself in trouble a few years later. Would your city bail them out? Not likely.

The greater Pheonix area is still one big municipality, or at least it should be. The various cities seem to operate too independantly with too much competition and jealously between them. There doesn't seem to be any cooperation taking place. Hockey fans come from all over, not just Glendale.

 

[Confucius]

A little more to it. Still goofy.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2011/04/05/20110405scottsdale-goldwater-institute-sues-schools.html

Yeah, it seems a little anal. Anyway, it appears the people actually voted on the 41 million school bond. The Coyote bond didn't go to the people for a vote. Interesting.

 

[Confucius]

The greater Pheonix area is still one big municipality, or at least it should be. The various cities seem to operate too independantly with too much competition and jealously between them. There doesn't seem to be any cooperation taking place. Hockey fans come from all over, not just Glendale.

All I can relate to is Toronto and Mississauga. If Mississauga lured the Leafs away with a new arena, there is noway that the city of Toronto would help them out.

 

[JAX]

Yeah, it seems a little anal. Anyway, it appears the people actually voted on the 41 million school bond. The Coyote bond didn't go to the people for a vote. Interesting.

Putting money towards education is one thing, with the coyotes they will be flushing it down the toilet.

 

[Jonjmc]

It's not up to Godwater to prove why it is illegal. It's up to the COG to prove why it isn't. If they had we wouldn't be here.

Your cities fronting money for sports franchises everywhere has some substance to it. But where has a city fronted money with a huge gamble attached to it.

Build an arena fine, you own the arena after. Buy a parking lot and what do you have if the main tenant leaves? Besides it is clearly obvious the City already owns the parking lot.

If this team wasn't a consistent (by consistent I mean every year of their existence in the Phoenix area) money loser. This deal would be alot better for the taxpayers. Of course if the team made money the COG wouldn't have to buy a parking lot they CLEARLY own.

You have this backwards. As Alberta Yote said, you are implying guilty until proven innocent.

 

[htpwn]

All I can relate to is Toronto and Mississauga. If Mississauga lured the Leafs away with a new arena, there is noway that the city of Toronto would help them out.

Several Toronto councillers would probably try, but Rob Ford would just call it "gravy" with Don Cherry calling them "left-wing kooks."

Regardless, Ontario MPP's would probably get involved if the situation was truly dire. We have seen them get involved in matters before, including bringing forward a motion to support the iniative for another team in Southern Ontario. I presume the state legislature has no interest in footing the bill of the Coyotes?