Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead

[MaskedSonja]

Comparing Leafs to Coyotes

Um, how are we talking being run?

On Ice? There be an argument there.

Off Ice: MLSE OWNS ACC, paid for it with their own money, are in the top three (if not top) financially successful teams in the NHL. And Teachers Pension fund is wanting to sell a stake that could be worth 1.3 BILLION (with a B) dollars(now granted that is the stake for all the teams, Raps, Leafs, Toronto FC-my understanding the Maple Leafs themselves might *only* worth about 5-600 million of that-yea that's pretty poorly run

No, Toronto Maple Leafs are NOT a poorly run franchise. Have there been management questions pertaining particularly to the competitiveness of the on ice product? Absolutely.

But they are not a "poorly run franchise"-poorly run franchises are not worth (at least) 4-500 million dollars

 

[Grumpz]

That's what I'm thinking. The one thing that I hate to give the impression of is that I know the solutions, or that my opinion is anything but the garden variety opinion. This place is just topping 10,000 with STH's and casual fans.

I just don't know what the answer is. I don't see how someone comes in and has time to change the culture significantly enough, in a reasonable period of time, as to not continue to hemorrhage money.

I think Hulsizer knows he's going to take it in the nads for the foreseeable future because this is a **** situation, and thus is only willing to go into the endeavor if Glendale and the taxpayers make every concession possible short of giving him the team for free....which they're all but doing. LOL

I'll tell you one thing. It'll be very interesting to see what happens if this team stays.

I'm sure MH wants to make money, so I think most would agree that you can kiss the discounts goodbye.

If they can't average 16000 per game for the season, with free parking, and $25 dollar tickets that include food and drink, how are they going to average that when they have to pay full price?

 

[kdb209]

Two Weeks on Glendale Time ...

Boy, leave work early and get bumped down to page 5.

12-08-2008 Hockey in The Desert (Phoenix franchise and finance/business matters)
02-04-2009 Hockey in the Desert II (Phoenix Coyotes franchise and business matters)

05-05-2009 Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes
05-07-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part II
05-18-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part III
05-22-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part IV
06-03-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part V
06-09-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI
06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road

11-24-2009 Keeping up with potential owners for NHL Phoenix Coyotes (UPD: Ice Edge signs LOI)
03-14-2010 Part II. Potential owners of NHL's Phoenix Coyotes
03-26-2010 Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)
04-10-2010 Part IV Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy; UPD COG approves Reinsdorf MOU, not IEH MOU
05-02-2010 Part V Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy UPD Reinsdorf out? IEH back in? else Winnipeg?
05-11-2010 Part VI Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy
05-23-2010 Part VII Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy
06-07-2010 Part VIII: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankrtuptcy
06-22-2010 Part IX: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankruptcy UPD: Pres Moss fired 6/30 with IEH input
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore
12-14-2010 Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing
12-20-2010 Part XVII: Phoenix -- Thread Title Available For Lease
01-09-2011 Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front
01-24-2011 Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown
02-02-2011 Phoenix XX: Two weeks
02-11-2011 Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?
02-22-2011 Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never
02-28-2011 Phoenix XXIII - Bond: The Phoenix Project
03-03-2011 Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?
03-07-2011 Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?
03-08-2011 Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ
03-11-2011 Phoenix XXVII: Can we all get along?
03-16-2011 Phoenix XXVIII: Lawyers, Bonds and Money
03-20-2011 Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show
03-22-2011 Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead

 

[Pinkfloyd]

All the contributing factors for the Coyotes failure have been present in other locations....yet those other locations have not ended up where Phoenix currently is.

So...something IS different here.

I'm just tired of hearing all the blame and excuses as if this is the only sports franchise in the history of man that has had those same problems.

This is a whole new level of bad....you can't pawn off the blame on everyone except the market in this case. You just can't.

Just wait...if the Coyotes stick around...are competitive and everything is looking up....when there are 8,000 people at a game people will say "What do they expect? They raised ticket prices! The Owners are being greedy....you can't blame the market for this!"

It will never end.....I realize that. Every market ever chosen by any sports league has always been perfectly suited to be a money-maker...it's all those other problems that get in the way. Every market is capable of hosting every sport....as long as the other factors don't bungle it up.

So tiring....

I, quite simply, disagree with this stance. Blaming the market for a bankruptcy that was predicated on poor ownership is ridiculous. This is a whole new level of bad because the ownership group was a whole new level of bad at running a pro franchise. Plain and simple.

The fans were there in decent numbers for a team that was awful and had no direction. This is also when it wasn't nearly as discounted as it is now. You can't pawn the blame onto the market because the market was actually at a respectable number prior to the mess. There were plenty of teams that sucked and had less attendance than the Coyotes that aren't in this mess.

 

[Donwood]

Um, how are we talking being run?

On Ice? There be an argument there.

Off Ice: MLSE OWNS ACC, paid for it with their own money, are in the top three (if not top) financially successful teams in the NHL. And Teachers Pension fund is wanting to sell a stake that could be worth 1.3 BILLION (with a B) dollars(now granted that is the stake for all the teams, Raps, Leafs, Toronto FC-my understanding the Maple Leafs themselves might *only* worth about 5-600 million of that-yea that's pretty poorly run

No, Toronto Maple Leafs are NOT a poorly run franchise. Have there been management questions pertaining particularly to the competitiveness of the on ice product? Absolutely.

But they are not a "poorly run franchise"-poorly run franchises are not worth (at least) 4-500 million dollars

No I was kidding refering to the on ice product. Without a doubt MLSE is an extermley well run professional organization.

 

[checkerdome]

That's what I'm thinking. The one thing that I hate to give the impression of is that I know the solutions, or that my opinion is anything but the garden variety opinion. This place is just topping 10,000 with STH's and casual fans.

I just don't know what the answer is. I don't see how someone comes in and has time to change the culture significantly enough, in a reasonable period of time, as to not continue to hemorrhage money.

I think Hulsizer knows he's going to take it in the nads for the foreseeable future because this is a **** situation, and thus is only willing to go into the endeavor if Glendale and the taxpayers make every concession possible short of giving him the team for free....which they're all but doing. LOL

What a cool expression! Gotta remember that one.

 

[Jeffrey93]

I, quite simply, disagree with this stance. Blaming the market for a bankruptcy that was predicated on poor ownership is ridiculous. This is a whole new level of bad because the ownership group was a whole new level of bad at running a pro franchise. Plain and simple.

The fans were there in decent numbers for a team that was awful and had no direction. This is also when it wasn't nearly as discounted as it is now. You can't pawn the blame onto the market because the market was actually at a respectable number prior to the mess. There were plenty of teams that sucked and had less attendance than the Coyotes that aren't in this mess.

Right....Phoenix just happened to find the worst owners in sports history.....ever. Less attendance likely wasn't less ticket revenue though.

Last I checked most businesses don't get put into bankruptcy when they have "decent numbers". If Ownership was solely to blame and the market was not to blame....you would see a long line of people stepping up to buy this franchise....and with their own money to boot!

Those people aren't lining up. Why not? Because this franchise isn't in this mess because of Ownership....not ONLY because of Ownership.

If the Coyotes ownership was a 'whole new level of bad'.....prospective Owners would know they wouldn't be that bad and they would be quite capable of making this business a success in Phoenix. Right? So why is the only guy willing to take ownership of this team requiring it be bought for him by the city of Glendale?

It's such a great market for hockey....yet the one person willing to own the team isn't putting up his own money to do it. Kinda weird don't you think?

So blame Ownership for losses before this mess started...blame them for low attendance...blame them for everything you like. You can't blame them for there being not a single solitary soul willing to purchase this team where it is with their own money. Can you?

 

[Grumpz]

No I was kidding refering to the on ice product. Without a doubt MLSE is an extermley well run professional organization.

I too, was referring to the on ice product. In the context our our discussion, it would appear others feel a losing team is a solid excuse to NOT support a team.

If that's the case, I know of a local football team that shouldn't have any fans...however it's been in the black for 2 seasons.

 

[Retail1LO*]

I'll tell you one thing. It'll be very interesting to see what happens if this team stays.

I'm sure MH wants to make money, so I think most would agree that you can kiss the discounts goodbye.

If they can't average 16000 per game for the season, with free parking, and $25 dollar tickets that include food and drink, how are they going to average that when they have to pay full price?

There's no telling. Unless he can afford to start everyone on the cheap and slowly ramp up prices. Again, I guess it's all a matter of how capable this guy is of eating losses for the foreseeable future. I can't see how he can take over this team, and have folks coming in to higher prices, while being weened off free food and beverage. Who knows. Maybe there's an entire segment of desert dwellers sitting on their hands saying "Boy, I can't wait until we get a real owner so I can take all this money I've been saving and start spending it on the Coyotes.."

And that's assuming an owner that has to have the majority of his purchase subsidized can be considered a "real owner."

 

[Retail1LO*]

The only way you can blame ownership for the losses in Phoenix...is for putting a hockey club there to begin with. THAT...is the owners fault. And...as evidenced by the plethora of potential ownership candidates lining up around the block to pay whole hog for this team to keep it in an area where you're more likely to find a roadrunner than a patch of ice...there's more blame to be put on the market than ownership. If hockey worked on the darkside of the moon, there'd be people willing to pay for the opportunity to cash in. For as long as hockey is in the desert, you're going to have owners tryin to figure out how to make it viable there.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Right....Phoenix just happened to find the worst owners in sports history.....ever. Less attendance likely wasn't less ticket revenue though.

Last I checked most businesses don't get put into bankruptcy when they have "decent numbers". If Ownership was solely to blame and the market was not to blame....you would see a long line of people stepping up to buy this franchise....and with their own money to boot!

Those people aren't lining up. Why not? Because this franchise isn't in this mess because of Ownership....not ONLY because of Ownership.

If the Coyotes ownership was a 'whole new level of bad'.....prospective Owners would know they wouldn't be that bad and they would be quite capable of making this business a success in Phoenix. Right? So why is the only guy willing to take ownership of this team requiring it be bought for him by the city of Glendale?

It's such a great market for hockey....yet the one person willing to own the team isn't putting up his own money to do it. Kinda weird don't you think?

So blame Ownership for losses before this mess started...blame them for low attendance...blame them for everything you like. You can't blame them for there being not a single solitary soul willing to purchase this team where it is with their own money. Can you?

The market is only going to show up to the games. The market did so at a rate comparable to many other teams who did not go into bankruptcy and incur the same losses.

You can blame the ownership for the lack of new suitors due to the decision to put the team in Glendale. That's not an arrangement that can be avoided when the NHL wants to keep the team in this market.

 

[Retail1LO*]

Hey...I have an idea...why don't they relocate all of Glendale to Winnipeg? See how many "fair weather" fans come out to a game when it's -22F outside. LOL

 

[dronald]

And lets not forget one's in Toronto, Ontario, Canada...and one's in Glendale, Arizona, United States.

Oh trust me, we remember.

You have Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The Leafs have not won a Stanley cup in over 40 years and have not made the Playoffs since 2004. But hey, it's in Toronto, Ontario, Canada as you stated, so how bout this...?

Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Quebec City, Quebec, Canada.

Problem solved

 

[Retail1LO*]

Oh trust me, we remember.

You have Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The Leafs have not won a Stanley cup in over 40 years and have not made the Playoffs since 2004. But hey, it's in Toronto,Ontario, Canada as you stated, so how bout this...?

Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Quebec City, Quebec, Canada.

Problem solved

No, the Leafs haven't won a cup in the period of time since Phoenix or the Winnipeg Jets have been in the league COMBINED. And STILL they sell out, and aren't at risk of moving for a 2nd time in that time frame

Obviously on ice success doesn't fuel Toronto's attendance. Guess you just have to be somewhere where people give a rats ass about hockey. LOL

 

[peter sullivan]

fans of failing teams seem to always blame 'bad ownership'.....its a pretty common thread...would this not lead one to believe that instead of bad owners making bad markets maybe bad markets make bad owners?

low fan and corporate support leads to low payrolls which leads to low performing teams which leads to lower support, lower payrolls and lower performing teams....its an endless cycle.

i realize that hulsizer is the only option, but i find it funny that he is being held up as the long lost 'strong ownership' that the coyotes have needed to be successful.....if you took out an ad in the paper to look for an NHL owner, upon receiving his resume, you wouldn't even call him in for an interview.

he is not local, he is not wealthy, he has no experience running any kind of sports franchise, he is trying to swindle a free ride on the purchase....he is not even willing to put his own money into buying the team, what makes anyone believe that he will suddenly invest heavily into payroll?......what evidence is there at all that he will be any better at ownership than the others?

to me, he is pretty much the worst candidate possible to build a hockey market in arizona....the coyotes need deep pockets willing to spend on marketing and players...he needs to be able to withstand the inevitable huge losses he he will incur until a market is established...hulsizer could have owned this team 6 months ago had he been willing to put some of his own skin in the game and he might lose the team because of this lack of commitment....not great evidence that he will be a committed owner.

 

[crazed323]

With 5,113,149 million people in the metro area of Toronto and 4.1 million people in the metro area of Phoenix the population base is not incredibly disproportionate. Incredibly one city supports hockey well and one doesn't. The stats are from wikipedia, unfortunately it wouldn't tell me why Phoenix doesn't support hockey (or does).


Edit: It could be because temperatures can get to 120F sometimes. WOW.

 

[Donwood]

fans of failing teams seem to always blame 'bad ownership'.....its a pretty common thread...would this not lead one to believe that instead of bad owners making bad markets maybe bad markets make bad owners?

low fan and corporate support leads to low payrolls which leads to low performing teams which leads to lower support, lower payrolls and lower performing teams....its an endless cycle.

i realize that hulsizer is the only option, but i find it funny that he is being held up as the long lost 'strong ownership' that the coyotes have needed to be successful.....if you took out an ad in the paper to look for an NHL owner, upon receiving his resume, you wouldn't even call him in for an interview.

he is not local, he is not wealthy, he has no experience running any kind of sports franchise, he is trying to swindle a free ride on the purchase....he is not even willing to put his own money into buying the team, what makes anyone believe that he will suddenly invest heavily into payroll?......what evidence is there at all that he will be any better at ownership than the others?

to me, he is pretty much the worst candidate possible to build a hockey market in arizona....the coyotes need deep pockets willing to spend on marketing and players...he needs to be able to withstand the inevitable huge losses he he will incur until a market is established...hulsizer could have owned this team 6 months ago had he been willing to put some of his own skin in the game.

And all the meanwhile Bettman makes an ownership group with the 17th richest man in the world wait and possibly never give a team.

 

[Mr McV]

I have read over 25,000 posts in this thread, and I'm still waiting for the one where the COG says: This is what it will cost
This is what we get
These are the risks.

All I've seen so far is a smoke and mirror show.

 

[dronald]

No, the Leafs haven't won a cup in the period of time since Phoenix or the Winnipeg Jets have been in the league COMBINED. And STILL they sell out, and aren't at risk of moving for a 2nd time in that time frame

Obviously on ice success doesn't fuel Toronto's attendance. Guess you just have to be somewhere where people give a rats ass about hockey. LOL

Exactly, maybe I wasn't clear but you mentioned how one is in Canada... Put 3 more teams in Canada and maybe the NHL will make some more money, agree?

 

[Brodie]

Any closer to a resolution?

 

[crazed323]

Any closer to a resolution?

Not on any front.

 

[MaskedSonja]

I too, was referring to the on ice product. In the context our our discussion, it would appear others feel a losing team is a solid excuse to NOT support a team.

If that's the case, I know of a local football team that shouldn't have any fans...however it's been in the black for 2 seasons.

to and Phxprods: Yea I won't argue the on ice product

It's amazing though, even with the Canadian teams, could any other one miss the playoffs since the lockout and still have the success financially Toronto has? I don't even think Hab fans would tolerate that many years without the playoffs.

Course we all know MLSE doesn't WANT to win the Cup-because it means all the fans would go away, their lust for a cup solved...

 

[danishh]

With 5,113,149 million people in the metro area of Toronto and 4.1 million people in the metro area of Phoenix the population base is not incredibly disproportionate. Incredibly one city supports hockey well and one doesn't. The stats are from wikipedia, unfortunately it wouldn't tell me why Phoenix doesn't support hockey (or does).


Edit: It could be because temperatures can get to 120F sometimes. WOW.

it could also be because 4 of the most stable banks in the world are headquartered in toronto.


just because phoenix has a lot of people, doesnt mean that they have a lot of people with money and a good corporate ticket base.

 

[Coach]

Any closer to a resolution?

One day closer. We just don't know what day that will be.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

fans of failing teams seem to always blame 'bad ownership'.....its a pretty common thread...would this not lead one to believe that instead of bad owners making bad markets maybe bad markets make bad owners?

low fan and corporate support leads to low payrolls which leads to low performing teams which leads to lower support, lower payrolls and lower performing teams....its an endless cycle.

i realize that hulsizer is the only option, but i find it funny that he is being held up as the long lost 'strong ownership' that the coyotes have needed to be successful.....if you took out an ad in the paper to look for an NHL owner, upon receiving his resume, you wouldn't even call him in for an interview.

he is not local, he is not wealthy, he has no experience running any kind of sports franchise, he is trying to swindle a free ride on the purchase....he is not even willing to put his own money into buying the team, what makes anyone believe that he will suddenly invest heavily into payroll?......what evidence is there at all that he will be any better at ownership than the others?

to me, he is pretty much the worst candidate possible to build a hockey market in arizona....the coyotes need deep pockets willing to spend on marketing and players...he needs to be able to withstand the inevitable huge losses he he will incur until a market is established...hulsizer could have owned this team 6 months ago had he been willing to put some of his own skin in the game and he might lose the team because of this lack of commitment....not great evidence that he will be a committed owner.

As a market, there is no shortage in corporate support and people that can support the franchise as fans in the stands. It's up to the owner(s) and his organization to make it work. They're just like any other business that sells a product. The onus is on the team to create a model that works and sells itself to the customers and gets them to return. All the basic requirements are there in Phoenix.

I have no idea if Hulsizer is the right guy to make it work for Phoenix. I'm also not opposed to relocation when local options have been exhausted...which it is about to be...I just disagree with some people's views on the Phoenix market and the events that have led to where it is currently.