OT: Philadelphia Eagles (NFL): Playoffs - Eagles Still Pick Sixth, They Have A Coach

[Bob Clarke Fan Club]

Bears front runner for wentz but he wants to go to the colts?

https://sports-yahoo-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/nfl-rumors-chicago-bears-hung-033340414.html?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA=#aoh=16134916508351&csi=0&referrer=https://www.google.com&_tf=From %1$s&share=https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-rumors-chicago-bears-hung-033340414.html

Fingers crossed for Bears.

 

[deadhead]

If you don't like a player that's fine, but I keep seeing college vs pro systems tossed out there as if this means what it did 10 years ago. What specifically in Ohio St and BYU's scheme bothers you?

It's more of a general observation on college systems, most defenses in college don't have enough good athletes, so spread type systems can create mismatches that allow the one and run QBs to thrive. In the NFL, there are much better athletes at DB, so that first throw is easier to defend, and a lot of college QBs can't adjust and find their second and third options within 3 seconds or so. Now being able to run does help your floor in the short-run, but is not conducive to a long career, not just injury concerns, but it can become a crutch that hinders a QB's development.

Mariota is a prime example, awesome in college, awful in the pros.
I'm a Longhorn fan, so I remember Vince Young.
And of course as an Eagle fan, Cunningham and Vick, and even McNabb to some extent, who regressed after being seriously injured in 2005 and no longer able to depend on his legs to buy time.

 

[FLYguy3911]

There’s no discussion to be had around Lawrence being the level of QB prospect needed for a top 10 pick. On consensus, he’s in the Luck tier. It’s an impossible bar.

Fields has issues. If you end up liking him, it’s because you think he has enough arm strength to get the ball down the field. He’s certainly got great touch on deep balls, but what gives him even more margin for error is that he was historically accurate:



To me, the most concerning bit of the various ways he’s been pulled apart is that his time to throw Under Pressure is slightly higher than when not. That’s out of the ordinary in a negative manner. But he’s not Blaine Gabbert bailing out of throws either. His overall time to throw is high, but I think what Ohio St asks its QBs to do is partially at fault for that. I’ll go into more detail later in the process on this because I think it’s an important step in evaluating him moving forward.

I know running ability gets talked about often as raising the ceiling for QBs, but even more than that, it raises the floor on a game to game basis. In many ways, I’m done with early QBs who can’t move to some degree. That’s where the NFL keeps missing.

I'm far from a QB guru but my general negative observation with Fields was that it looked like he never had a ton of urgency in the pocket. His feet and release just seemed a bit on the slow and methodical side no matter the situation and I wonder what that looks like on the NFL side. I know the high sack rate was brought up before.

Besides the arm, that's why I've grown a slight preference towards Wilson. He's not as good of a runner, but he seems to have more juice in and around the pocket to possibly give you those off-script and off-platform throws more consistently.

 

[JoemAvs]

Exactly. I'm very against going TE in Round 1 in general. We're just at the point where I can't say he wouldn't be the best WR in this class. At the very least, he'd be WR2 behind Chase.

Schematically, having a TE who can uncover 1v1 with an NFL Corner is a chasm of difference from your average Round 1 TE. That's what makes Kelce special.

Meh. If they want to go for a pass catcher I want Chase.
Other option at #6 I'd like is Fields.
Trade down otherwise.
I can't talk myself into Pitts like other people do. He is a TE afterall and I think right now he is getting overhyped. Reminds me a ton of how everyone was calling OJ Howard the next Gronk or how people talked themselves into Hockenson. Great talent but IMO not as good as people make him out to be and due to position not worth the high pick especially with Goedert already on the team..

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I'm far from a QB guru but my general negative observation with Fields was that it looked like he never had a ton of urgency in the pocket. His feet and release just seemed a bit on the slow and methodical side no matter the situation and I wonder what that looks like on the NFL side. I know the high sack rate was brought up before.

Besides the arm, that's why I've grown a slight preference towards Wilson. He's not as good of a runner, but he seems to have more juice in and around the pocket to possibly give you those off-script and off-platform throws more consistently.

Something always stuck in my craw about Fields and I think this may have been it. I couldn't describe what it was - just something seemed off to me - and it felt like something to do with rhythm or whatever, if that makes sense, and maybe it was the same thing you are talking about. Having said that, I didn't watch him enough to have a super strong opinion.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm far from a QB guru but my general negative observation with Fields was that it looked like he never had a ton of urgency in the pocket. His feet and release just seemed a bit on the slow and methodical side no matter the situation and I wonder what that looks like on the NFL side. I know the high sack rate was brought up before.

Besides the arm, that's why I've grown a slight preference towards Wilson. He's not as good of a runner, but he seems to have more juice in and around the pocket to possibly give you those off-script and off-platform throws more consistently.

That is my concern with OSU QBs. Those guys have so much time to do whatever they want behind strong line play that their internal clocks are absolutely broken when they get to the NFL and then they have to play at quadruple the speed they usually think at.

Haskins had the same negatives coming into the NFL too.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That is my concern with OSU QBs. Those guys have so much time to do whatever they want behind strong line play that their internal clocks are absolutely broken when they get to the NFL and then they have to play at quadruple the speed they usually think at.

Haskins had the same negatives coming into the NFL too.

Wilson played behind a better line than Fields full-stop. The top tier of OLs this year was roughly Notre Dame, BYU, and Virginia Tech. PFF thinks Buffalo was up there with them, but I sure as hell didn't watch any of that team.

I know you have Ohio St PTSD, but this would basically disqualify every Bama, Georgia, Ohio St, Clemson, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, and BYU QB from your board every year.

I'm far from a QB guru but my general negative observation with Fields was that it looked like he never had a ton of urgency in the pocket. His feet and release just seemed a bit on the slow and methodical side no matter the situation and I wonder what that looks like on the NFL side. I know the high sack rate was brought up before.

Besides the arm, that's why I've grown a slight preference towards Wilson. He's not as good of a runner, but he seems to have more juice in and around the pocket to possibly give you those off-script and off-platform throws more consistently.

I currently also have Wilson 2 fwiw, but I haven't jumped into the deep end yet either.

One thing I will say for Fields is that an extremely high percentage of the time, Ohio St has WR-read concepts built into their plays and that often the optionality is very far downfield. So some of it is him waiting for WRs to reach the fulcrum of their pattern. But not all of it. I don't have the technical expertise required to tell you what percentage it is.

 

[FLYguy3911]

That is my concern with OSU QBs. Those guys have so much time to do whatever they want behind strong line play that their internal clocks are absolutely broken when they get to the NFL and then they have to play at quadruple the speed they usually think at.

Haskins had the same negatives coming into the NFL too.

I feel like at some point you have to consider that Fields had the choice to go anywhere in the country and Haskins almost went to Rutgers. That has to count for something.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Haskins was a consensus 4* & top 100 player in his class. Penn State & Ohio State were after him pretty hard initially but other QB’s jumped in before him. Ohio State ultimately jumped back in late & flipped him from Maryland.

So he wasn’t a complete schlub but obviously Fields was a consensus *5 #1-2 player overall in his entire class.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I’d imagine one detail of concern for Haskins is/was just his one year of starter experience. Not a whole lot of success stories with one year starters.

 

[Chinatown88]

 

[FLYguy3911]

Haskins also had no mobility which puts a lot of pressure on a young QB.

 

[renberg]

A fair amount of the criticisms of Buckeye QBs rings true to me. Their OL is usually strong enough to allow their QBs to sit back and pick apart weak B1G and scrub MAC opponents. Then there is the quality of their receivers which, again, is very good at running routes and then making plays. OSU always has a dominant ground game which helps its passing game work since the Buckeyes rarely end up,in a position where they have to pass the ball.
It gets down to this, name the last Buckeye QB that succeeded in the pros? Secondly, Kirby Smart decided that Jake Fromm was a better QB than Fields twice. If Fields was a top five or so NFL draftee, that would never have happened.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Wilson played behind a better line than Fields full-stop. The top tier of OLs this year was roughly Notre Dame, BYU, and Virginia Tech. PFF thinks Buffalo was up there with them, but I sure as hell didn't watch any of that team.

I know you have Ohio St PTSD, but this would basically disqualify every Bama, Georgia, Ohio St, Clemson, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, and BYU QB from your board every year.



I currently also have Wilson 2 fwiw, but I haven't jumped into the deep end yet either.

One thing I will say for Fields is that an extremely high percentage of the time, Ohio St has WR-read concepts built into their plays and that often the optionality is very far downfield. So some of it is him waiting for WRs to reach the fulcrum of their pattern. But not all of it. I don't have the technical expertise required to tell you what percentage it is.

Incidentally, I'm also wary of all the schools you mentioned for this exact reason. It's a harder adjustment to go from a talent-dominant school to an NFL where that isn't gonna be the case. Especially since chances are good you're being drafted high. And chances are very good that you will not be given enough time to adapt and develop. The NFL success rates for players coming out of these schools is abysmal. None of them have been "QB U" for 30+ years now.

I wanna note that I was saying this exact stuff when Haskins was drafted, too. So it's less OSU PTSD than it was my predictions coming to pass and confirming my anecdotal and surface-researched observations.

 

[Protest]

I'm not a huge fan of Fields at the NFL level, but he isn't Haskins. I think Fields can succeed in the league even if I don't expect him too, but I don't know how you could look at Haskins in college and think he was an NFL QB.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm not a huge fan of Fields at the NFL level, but he isn't Haskins. I think Fields can succeed in the league even if I don't expect him too, but I don't know how you could look at Haskins in college and think he was an NFL QB.

Snyder can do anything.

 

[GKJ]

One thing people seem to be learning in this town, because it doesn’t happen often, is how much leverage players have forcing their way out in the NFL. Howie isn’t used to negotiating in a vacuum.

 

[deadhead]

Players don't really have leverage when you don't care about winning.

Lurie and Howie have made it clear they're rebuilding, so while it seems they'd like to send Wentz to Indy where he has a better chance of succeeding (since they haven't sent him to Chicago yet) they're not going to give him away, because they also have a responsibility to the team to garner the best return.

Wentz can sulk, and nix a Chicago deal, but the Eagles can just decide to keep him rather than let Indy lowball them.
And then Wentz has to work his butt off, because next year he'll be 29 and there will be less opportunities for him to start elsewhere if he doesn't convince people 202o was a fluke.

Since the Eagles would have to eat the money in any case, they can let him sit on the bench for a couple years as a high priced back up and then cut him. Sure the Philly media would go crazy, but it would soon blow over.

It's basically a game of chicken, they're willing to trade him to Indy for less than Chicago or another team might offer, but not a LOT less.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

One thing people seem to be learning in this town, because it doesn’t happen often, is how much leverage players have forcing their way out in the NFL. Howie isn’t used to negotiating in a vacuum.

Once a player wants out, it's basically done.

One thing Philly fans are losing me at...is that they're whining and complaining about Wentz for this situation and being a "baby" about wanting to go to Indy...

If Carson REALLY wanted to screw this up for us, he could go on his Twitter and say "I'm not playing for the Bears" and that's all it would take to cut Howie's legs out. Carson not speaking at this point helps us so much, but fans are begging to find a reason to hate this dude.

 

[GKJ]

Players don't really have leverage when you don't care about winning.

Lurie and Howie have made it clear they're rebuilding, so while it seems they'd like to send Wentz to Indy where he has a better chance of succeeding (since they haven't sent him to Chicago yet) they're not going to give him away, because they also have a responsibility to the team to garner the best return.

Wentz can sulk, and nix a Chicago deal, but the Eagles can just decide to keep him rather than let Indy lowball them.
And then Wentz has to work his butt off, because next year he'll be 29 and there will be less opportunities for him to start elsewhere if he doesn't convince people 202o was a fluke.

Since the Eagles would have to eat the money in any case, they can let him sit on the bench for a couple years as a high priced back up and then cut him. Sure the Philly media would go crazy, but it would soon blow over.

It's basically a game of chicken, they're willing to trade him to Indy for less than Chicago or another team might offer, but not a LOT less.

Until they talk to him and rebuild a path as opposed to a bridge, Wentz being an eagle next year is not an option.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

File this under 'Doesn't Really Matter' but figure i'll post it for discussion sake:

 

[deadhead]

NFL source knows Eagles will take QB with #6. Sure. Like the Eagles even know which, if any, QB they like in this draft, since Sirianni has had so much time to study the college QBs. Howie is not drafting a QB without his new HC and QB coach being on board with the choice.

I'm just glad Sirianni and not Doug is advising Howie on this decision.

Howie is not going to give Wentz away to Indy, Ballard is known for being a tough negotiator, but Howie ain't a patsy. If all Indy is offering is a 2nd rd pick and spare change, there's no incentive for Howie to jump on it. Eat the bonus, shift some other money into 2022, because in the end you're gonna have to use both years to eat dead money while you rebuild. You're not going to make a big FA push until winter 2023 in any case (why waste 2 years of FA contracts while you're rebuilding to go 8-8 instead of 6-10?). And Wentz has no choice but to be a good citizen, otherwise he's suspended and they save beaucoup bucks.

 

[renberg]

Wentz has some leverage in that he has publicly stated that he doesn’t want to play here any longer. After that he has nothing.
The Eagles don’t benefit that much cap wise if he’s here or some other place. He doesn’t get to say where he plays. If the Birds don’t get a deal that they like for him, he stays here. If he holds out, he doesn’t get paid. He signed a contract with Philly; money for performance. He knew when he signed it that it could be moved without his approval but he signed it.
Frankly, after all the stuff that he and his agent have thrown into the media machine, it would be fun to watch him have to show up in camp after not being traded. Might make the TO saga look tame.

 

[wankstifier]

Has anyone asked Mike Trout how he feels about all of this?

 

[CutOnDime97]

I am officially out on Justin Fields. I am open to Wilson but still prefer Chase or Smith with #6.

Something where they trade down and end up with Mac Jones and Jaylen Waddle would be interesting.