OT: Philadelphia 76ers and the NBA (basketball)

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

Prior thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=133536847#post133536847

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[Embiid]

Hinkie for President!

 

[Rebels57]

Process Complete.

Playoffs Engaged.

 

[Jtown]

damn i just wrote a very long response that has now disappeared.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

no, actually. Everyone was ranting and raving about the coburn deal. I said it was fair value and by tampa going to the cup it made it worst. The only redeeming aspect of that deal was that hexy moved up to get konency. But imagine the player he wouldve gotten had he just stayed there. That is what you should evaluate that trade on

So your argument is that you can't use something that happened afterward to judge the trade (I agree), but Tampa going on a playoff run made the deal a lesser one? Do you see the logical disconnect here?

 

[Jack Straw]

I think it's fair to say that Fultz is the best guard prospect to come along since Kyrie Irving. He is the consensus #1 in a very strong draft, AND he is a perfect fit for the Sixers. This is more than just a trade from #3 to #1.

 

[The Madrigal]

So your argument is that you can't use something that happened afterward to judge the trade (I agree), but Tampa going on a playoff run made the deal a lesser one? Do you see the logical disconnect here?

Logic and his points don't seem to go very well together. For example, he said Ben Simmons might not end up being a very good NBA player because he can't shoot, but then later said (in the same post) the Sixers could have just stayed put at 3 and taken Josh Jackson.

 

[Jtown]

So your argument is that you can't use something that happened afterward to judge the trade (I agree), but Tampa going on a playoff run made the deal a lesser one? Do you see the logical disconnect here?

yes i do. and you're right. But looking at it from a value standpoint. we traded coburn and got fair value. I was not in love with the trade nor did i hate it. we had to trade him and in terms of value i though hexy did average. that is all

 

[The Madrigal]

I think it's fair to say that Fultz is the best guard prospect to come along since Kyrie Irving. He is the consensus #1 in a very strong draft, AND he is a perfect fit for the Sixers. This is more than just a trade from #3 to #1.

 

[Jtown]

I think it's fair to say that Fultz is the best guard prospect to come along since Kyrie Irving. He is the consensus #1 in a very strong draft, AND he is a perfect fit for the Sixers. This is more than just a trade from #3 to #1.

fultz is firmly in the same group as deangelo and ball. IN fact two things hurt ball a lot his father and his shooting form, but ball is going to be a stud and i would have gladly taken him. Ball is going to be a special special special player.

 

[FLYguy3911]

no, actually. Everyone was ranting and raving about the coburn deal. I said it was fair value and by tampa going to the cup it made it worst. The only redeeming aspect of that deal was that hexy moved up to get konency. But imagine the player he wouldve gotten had he just stayed there. That is what you should evaluate that trade on.

Imagine if the best defenseman in the trade was the "throw in" and not the one the deal was centered around...oh wait...

To basketball though you still didn't address my question, how are you developing all these top picks?

How are you paying them all?

What is the point of hoarding all these 1st round picks?

Is it to find a star?

If you think you found your star in this draft, why aren't you doing everything you can to get that guy?

Do you feel like having your fate in the hands of the ping pong machine again?

Most people think next year is heavy on bigs again, when are you going to get that perimeter guy? Does he fit with the core as well as Fultz?

How often is the 1st overall pick available?

 

[Striiker]

I'd like to just jump in real fast and point out that trades shouldn't be judged as a win/loss based on team vs team. It should be "are the Flyers in a better position pre-trade or post-trade", and then separately, "are the Lightning in a better position pre-trade or post-trade".

That's why trades can be win/win if both teams walk away with exactly what they wanted (like both teams did in that trade). We got a younger defensemen and a pick (worth more to us than an aging vet), TB got a vet defensemen who could help them in that playoff run (worth more to them than a defensemen who was out for the playoffs and a draft pick). Win/win.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Forget the argument, let's just enjoy Embiid.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

Are we acting like Fultz being a perfect fit with Simmons and Embiid isn't worth giving up one protected pick out of the surplus? In addition to that, It's not uncommon to hear the opinion that Fultz is the best guard prospect since Irving in 2011.

 

[Jack Straw]

fultz is firmly in the same group as deangelo and ball. IN fact two things hurt ball a lot his father and his shooting form, but ball is going to be a stud and i would have gladly taken him. Ball is going to be a special special special player.

Well, if you really believe that there's not much point in debating. Nobody seriously believes that Ball will be picked before Fultz. Nobody seriously believes anybody will be picked before Fultz for that matter. And the 2015 draft wasn't considered as strong as this one and many if not most people expected Okafor, whose flaws were known, to be taken before Russell.

Or do you mean De'Aaron (Fox) rather than DeAngelo Russell? I love Fox but he is not in the same tier as Fultz as a prospect. He could turn out to be as good but he has to show that he has a consistant shot from outside and that he can play off the ball. Fultz doesn't have to prove either of those things. Fox is also smaller (height and weight) with a significantly shorter wingspan.

 

[The Madrigal]

I'd like to just jump in real fast and point out that trades shouldn't be judged as a win/loss based on team vs team. It should be "are the Flyers in a better position pre-trade or post-trade", and then separately, "are the Lightning in a better position pre-trade or post-trade".

That's why trades can be win/win if both teams walk away with exactly what they wanted (like both teams did in that trade). We got a younger defensemen and a pick, TB got a vet defensemen who could help them in that playoff run. Win/win.

At the time, yes, and I agree with your point that a lot of times trades are good for both teams but people have to proclaim someone a "winner." I always thought the Flyers get tremendous value for Coburn though. Coburn is/was big and fast but he isn't physical and has little to no hockey sense.

Either way in the long run it has certainly benefited the Flyers more. Just a couple of years later and they have the better defenseman and a really good young NHL player to show for it.

 

[Striiker]

At the time, yes, and I agree with your point that a lot of times trades are good for both teams but people have to proclaim someone a "winner." I always thought the Flyers get tremendous value for Coburn though. Coburn is/was big and fast but he isn't physical and has little to no hockey sense.

Either way in the long run it has certainly benefited the Flyers more. Just a couple of years later and they have the better defenseman and a really good young NHL player to show for it.

Yeah, in hindsight it looks even more crazy now that Gudas turned out as great for us as he has. I was excited to just get a 1st round pick at the time, I never imagined Gudas would be this good.

 

[Jtown]

Imagine if the best defenseman in the trade was the "throw in" and not the one the deal was centered around...oh wait...

To basketball though you still didn't address my question, how are you developing all these top picks?

How are you paying them all?

What is the point of hoarding all these 1st round picks?

Is it to find a star?

If you think you found your star in this draft, why aren't you doing everything you can to get that guy?

Do you feel like having your fate in the hands of the ping pong machine again?

Most people think next year is heavy on bigs again, when are you going to get that perimeter guy?

How often is the 1st overall pick available?

come on now, who saw gudas playing as well as he has. Gudas before he was traded had been terrible and now as coming off an injury. the stars aligned on that one and we are better for it!

That was hinkie's whole thing. Scouting is imperfect. You need to accumulate picks so you have as many chances at finding that star. Falling in love with a player is a sure fire was to cloud your judgement, and giving up assets compounds the problem.

sports comes down to the ping pong ball machine.

lemieux, crosby , malkin,

you know what the blackhawks are without kane? a contender. with kane? a dynasty.

our needs at the pf c position are not solidified. embiid has played 33 games in 3 years. you can't assume we are set at the center position

 

[Jtown]

Well, if you really believe that there's not much point in debating. Nobody seriously believes that Ball will be picked before Fultz. Nobody seriously believes anybody will be picked before Fultz for that matter. And the 2015 draft wasn't considered as strong as this one and many if not most people expected Okafor, whose flaws were known, to be taken before Russell.

Or do you mean De'Aaron (Fox) rather than DeAngelo Russell? I love Fox but he is not in the same tier as Fultz as a prospect. He could turn out to be as good but he has to show that he has a consistant shot from outside and that he can play off the ball. Fultz doesn't have to prove either of those things. Fox is also smaller (height and weight) with a significantly shorter wingspan.

Let me tell you this. Ball is going to be jason kidd 2.0 ok. He is your traditional ball movement pg. Fultz is your harden, russell, brandon roy type point guard.

its really a matter of preference but to think that ball will not be as impactful as fultz is wrong. i meant deangelo russell

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That was hinkie's whole thing. Scouting is imperfect. You need to accumulate picks so you have as many chances at finding that star. Falling in love with a player is a sure fire was to cloud your judgement, and giving up assets compounds the problem.

Yes, you need a quantity of picks, but sticking rigidly to that tenement is assuredly not what he meant. We have video record of them turning down draft capital from the Kings to trade down.

The Sixers tried to move up in the lottery multiple times under Hinkie. I promise you.

 

[Jtown]

Yes, you need a quantity of picks, but sticking rigidly to that tenement is assuredly not what he meant. We have video record of them turning down draft capital from the Kings to trade down.

The Sixers tried to move up in the lottery multiple times under Hinkie. I promise you.

right because one of the best basketball prospects ever fell into their laps .

 

[FLYguy3911]

come on now, who saw gudas playing as well as he has. Gudas before he was traded had been terrible and now as coming off an injury. the stars aligned on that one and we are better for it!

Well there were some people in that thread telling people Gudas was better than he was being made out to be. He wasn't terrible. He got hurt.

Back to bball....

That was hinkie's whole thing. Scouting is imperfect. You need to accumulate picks so you have as many chances at finding that star. Falling in love with a player is a sure fire was to cloud your judgement, and giving up assets compounds the problem.

Huh? Are you talking about falling in love with a prospect in the literal sense? Personality? If you think you have a chance to get the next James Harden, for the next 9 years+, you do it. Remember how much people thought Houston gave up to get Harden? Turns out, they gave up nothing.

sports comes down to the ping pong ball machine.

lemieux, crosby , malkin,

you know what the blackhawks are without kane? a contender. with kane? a dynasty.

All #1 picks (except for Malkin who goes #1 in every draft but 04 and 05). Guess what? The 2018 and 2019 picks are #1 protected so you don't have to worry.

our needs at the pf c position are not solidified. embiid has played 33 games in 3 years. you can't assume we are set at the center position

Doesn't matter, as long as Embiid has a pulse and is on the roster he is going to get preferential treatment (as he should). He's going to get a max contract too. Which goes back to the point that you still haven't address, if you are going to use all these high picks, how are you going to develop them all in a 10 man (max) rotation?

There are a lot of bad teams in this league and LA and SAC have no incentive to tank now that the picks are unprotected. We are assuming these picks are going to be top 5 picks, but what if they are 8-10? You'll kick yourself for not pulling the trigger.

 

[Jack Straw]

Let me tell you this. Ball is going to be jason kidd 2.0 ok. He is your traditional ball movement pg. Fultz is your harden, russell, brandon roy type point guard.

its really a matter of preference but to think that ball will not be as impactful as fultz is wrong. i meant deangelo russell

Well, there are two different arguments here. One is simply draft position- that BC paid too much to jump over one team. As I said, every GM in the league would have paid that price last year to go from #3 to #1. Every single one.

The talent evaluation argument is a different story. If you don't believe that Fultz was worth that price then you're entitled to that opinion. Virtually no one agrees with that though. Virtually everything I've read from people analyzing the trade, including Boston sportswriters, are questioning Ainge's judgement more than Colangelo's. If Colangelo believes that Fulz has the potential to be a franchise player (which he said at his PC today) then he was justified in paying that price. But he didn't make that decision based on an abstract idea of the difference between a first and a third, he made it based on the difference of what he believes Fultz will bring vs what someone else would bring.

 

[Jtown]

Well there were some people in that thread telling people Gudas was better than he was being made out to be. He wasn't terrible. He got hurt.

Back to bball....

Huh? Are you talking about falling in love with a prospect in the literal sense? Personality? If you think you have a chance to get the next James Harden, for the next 9 years+, you do it. Remember how much people thought Houston gave up to get Harden? Turns out, they gave up nothing.

All #1 picks. Guess what? The 2018 and 2019 picks are #1 protected so you don't have to worry.



Doesn't matter, as long as Embiid has a pulse and is on the roster he is going to get preferential treatment (as he should). He's going to get a max contract too. Which goes back to the point that you still haven't address, if you are going to use all these high picks, how are you going to develop them all in a 10 man (max) rotation?

There are a lot of bad teams in this league and LA and SAC have no incentive to tank now that the picks are unprotected. We are assuming these picks are going to be top 5 picks, but what if they are 8-10? You'll kick yourself for not pulling the trigger.

you can't say that he is the next james harden. we don't know what he is going to be like. It is a guess. malking wasn't a number 1, neither will the flyers pick be a number 1. but imagine losing that pick because of a trade to move up to draft yakupov. when you could have stayed at 3 and drafted galchenyuk. ouch

as long as embiid is on the roster? if he has another foot , knee , injury he may not be on the roster. Embiids next serious injury may just be his last. LA and Sac can tank without trying, that is how bad they are. LA has hope atleast because of young talent.



Boston was not going to draft fultz and not going to draft ball. So let's play a game. And predict how the draft would fall going forward. Boston: Josh Jackson , Lakers : Fultz, Philly : Ball.

im damn good with that. i much rather have ball and all of our assets than give up a high pick and get fultz.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

right because one of the best basketball prospects ever fell into their laps .

No, not just Embiid. Things I can tell you for a fact:

They turned down offers for 11 in 2013.

They tried to move up in 2015. Many times.