Discussion in 'Philadelphia Flyers' started by MiamiScreamingEagles, Mar 27, 2019.
Thanks for this info.
Holy hindsight. I know Grubauer's been on a nice run so you've been sticking your chest out lately, but he had an .890 SV% at the trade deadline!! And the main reason people didn't want to invest a whole lot into the goalie position last offseason, was because arguably the best goalie prospect in the world was turning pro. And what do you know, he was ready for the NHL a lot sooner than we all thought and he was great.
If we are going to decide if moves were smart or not based on hindsight, we know know Grubauer went for pick #47 and a cap dump who almost certainly would have played games for us over better players. So Grubauer's trade value was even less than #47. Trading the 19th overall pick for him would have been a poor move no matter how you want to slice it. No one here was pounding the table for JOB at 19. If the Flyers had drafted Miller, or Sandin, or traded back and grabbed a guy like Beaudin are we even having this discussion?
The Flyers may have whiffed on the pick, but aren't you the one telling us all the time that you don't want the Flyers to take low-ceiling guys? Well here we are. The Flyers put their bags on the table and swung for the fences when safer, easier to project players were on the board. You can't have it both ways. The Flyers are still way ahead on the amateur side of things.
With Grubs, yes I wanted him and was ok with trading 19 for him+. I could be wrong in remembering, but I don't think it for straight up. But as i said, could be wrong.
I wanted a NHL goalie with upside and who could stay healthy and was willing to pay for it because Neuvirth never should have been trusted. And I know it's ignored, but you can trade for someone....and then trade him later after a few years. I didn't think Hart would be up this year at all so was thinking it would help us this year, next year have Hart as the backup and then Hart the starter the following year. And yes it was a big price, with him maybe we make the playoffs. Who knows.
But I also wanted multiple MORE moves. I wanted a C. I wanted a Dman. We did neither of those either. Maybe if we had, we would not be watching the playoffs. But hey, it got Hak fired so that is a positive.
As for low ceiling guys, it all depends. I don't say we should always go after risk picks. But we should be do some. Was JOB really a high ceiling risk pick? Or just a risk pick? Miller weems to fit this bill much more.
I have praised Hextall and team for our drafting. It's been the best thing they did. But they are not without criticism. And when you draft the 2nd most questionable pick in the 1st round, expect to get raked over the coals if you are wrong. And hell, they still might not be with JOB. But it certainly has not started well and if he becomes anything for us in the future, it seems more like a bonus now instead of a given.
But hey, we have a nice floor guy in Ginning!!
Kupari was always the obvious pick there. Still a head scratcher
At least we are in a position where we have:
Giroux Cout TK
JVR Patrick Voracek
Lindblom Frost Farabee
...for our top 9 for the next 3 years minimum if we want it. So it's not like we "need" others to hit within the next 1-2 year except for Frost and Farabee. And if we sign a UFA, that could become only 1 spot and then we start replacing from there. So everyone else is going to have to prove they deserve a spot in the top 9 and have 2+ years to prove it.
So someone like Ratcliffe, we could leave in the AHL for 2 years if we want and see how expansion is playing out, then make moves then. Who whole "overcook" prospects could be a real thing the next 2 years except for the 4th liners.
Even after the trade announcement I didn’t really care. The odds of Hextall buying Orpik out & Hakstol playing him as #6-7 were not high.
JVR - Couts - Giroux
Lindblom - Patrick - Voracek
Farabee - Frost - TK
To move Giroux back to LW, you need to move TK up to the first line and trade JVR.
I like these lines better.
Giving Patrick JVR and Voracek as his wings right now is putting too much on his shoulders, in 2-3 years, maybe another matter.
Yeah...not really. These things usually go two ways. Either you get a steal and you have no interest in moving the player. Or he bombs and his value goes in the toilet. Grubauer is/was not good enough to give up a 1st for and put in the way of Hart. He's an average goalie. He's going to give you stretches like pre-March where he's a liability and stretches post-March where he can be good. No goalie survived Hakstol's PK and that was pointed out last summer. I don't see why Grubauer would have been any different. For the record, I was fine with a deal involving our 2, but I can count on a couple fingers how many goalies are worth a 1st round pick in my eyes.
If Hart had bombed this year in the AHL, by all means explore avenues to find a long-term answer, but they had to leave open the possibility that this kid was the real deal and was going to make his mark sooner than later...and they were right. If they had to miss the playoffs one year while every goalie in the organization got hurt, so be it.
Lol what? They just took a risk to take one? They obviously saw potential in him to possibly be a top 6 player someday and believe it or not, he does show the ability in spurts. I mean if you look at the forwards that went after him, there aren't many slam dunk All-Stars. I'll believe in Kupari when he does it in the NHL. Same for Veleno. I think we all liked Berggren, but he was only playing Swedish Juniors and dealt with his own injuries this year. Same for Bokk minus the injuries. Considering how the board fell, the value was in the defensemen, which is the opposite of what happened with the Ginning pick. I doubt very much the Flyers take O'Brien if they just had #19. But when you get one of the safest players in the draft a few picks prior and have one of the deepest prospect pools in the league, it's OK to take a chance.
You can criticize picks. A few of us killed the Ginning pick the moment it was made because it made no sense. It just went against everything they seemed to value in defensemen (amateur side anyway). Just make sure your reasoning is sound and consistent. It doesn't make sense to bash the O'Brien pick because it was a "reach" and he just had a miserable season. Sanheim and Frost were "reaches" and seem to be working out just fine. What specifically about the player did you not like? If you have questions about his skillset or hockey IQ that will prevent him from being a productive pro, please enlighten us, otherwise it comes off as second guessing with the benefit of hindsight.
I had the same reaction to the JOB pick I had when Hexy hired Hakstol; "I don't understand it, but Hexy has to know something here."
Sometimes he did. Sometimes he didn't.
Hard to argue with that.
My only consolation is that (in my opinion) Sam had this team made two camps ago. After all the travails, he could come around to be a valuable player.
Rubstov might fit in that category, too.
I am not going to keep going on about this as it is what it is. But IMO, JOB was a big risk, without the big reward. It was on draft day...nothing to do with today.
Hell in the mock draft our board did, JOB went 61st. I had Montreal and had 3 2nd rounders, and passed on him 3 times. Few of us knew much about him so that certainly played into it. But the Flyers scouts are PAID to be right. When you reach on someone and are wrong, why is wrong to criticize? Just like the Minny 1st last year. People ripped it as soon as it happened. With JOB, people were hopeful that the Flyers mgt saw him more than everyone else seemed to. And as I said, they still could be right. But right now, early returns are poor.
But as I said, lets move on. We are lucky that we appear to be in a position to not "need" that pick to hit. Let's just hit on this years. Safety in numbers.
His play at the WJC sticks out as an example of what he can do when used properly. We don't know what happened at
Providence. It could be that the books got in the way so he bolted. He might just want to play hockey at this point in his career and didn't care for the student life. Marody fell into that category. Let's just see where he is a year from now. He might just go from the BCHL to the pros and pass on Juniors or another stint in college.
I remember when lightning fans wrote off yanni gourde. Stuck in the ECHL, then ahl and finally got into the nhl. Puts up good numbers too and hasn’t been sent back to the ahl or ECHL. It’s to early to write him off yet.
However, starting to get the idea of hextall and Pryor drafted based on nepotism. Cates, sanheim, and O’Brien have some family connection to hextall/Pryor. I believe there are more prospects with that connection. Just throwing this out there to see what others think.
Edit double post
I doubt it, if that were the case, the CHL would be the path
Not always, dangling around 16-18 year olds as 20 year old. I know I played hockey and loved to do it!! It doesn’t make you better. I lean towards ncaa over chl. Systems, systems and systems. Shock that he left but we shall see
Good lord was JOB a bad pick. Pathetic.
It would be stupid for the Flyers to sign him to a pro contract. Let him walk and take the 2nd.
Also, what are you talking about with the WJC? Not only was he terrible, but he was barely even "used," let alone "used properly."
We'll see in two years, what JOB needs next year is to get healthy, get stronger, get his mojo back.
Then go back to college for one year, excel and go pro.
Which would put him on the expected schedule, coming out of HS it was going to take 2-3 years for him to make it.
You can move on, but what is this based on? I'm guessing because you brought up an HF Mock Draft, you are using consensus rankings to make that case. If so I would point to people saying similar things about the Morgan Frost pick just a year earlier.
Again you can criticize the pick, but you're not very specific in your criticism. Just because he had a poor season? Was it because he was from high school? Was it because he was old for his grade? Was he too small? Not skilled enough? Not quick enough? Lacking Hockey IQ? Johansson was playing pro hockey. He played in every major tournament up until he was drafted. Everyone saw him play. You could tell he lacked the skill and smarts to be an impact player. Similar to Ginning, just 30 picks earlier.
I wholeheartedly believe that he should report to Shawinigan. Yes, he'd only be eligible for 1 season, but this would be 1 season where he can play against better competition than the USHL and BCHL (obvs). Then after next season, why not turn pro and play with the Phantoms? Maybe he can even make it in the show, who knows. Shawinigan should have a mid-tier team with quality young prospects next season without Jay. With him, however, the sky is the limit.
Maybe trade him ASAP
Writing off O'Brien after one injury plagued season in college is asinine. There is no need to do anything with him right now so lets just see how he does next year.
Making the pick at all was a bad decision when there were potentially deals out their to help the team, apparently a big deal that Hextall passed on that upset the higher ups. ROR perhaps? The fact that the prospect taken there is trending poorly right now just adds salt into the wound.
It was Panarin per LeBrun. No one has reported what was in the offer. I would strongly doubt it was for chiefly futures given how Columbus approached the season.
I think I've seen enough from you.
#19 would have been overpayment for a goalie like Grubauer, but I liked the idea of moving it for Athanasiou. Of course, I have no idea if Detroit would have been interested.
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