Prospect Info: Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Jrs., Int'l, etc.

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Adtar02

@NateThompson44 is a bum
Apr 8, 2012
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We're very far apart on Zamula. You have Samuel Morin 7 spots higher than Zamula? Morin is 5 years older than him, and with a fraction of his puck skills and smarts. I don't get it.

A lot of what made Morin intriguing 5 years ago barely matters in today's NHL. I'm not buying it. I think looking at the last couple NHL drafts makes it pretty clear what skill-sets are coveted currently.

The only advantage Morin might have is skating. Even then, Zamula's skating is still strong, and will only get better with natural maturity.

As for Zamula's upside, I don't know, maybe we think differently. Putting a rigid distinction between #3 upside or #4 upside seems damn near impossible when dealing with a lanky, 18 year old, physically immature kid showing such rapid improvements lately.

A lot of stuff in your rankings I disagree with. Which is fine and natural. But this one seems really off the wall.
I have only ever seen people say good things about Morin s hockey iq. Where is his smarts coming into to question.
 

Appleyard

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Mar 5, 2010
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We're very far apart on Zamula. You have Samuel Morin 7 spots higher than Zamula? Morin is 5 years older than him, and with a fraction of his puck skills and smarts. I don't get it.

A lot of what made Morin intriguing 5 years ago barely matters in today's NHL. I'm not buying it. I think looking at the last couple NHL drafts makes it pretty clear what skill-sets are coveted currently.

The only advantage Morin might have is skating. Even then, Zamula's skating is still strong, and will only get better with natural maturity.

As for Zamula's upside, I don't know, maybe we think differently. Putting a rigid distinction between #3 upside or #4 upside seems damn near impossible when dealing with a lanky, 18 year old, physically immature kid showing such rapid improvements lately.

A lot of stuff in your rankings I disagree with. Which is fine and natural. But this one seems really off the wall.

I think they both have #4 upside... and Morin is a lot closer to being able to play in the NHL. He can skate, was good in the AHL (better than Hagg for me), and has a nice enough outlet.

For Zamula I just struggle to see his 5v5 offense translating to become more than a ~25 point NHL Dman if he does not see regular PP time in the pro's, and if he does not then I very much doubt he is going to be more than a #4 Dman. And his D is good but not a big + even in WHL.

He is not Myers or Sanheim who were even in draft+1 very creative in NZ and OZ at 5v5, and he does not have the same offensive drive at 5v5 to get into the play. He uses his skating too little at 5v5 going up ice once he gets the blue-line it is frustrating, and he is static too much in the OZ. If he changes that going forward then I can see more offensive upside.

Morin (0.37) and Zamula's (0.43) draft +1 EV PPG are close to the same as well, and the WHL (6.57) is a similar level of scoring to the Q (6.66) in Morin's +1.

I really see Friedman, Zamula, Morin and Högberg as having the same kind of upside in regards to NHL impact, even though all different types of player, and Zamula is the furthest away.


I am ecstatic they got Zamula for free, he is a legit prospect doing well, and he has an NHL future, but I just dont realistically see him becoming a high-end Dman... though I hope I am 100% wrong.
 
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Stizzle

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Feb 3, 2012
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I have only ever seen people say good things about Morin s hockey iq. Where is his smarts coming into to question.

I don't think he has much confidence in himself making a good decision to move the puck out of his own end. I was openly critical of him often in LV relying on his partners to do it for him. IMO, he actively shyed away from being in that situation.

Now to be fair, I also have said how difficult it is to be a good puck mover in LV. You don't get much support from the forwards and are often put in difficult spots. It often looks like chaos. So I understand Morin's consternation.

His game is simple and he mostly seems to understand his limitations. I don't think he needs to be some high IQ, wizard, defenseman like Kimmo Timonen.

But also, I think Morin is a dying breed of defenseman. Superior puck-movers are at a high premium. Zamula has confidence and skill coming out of his ears right now.
 
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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Junior production is nice, but it should be used as a confirmation of actual talent (size, speed, IQ, etc) and not as valuable in and of itself.
The reason good numbers at 18 matter is they more likely reflect talent rather than physical maturity and experience, so they're a better indication of potential than overage production (see Weal, Martel, etc.).

Zamula is a great find, but nothing suggests he's in the same league with Myers or Sanheim as a prospect.
In fact, we'll see in a couple years if he's better than say Wylie.
It probably depends on the impact that physical maturity has on his game, does he get stronger and faster or bigger and slower?

Morin probably has more upside than Hagg, but the two are more alike than some want to admit, Morin needs to be paired with a puck moving defenseman because he can be pressured into coughing up the puck, and his mediocre lateral agility will require that he "play it safe" or good skaters will leave him in the dust (much like a CB who has stiff hips). But his size, strength and reach are pretty rare.
 

TB87

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May 30, 2018
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NHL readiness and track record have to have weight in rankings. Morin is going to play NHL games this season. He could very well be an established starter by September. Zamula has had ~ 40 good games, before which no one thought he was draft worthy. He'll probably need another 200 before he plays in the NHL.

Everyone weighs things differently. NHL readiness & track record weighs heavily for you...and that’s fine. Doesn’t mean that Dan’s rankings are wrong because he doesn’t...it just means that it’s different.

Corey Pronman is the primary exception to that rule (for me)
 
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landsbergfan

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Jun 20, 2018
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I think they both have #4 upside... and Morin is a lot closer to being able to play in the NHL. He can skate, was good in the AHL (better than Hagg for me), and has a nice enough outlet.

For Zamula I just struggle to see his 5v5 offense translating to become more than a ~25 point NHL Dman if he does not see regular PP time in the pro's, and if he does not then I very much doubt he is going to be more than a #4 Dman. And his D is good but not a big + even in WHL.

He is not Myers or Sanheim who were even in draft+1 very creative in NZ and OZ at 5v5, and he does not have the same offensive drive at 5v5 to get into the play. He uses his skating too little at 5v5 going up ice once he gets the blue-line it is frustrating, and he is static too much in the OZ. If he changes that going forward then I can see more offensive upside.

Morin (0.37) and Zamula's (0.43) draft +1 EV PPG are close to the same as well, and the WHL (6.57) is a similar level of scoring to the Q (6.66) in Morin's +1.

I really see Friedman, Zamula, Morin and Högberg as having the same kind of upside in regards to NHL impact, even though all different types of player, and Zamula is the furthest away.


I am ecstatic they got Zamula for free, he is a legit prospect doing well, and he has an NHL future, but I just dont realistically see him becoming a high-end Dman... though I hope I am 100% wrong.
I completely agree with all of this. I would bet your projections are correct, but for me there is at least still some factor of tools and putting it all together late for Zamula. It could just be a bit of the shiny new toy, but while he projects like you've said, there is something there and he is still young enough to kick it up a notch. I see Hogberg in a similar light when he makes the transition over. Morin I don't ever see a legitimate offense coming out of, though his floor is almost certainly NHL player. Honestly not sure where I'd put Friedman in there yet. He keeps impressing me, but I do expect that to cool off a bit at the NHL level.
 
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Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
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Shiny new toy syndrome is a thing. I'm certainly not opposed to the concept of fresh upside with more potential growth.

I also think it's important to differentiate liking a player above consensus, or liking certain attributes of a player, with understanding the value of those attributes in a player's ultimate projection.

(I'm not talking about a specific player necessarily.)
 

Stizzle

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Feb 3, 2012
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I think they both have #4 upside... and Morin is a lot closer to being able to play in the NHL. He can skate, was good in the AHL (better than Hagg for me), and has a nice enough outlet.

There's just such little upside to Morin at all. He'll be a 24 year old, who just missed almost an entire season, barely has any NHL experience, and a skill-set being phased out of the league. I don't see how he possibly could end up a #4.

He is not Myers or Sanheim who were even in draft+1 very creative in NZ and OZ at 5v5, and he does not have the same offensive drive at 5v5 to get into the play. He uses his skating too little at 5v5 going up ice once he gets the blue-line it is frustrating, and he is static too much in the OZ. If he changes that going forward then I can see more offensive upside.

Morin (0.37) and Zamula's (0.43) draft +1 EV PPG are close to the same as well, and the WHL (6.57) is a similar level of scoring to the Q (6.66) in Morin's +1.

That's a lot of really minute and specific criticism's for a rapidly evolving, young-bodied, 18 year old whose game barely resembles what it was even a few months ago. Some of which, IMO are exaggerated. His play, from the blue line in, is far from static and frustrating.

As for the numbers, Zamula has played 42 games this year. The initial 8 games he literally did not score a single point. This is an evolving player.

Morin has not evolved. It's nice he had those numbers 5 years ago, but Zamula is trending to vastly outperform those numbers in the 2nd half of the year.

Zamula has the upside Morin lacks. He is a 6'4, 165 lb boy. The skill gap and potential gap is leaps and bounds different. The value of each of these prospects is just not close.
 

lancer247

Registered User
Jan 16, 2007
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If every prospect the Flyers have achieves half of the success people predict they would have the deepest pool in history.
As good a prospect as guys like Sanheim are they haven’t even achieved the level of success people are expecting from Friedman, Z and others to reach yet.
It’s nice to see a prospect that comes out of nowhere progress but it is unlikely his trajectory continues at this level it is right now.
People are comparing Morin who’s progress has leveled off because of increased competition, getting closer to his potential, etc to a guy or guys that are just ramping up.
Ie; shiny new toy syndrome.
 

orangey

perpetual mediocrity
Aug 9, 2008
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Morin is basically assured of an NHL job when he gets back due to his waiver eligible status.

Zamula is a nice prospect and all but he’s in the who knows category whereas the other is in the NHL in a couple weeks. Hope Z does well and all but I guess we’ll find out in 3-4 years or whatever. I’m kind of a burnt out being all super excited about those guys. It’s time for the NHL team to do something and be worthy of attention.

Morin can be a prominent part of that and to me that is much more exciting than yet another prospect that is years away.
 

SolidSnakeUS

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Morin is basically assured of an NHL job when he gets back due to his waiver eligible status.

Zamula is a nice prospect and all but he’s in the who knows category whereas the other is in the NHL in a couple weeks. Hope Z does well and all but I guess we’ll find out in 3-4 years or whatever. I’m kind of a burnt out being all super excited about those guys. It’s time for the NHL team to do something and be worthy of attention.

Morin can be a prominent part of that and to me that is much more exciting than yet another prospect that is years away.

Knowing this system, Morin will be sat so they can play Folin or Farmer every night. Because this f***ing team...
 

Stizzle

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Feb 3, 2012
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Morin is basically assured of an NHL job when he gets back due to his waiver eligible status.

Zamula is a nice prospect and all but he’s in the who knows category whereas the other is in the NHL in a couple weeks. Hope Z does well and all but I guess we’ll find out in 3-4 years or whatever. I’m kind of a burnt out being all super excited about those guys. It’s time for the NHL team to do something and be worthy of attention.

Morin can be a prominent part of that and to me that is much more exciting than yet another prospect that is years away.

If every prospect the Flyers have achieves half of the success people predict they would have the deepest pool in history.
As good a prospect as guys like Sanheim are they haven’t even achieved the level of success people are expecting from Friedman, Z and others to reach yet.

It’s nice to see a prospect that comes out of nowhere progress but it is unlikely his trajectory continues at this level it is right now.

People are comparing Morin who’s progress has leveled off because of increased competition, getting closer to his potential, etc to a guy or guys that are just ramping up.
Ie; shiny new toy syndrome.

tenor.gif
 

wasup

Registered User
Mar 21, 2018
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Morin is going to need limited usage his mobility is going to be limited off the start , the knee brace will not help in that department either . i personally don't care how he looks this year at all , i will reserve judgement till next year . That knee thing is a shitty injury that will linger for a while . I know hockey players who have gotten that operation and 1.5 - 1.75 years to completely get over it to the point it is out of your head . Reason it takes so long is you have no blood flow to your tendons or ligaments
 
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JojoTheWhale

CORN BOY
May 22, 2008
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As long as it's not supposed to be a measure of trade value, I really don't see a problem with ranking almost anyone from that group 4th, except a more developed guy like Morin who is clearly lacking in dynamism. Feel free to substitute any other word for dynamism if you think it changes the point, except upside -- that's lost all meaning.

There are 3 prospects that are a cut above and then it comes down to personal preference.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
52,628
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I liked Morin a lot as a 20u guy, but he’s essentially missed two consecutive seasons in his early 20s. That is tough to overcome anywhere, let alone a guy trying to make the transition to the NHL. He should have been in the NHL long enough ago that we shouldn’t be having this conversation but that’s for another thread. Slim chance he plays ahead of Sanheim/ Ghost and he can’t play RD, so becoming a top 4 guy will be extremely difficult with the Flyers.

Zamula is the better “prospect”, if for no other reason than there is a 5 year age gap between the two.

I have no idea how you rank Morin. He’s not really a prospect in the traditional sense. My basic rule of thumb for prospect rankings is who would I value more in a trade? At this point it has to be Zamula.
 

Rebels57

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The Flyers have had a brutal PK and have been soft around their net for years. They also are not the most intimidating group. Morin will help in all of those areas and I think he can be a really good dman in his own zone still. He is quick and nimble for a big man. I value him still. Not sure if I value him for than Zamula, but I still think there is a role for him with the Flyers.
 

baudib1

Registered User
Apr 12, 2016
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Mm, IDK. If I had to bet on who's more likely to play 300 NHL games right now, I'd bet on Morin. Maybe Zamula is more likely to play 600 games, so there's your upside. There's a long long ways to go from 34 great games as a scoring defenseman in D+1 year to NHL No. 3 defenseman. 6-4, 165 pounds isn't anything at all resembling a real NHL playing weight, I'd guess he has to put on another 30 pounds before anyone takes him seriously as a pro player.

Anthony Deangelo scored 25 goals and 64 assists in his D+1 year and is on his third team, and is only now settling in as a No. 4 on a pretty bad team.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
52,628
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Deangelo is on his third team for more reasons than just talent. Kid’s a head case.

More often than not, points are a good indicator of success at the next level. Now you can poke holes in Zamula’s numbers so far if you want to, but bottom line, he is producing and that cannot simply be brushed off. It is ok to be skeptical.

What will he be? If have no idea. My projection has jumped several places in the last month alone. All I know is that he is good and he has skills that are projectable to the next level (as well as a body). He’s not without flaws, but he’s a lot better player now than he was just 3 months ago and definitely a much better player than he was a year ago. Trending.
 

JojoTheWhale

CORN BOY
May 22, 2008
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If I had to bet on who's more likely to play 300 NHL games right now, I'd bet on Morin.

I would strongly object to that having value by definition, especially when we can narrow the scope down to depth players, as we would be doing in Morin's case.

The Games Played standard makes some sense in a sport like baseball where teams are by and large more informed of where value is generated, as well as having more ample roster space and substitution patterns for players who fit a narrow role.
 

BernieParent

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I think they both have #4 upside... and Morin is a lot closer to being able to play in the NHL. He can skate, was good in the AHL (better than Hagg for me), and has a nice enough outlet.

For Zamula I just struggle to see his 5v5 offense translating to become more than a ~25 point NHL Dman if he does not see regular PP time in the pro's, and if he does not then I very much doubt he is going to be more than a #4 Dman. And his D is good but not a big + even in WHL.

He is not Myers or Sanheim who were even in draft+1 very creative in NZ and OZ at 5v5, and he does not have the same offensive drive at 5v5 to get into the play. He uses his skating too little at 5v5 going up ice once he gets the blue-line it is frustrating, and he is static too much in the OZ. If he changes that going forward then I can see more offensive upside.

Morin (0.37) and Zamula's (0.43) draft +1 EV PPG are close to the same as well, and the WHL (6.57) is a similar level of scoring to the Q (6.66) in Morin's +1.

I really see Friedman, Zamula, Morin and Högberg as having the same kind of upside in regards to NHL impact, even though all different types of player, and Zamula is the furthest away.


I am ecstatic they got Zamula for free, he is a legit prospect doing well, and he has an NHL future, but I just dont realistically see him becoming a high-end Dman... though I hope I am 100% wrong.

Come on, deadhead, be positive for once on a Flyers' prospect ...

Checks poster

Zamula is dead to me.
 

macleish1974

Crash.....Heart of a Lion
Aug 2, 2005
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Was there ever a time in the last 40+ games, you are saying to yourself, "boy, if Morin was here that would have never happened"????.........yes......whenever Tom Wilson was on the ice. If there was ever a team that needed a little swagger, this is your man. As a few people have pointed out, this kind of player is no longer needed. At 700K a year for the next 3 years we shall find out, shan't we?

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