Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Jrs., Int'l, etc.

[JojoTheWhale]

So trying and failing is ok for GM? At what point is it not ok? Next year? The year after? Does Hextall have an infinite amount of time to put a winner on the ice as long as he looks like he is trying?

When it stops making sense. If we're going to hold to process > results when it matches our thoughts (and we should), we need to hold ourselves to the same standard. I don't care if they won another playoff round. That's not progress unless it came on the backs of Hextall drafted and/or developed players. This is the Sixers Process argument with better incumbents.

I'm overwhelmingly disappointed in their pro player evaluations, pro development, deployment at the NHL level, etc. Sanheim should have played 1,000 Minutes last year assuming health. No argument at all there. My issue comes in with this acceptance of mediocrity stuff. They believe this is the road to something better and this org above any else in the city deserves that benefit of the doubt. They've always been about trying to win Cups.

 

[x DeCruze]

He's aready good enough ? Take your rose colored glasses off please . I am not saying bust at all and did not write that either , but i did say he has not looked confident with the puck or decision making so far this year , too many mistakes . Spending time in the AHL maturing ain't going to kill him either just like having him on the big club ain't going to fix the the Flyers .

Spending more time in the AHL isn't going to make him ready to be in the top 4. Playing in the NHL, getting some in game experience, getting his confidence up and being given the coach's trust to be used in all situations will make him a top 4 defensemen. And yes like I said above, he's already good enough to be in the NHL. So your comment about taking off the glasses disproves nothing.

 

[Psuhockey]

They believe this is the road to something better and this org above any else in the city deserves that benefit of the doubt. They've always been about trying to win Cups.

This is where we disagree. I gave Hextall the benefit of the doubt when he first took over because of the salary cap issues but that time is over. MacDonald, Simmonds, and Giroux are the only contracts that Hextall didn’t structure on the team. This is his team and it is performing the exact same level as when he took over. So where is the progress? The only thing anyone hangs their hat on is prospects but when do they actually make the team better than the mediocrity we have witnessed the last 5 years? Give me a date.

 

[deadhead]

Spending more time in the AHL isn't going to make him ready to be in the top 4. Playing in the NHL, getting some in game experience, getting his confidence up and being given the coach's trust to be used in all situations will make him a top 4 defensemen. And yes like I said above, he's already good enough to be in the NHL. So your comment about taking off the glasses disproves nothing.

Actually it will, because he gets to play a lot of minutes, in all areas, and learn from mistakes.
Hextall has said repeatedly the NHL is NOT a developmental league, you come up when you're ready to play.
Sanheim wasn't ready last year and was sent down, when he returned, he was a better player.

 

[Ruck Over]

When it stops making sense. If we're going to hold to process > results when it matches our thoughts (and we should), we need to hold ourselves to the same standard. I don't care if they won another playoff round. That's not progress unless it came on the backs of Hextall drafted and/or developed players. This is the Sixers Process argument with better incumbents.

I agree with @Psuhockey in this regard. I'm a believer in the process > results, but as has been pointed out, the Flyers started off in a much better position than the Sixers. The fact the Flyers didn't tank, at all, or even try to, is evidence they began the Process with much more talent on the team. Talent expressed by confidence from management they should be a playoff team. That couldn't be said from the Sixers brass, for implicit (they were nowhere near good enough) & explicit (it would change fan reaction making the expectations much higher) reasons.

If there are only 3 legacy contracts left on the team, Giroux (Good), Simmonds (Bad)*, and AMac (Ugly), he's responsible for the 20 other contracts, or 86.9% of the team.

Ultimately, there doesn't seem to be a process here to evaluate. There are no TJ McConnells, RoCos, etc. At best there is a ?/Fultz in Patrick, an Embiid-lite in Ghost and a Simmons-lite in Provorov. Argument could be made that Ghost is the RoCo, but then the Flyers are missing an Embiid equivalent. What Process has taken place that can be fairly evaluated akin to the Sixers? There are not results to show as of yet, even though management (GMRH) has conditioned the fans to expect such.



*-Simmonds only gets "Bad" to fit a theme. It could be exaggerated the contract is Bad because it forces an unpleasant Sophie's Choice of what to do. Pay him, trade him, let him go for nothing?

 

[Curufinwe]

I think the blocking argument is dumb at this point because I have no faith as to when and how much this organization will play this guys. Sanheim is getting the least amount of time of the 6 regular defensemen. I thought the whole point of a slow development at the AHL level was so these guys can hit the ground running yet they are still being spoon fed. And what makes you think Myers is going to replace one of Gudas and MacDonald next season or should we except this crap again. Besides they signed JVR which blocks Farabee and Radcliffe.

Myers is 21 and already has a AHL season under his belt. That's well ahead of where Farabee and Ratcliffe will be a year from now. Farabee may not even be under contract till 20-21.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I don’t think Hextall is acceptant to the mediocrity. He’s just stuck in the past (sans the asset/cap management part of the job) & that leads to a lot of the issues that comes with this franchise. The coaching/player evaluations are poor because of that type of archaic thinking.

I’m not one to shine the dude’s shoes but I’m totally in agreement with him when it comes from the cap/asset aspect but pretty much everything else I disagree with. Like I don’t think you have to go out & trade multiple premium cost effective assets for a guy like Trouba to turn around & have to give him a large UFA deal soon assuming he does re-sign. But if Karlsson hits the market this summer I would be pretty disappointed if Hextall didn’t try to get into that.

 

[Curufinwe]

The Flyers still started the season with seven skaters aged under 24 on the roster. That's quite a lot.

 

[deadhead]

Problem is this isn't the NBA, hockey is more like baseball, draft 'em at 18, a few play at 19, most at 22-24.
So after 5 drafts you have a few players in the NHL already:
Sanheim, Provorov, Hagg, Patrick, Lindblom, TK and legacies Ghost & Laughton
One year away or so?
Frost, Rubtsov, Hart, Twarynski, Kase, NAK
Two years away or so?
Farabee, O'Brien, Ratcliffe, Allison, Laczynski, . . .

The first draft was five years ago, but you don't build a team off one draft, it takes 3-4 drafts.
One way to speed it up is what the Rangers did last year, trade off most of your top veterans for prospects and draft picks as soon as you have a bad year.
Holmgren could have done that after 2012-13, bring in a coach suited for a young team, and trade his vets.
Instead by waiting two years and muddling along and getting deeper into cap hell, he put off the day of reckoning and delayed the rebuild.

When Hextall took over in 2013-14 his options were more limited, his young core wasn't so young anymore Giroux (26), Voracek (24), Simmonds (25), Couts (21), B Schenn (22), and only Ghost, Laughton and Morin of value in the pipeline and lots of draft picks traded away. You can't reload around that small of a core. So he traded Kimmo, Coburn, Hartnell, McGinn, L Schenn, Rinaldo, Grossman, Streit for draft picks. Got a 1st, 2 2nds, 5 3rds, 2 4th rd picks.
But he knew it would take a while so he kept shuffling, Schenn for Frost and Farabee, Cousins for a 5th, Marody for a 3rd.

The Schenn trade showed his real deadline, Frost should be up in 2019, Farabee in 2020.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

This is where we disagree. I gave Hextall the benefit of the doubt when he first took over because of the salary cap issues but that time is over. MacDonald, Simmonds, and Giroux are the only contracts that Hextall didn’t structure on the team. This is his team and it is performing the exact same level as when he took over. So where is the progress? The only thing anyone hangs their hat on is prospects but when do they actually make the team better than the mediocrity we have witnessed the last 5 years? Give me a date.

There isn't a set date, but you know that. Tolerance varies from person to person. Yours is up and that's absolutely your right. I'm not out on Hextall, but I am strongly concerned about the way people move through their system and NHL hierarchy.

What I absolutely, positively do not care about is last year's Points Percentage. I care if the players that matter (I'm @deadhead now! We've got this, deady.) are guided in the right direction.

I agree with @Psuhockey in this regard. I'm a believer in the process > results, but as has been pointed out, the Flyers started off in a much better position than the Sixers. The fact the Flyers didn't tank, at all, or even try to, is evidence they began the Process with much more talent on the team. Talent expressed by confidence from management they should be a playoff team. That couldn't be said from the Sixers brass, for implicit (they were nowhere near good enough) & explicit (it would change fan reaction making the expectations much higher) reasons.

If there are only 3 legacy contracts left on the team, Giroux (Good), Simmonds (Bad)*, and AMac (Ugly), he's responsible for the 20 other contracts, or 86.9% of the team.

Ultimately, there doesn't seem to be a process here to evaluate. There are no TJ McConnells, RoCos, etc. At best there is a ?/Fultz in Patrick, an Embiid-lite in Ghost and a Simmons-lite in Provorov. Argument could be made that Ghost is the RoCo, but then the Flyers are missing an Embiid equivalent. What Process has taken place that can be fairly evaluated akin to the Sixers? There are not results to show as of yet, even though management (GMRH) has conditioned the fans to expect such.

*-Simmonds only gets "Bad" to fit a theme. It could be exaggerated the contract is Bad because it forces an unpleasant Sophie's Choice of what to do. Pay him, trade him, let him go for nothing?

To expect an Embiid or Simmonds is probably not realistic, but this also isn't the NBA where you HAVE to have one (or three).

To be clear, I believe I was pretty early on the, "I'm worried about Hextall" track. I know I was on that angle by the day of the Filppula trade, so this is not me being a blind apologist. I also turned a little more positive the day of the Schenn trade for the sake of clarity.

There's no way to convince each other because this isn't a factual discussion, but I see the potential in the young players still coming up through the ranks and project a bright future based on that. It's also based around a willingness to roll 4 quality lines and crash wave after wave of effective players into teams. If their attitude toward development and deployment doesn't change, it will be squandered. That concerns me most of all. It's one thing to miss on your scouting, but another to be both good and lucky enough to hit time and time again but fail on an organizational level seems the cruelest outcome.

What I will never agree to is the idea that results are limited in scope to NHL wins and losses. That's not good process.

 

[Ruck Over]

To expect an Embiid or Simmonds is probably not realistic, but this also isn't the NBA where you HAVE to have one (or three).

To be clear, I believe I was pretty early on the, "I'm worried about Hextall" track. I know I was on that angle by the day of the Filppula trade, so this is not me being a blind apologist. I also turned a little more positive the day of the Schenn trade for the sake of clarity.

There's no way to convince each other because this isn't a factual discussion, but I see the potential in the young players still coming up through the ranks and project a bright future based on that. It's also based around a willingness to roll 4 quality lines and crash wave after wave of effective players into teams. If their attitude toward development and deployment doesn't change, it will be squandered. That concerns me most of all. It's one thing to miss on your scouting, but another to be both good and lucky enough to hit time and time again but fail on an organizational level seems the cruelest outcome.

What I will never agree to is the idea that results are limited in scope to NHL wins and losses. That's not good process.

In actuality, I agree that Simmons, Embiid, levels are a bit far-fetched. But Hextall still hasn't acquired the best player on the team yet 5 years in. I want that to be Provy, but it's still clearly Giroux, and Ghost counts as a Homer pick.

We're not talking factual, so there's no real determining metric to prove a point. Again, I make the claim though that the Flyers have no process. Whether that's a lack of conception (doubtful), or a lack of implementation (probable). Where they were 5 years ago is awfully similar to where they are now. Just that now, they have the benefit of unused cap-space and a plethora of young players that either do not have space on the Flyers, or when called up to the Flyers play for a coach that limits their exposure (Provy excepted). Hextall is ultimately the first identifiable person responsible for the condition of the team. If either portion of concept or implementation is faulty he can change the scenario. That he hasn't leads to wonder if this is what he wants, which fans have decried as poor. So, while I'm also Hextall ambivalent, the cards are stacking up against him.

Hextall trades have been moving furniture for the most part. The only long-term benefit from some of those trades are lottery-ticket prospects, and bonafide prospects (Frost & Farabee). So while shocked, I did like the Schenn trade because of the promise it represented, not the actuality it left behind.

So wins & losses are not the best evaluator, which does seem farcical on its face as a premise, the growth of young players, ability for young players to make the roster seems stretched, and by the longest of long-shots, the 4th line may be credible in 4 waves of good lines. There's a lot more to be desired, on that we probably agree.

/rambling blithering blovating

 

[deadhead]

Myers is 21 and already has a AHL season under his belt. That's well ahead of where Farabee and Ratcliffe will be a year from now. Farabee may not even be under contract till 20-21.

I expect Ratcliffe to spend a year in the AHL while he fills out and smooths out his game.
Unless Farabee struggles to gain weight, I expect two college years then straight to the NHL.
Guy has off the chart Hockey IQ, he won't need training wheels.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

In actuality, I agree that Simmons, Embiid, levels are a bit far-fetched. But Hextall still hasn't acquired the best player on the team yet 5 years in. I want that to be Provy, but it's still clearly Giroux, and Ghost counts as a Homer pick.

We're not talking factual, so there's no real determining metric to prove a point. Again, I make the claim though that the Flyers have no process. Whether that's a lack of conception (doubtful), or a lack of implementation (probable). Where they were 5 years ago is awfully similar to where they are now. Just that now, they have the benefit of unused cap-space and a plethora of young players that either do not have space on the Flyers, or when called up to the Flyers play for a coach that limits their exposure (Provy excepted). Hextall is ultimately the first identifiable person responsible for the condition of the team. If either portion of concept or implementation is faulty he can change the scenario. That he hasn't leads to wonder if this is what he wants, which fans have decried as poor. So, while I'm also Hextall ambivalent, the cards are stacking up against him.

Hextall trades have been moving furniture for the most part. The only long-term benefit from some of those trades are lottery-ticket prospects, and bonafide prospects (Frost & Farabee). So while shocked, I did like the Schenn trade because of the promise it represented, not the actuality it left behind.

So wins & losses are not the best evaluator, which does seem farcical on its face as a premise, the growth of young players, ability for young players to make the roster seems stretched, and by the longest of long-shots, the 4th line may be credible in 4 waves of good lines. There's a lot more to be desired, on that we probably agree.

/rambling blithering blovating

Yeah, I don't think we're that far off at all. No one is being completely unrealistic. I'm just more ok with waiting as long as there's a clear plan in place, although the current timetable needs some serious tweaking immediately.

I will say this. Part of my lack of complete negativity is that they allowed Filppula to walk. I was absolutely convinced he was coming back on a one year deal, so I feel I have to be a little flexible.

 

[Ruck Over]

...there's a clear plan in place...

And this is what the gnashing of teeth is over.

Spoiler

I SAID GOOD DAY SIR!

 

[wasup]

Spending more time in the AHL isn't going to make him ready to be in the top 4. Playing in the NHL, getting some in game experience, getting his confidence up and being given the coach's trust to be used in all situations will make him a top 4 defensemen. And yes like I said above, he's already good enough to be in the NHL. So your comment about taking off the glasses disproves nothing.

Wow ! So you are saying the way to develop a player is to over challange him have him make mistakes and that will build his confidence and make him a better player ? I am a Myers fan i have him at #3 in my prospects ratings and wanted him to show the last couple of months that he was ready to make that jump . This being said he has not made the jump i was hoping for so sending him down to get more mins of playing time and work on his craft at a lesser level is exactly what should and has happen. Coming to the big club and making mistakes will get you stapled to the press box for a young player and that is not just a Flyers thing . Mistakes made at the lower level comes with a lot less pressure and less pressure help's with development . I'm after Phil to become the best player he can be and yes i agree for the betterment of his development LV is where he should be and i bet 75 percent of this board would agree, obviously you don't .

 

[deadhead]

If their attitude toward development and deployment doesn't change, it will be squandered. That concerns me most of all. It's one thing to miss on your scouting, but another to be both good and lucky enough to hit time and time again but fail on an organizational level seems the cruelest outcome.

I disagree for this reason, what Hextall is doing is what top franchises do, marinate all but their sure fire NHL players.
The difference is when a deep team does so, it's not noticeable because they're usually fielding 18 competent players, winning a lot of games, so fans aren't pinning their hopes on a savior prospect(s).

Flyers haven't been deep, and Hextall pretty much had to start from scratch, so the "slow cooking" is frustrating to fans tired of watching scrubs and washed up veterans. But the only way to get around playing playing these guys is to build tremendous organizational depth (because injuries are inevitable).

Think about LHV this year and the next two years, each season they'll add at least a half dozen legitimate NHL prospects who are probably no more than a year away, and if they progress faster than expected, prime candidates for mid-season call-ups. The guys who are slower to progress will spend a second season and add to the depth as new players arrive. By next year I doubt there will be any "scrubs" on the roster.

2018-19 LHV: Rubtsov, Twarynzski, Kase, NAK, Myers, Friedman, Hart - all should end up in the NHL, plus Frost
2019-20 LHV: Strome, Sushko, Kalynuk, Allison, Laczynski in college, plus Lycksell, Hogberg, Bernhardt, Sandstrom plus Farabee
2020-21 LHV: Zamula, Cates, O"Brien, St. Ivany, Wylie, Ginning

Now look at LHV last year: Lindblom, Myers, Friedman, NAK, Vorobyev. Guys like Knight, Martel, MV, Bardreau were our depth.
Two years ago: Weal, Laughton, Sanheim, Morin, NAK, Hagg
Three years ago: Cousins, Morin, Hagg, Ghost

Now it won't work out this way exactly, but you can see how deep LHV will be when the Flyers carry 14 solid forwards and 7 defensemen, there will still be plenty of talent behind them, and no one will be rushed to the NHL. If a guy doesn't pan out, next man up.
Most teams are happy to get one player out of a draft, we should get at least 2 out of every Hextall draft, and 3-4 out of some drafts.

 

[Curufinwe]

Wow ! So you are saying the way to develop a player is to over challange him have him make mistakes and that will build his confidence and make him a better player ? I am a Myers fan i have him at #3 in my prospects ratings and wanted him to show the last couple of months that he was ready to make that jump . This being said he has not made the jump i was hoping for so sending him down to get more mins of playing time and work on his craft at a lesser level is exactly what should and has happen. Coming to the big club and making mistakes will get you stapled to the press box for a young player and that is not just a Flyers thing . Mistakes made at the lower level comes with a lot less pressure and less pressure help's with development . I'm after Phil to become the best player he can be and yes i agree for the betterment of his development LV is where he should be and i bet 75 percent of this board would agree, obviously you don't .

Yes, Myers is behind where Sanheim was a year ago in terms of being sound defensively and making smart decisions with the puck. Even though he weighs more.

 

[Young Sandwich]

Wrong thread...

 

[Flyerfan13]

I had a phone call today from a phantoms ticket salesman calling to follow up to see if I was interested in buying any more tickets to phantoms games after going to see the flyers preseason game in Allentown. He gave me a direct number for tickets and said he could waive the box office fees. Anyone interested in getting his contact info pm me.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I think the issue right now is there seems to be contradiction within the Flyers management philosophies. Their process of drafting and building, and what they are looking for in prospects and young players is really good, IMO. That "building" aspect isn't really jiving with the approach they are taking in development and the on-ice professional philosophies. Both coaching staffs at the pro level have an outdated and flawed approach

 

[hatcher]

Carter Hart 4.81 GAA jesus one league up sure made a difference. 3 to 5 yrs away.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Carter Hart 4.81 GAA jesus one league up sure made a difference. 3 to 5 yrs away.

In two games... This is a terrible troll hatch.

 

[hatcher]

In two games... This is a terrible troll hatch.

I was f***ing around but that doesnt look good and some thought he was ready HAHAHAHA. I wouldn't put him anywhere near the flyers as he can barely hang in there in the A

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I was ****ing around but that doesnt look good and some thought he was ready HAHAHAHA. I wouldn't put him anywhere near the flyers as he can barely hang in there in the A

In two games... This is a terrible troll hatch.

 

[hatcher]

In two games... This is a terrible troll hatch.

It sucks when all the highly touted prospects come crashing down. It happens on all teams.