Phaneuf or Barker

[TKLOOCH22]

I think, and this hurts to say, I'd go with Barker, severely underrated IMO.

Well, to who? If you mean other drafted prospects then maybe. But a guy who is projected to go in the top 5 of his draft class is not too underrated to me, IMO.

 

[Taxman]

Oh ok, so Cam is only 2nd among defenseman in the WHL in scoring. Excuse me.

I was also mistaken about Cam being 18 already..he doesn't turn 18 until April. He is a full year younger than Phaneuf almost exactly.

So really, shouldn't we be comparing Phaneuf's 2003 to Cam's 2004? Afterall, those are the seasons when they were the same age.

Last year, Phaneuf played on a first place Red Deer team, a team that had a staggering 271 to 160 Goals For/Against ratio. They were 3rd among all teams in goals that season.

How many points did Phaneuf score that year? In 71 games, a whopping 30 points.

This year, Cam Barker is playing for a good Medicine Hat team although not as good as last year's Red Deer team. They are on pace to score 280 points, slightly more than the Red Deer team of that 2003 (271 goals).

How many points is Barker on pace to score this year, on a team only slightly more offensively talented than the Red Deer team of last season? In 71 games (I will prorate it to the # of games Phaneuf played last season), he is on pace for 68 points.

In fact, last year, Barker, at 17, in only 64 games played on a less talented Medicine Hat team, outscored the 18 year old Phaneuf, who played 71 games, on a more talented Red Deer team.

In 2003 Barker had 47 points in 64 games to Phaneuf's 30 in 71.

I think it is safe to say that Barker is definitely the more talented offensive defenseman. Now, Phaneuf at this point is probably the better defensive player but Barker is no slouch in that end either. Give him another year to grow. Barker will end up slightly taller and bigger than Phaneuf IMO.

I just don't think Phaneuf can match Barker's potential as a 2 way defenseman. Barker's scoring acumen is very impressive.

 

[kruezer]

Well, to who? If you mean other drafted prospects then maybe. But a guy who is projected to go in the top 5 of his draft class is not too underrated to me, IMO.

Not so much to his draft class I would have to say, any idea of him dropping out of the top 5 is insane to me. I read that Predergrast article (PP director for the Oilers) were he claimed that he'd take the 'big three' over Barker, its just IMO, but that is insane, I definetaly, without thinking take Barker over Coburn, no doubt, Suter I don't know as much about, but all I hear about him is good I can't really comment. I think in the end I'd take Barker over Phaneuf (I have to agree, comparing him to Stevens is unfair, I mean alot of people now consider Stevens one of the top 6 D EVER, it was espn people so take it with a grain of salt, but thats a bit much to expect from Phaneuf, now anyway) I'd take Pitkanen from what I've seen of him in the NHL so far I think. J-Bo, well I'll say it again, I think Barker is better, I am not a massive J-Bo fan, I think he'll be a solid defender, definetaly, but I think Barker will be better, maybe like Blake vs. Hart Trophy Version Pronger.

 

[Big Cat Davo]

Cam Barker

I have Seen Cam Barker play a lot of games this season and hands down I would go with Dion Phaneuf every time. Unless Cam Barker makes a serious commitment to improving his play in his own end he is half a player . . . if he can improcve his defence I see perhaps a Denis Gauthier out of Barker . . . now barker has not really shown me the kind of mean streak that Gauthier has, but it may happen . . . Gauthier put up big 'O' numbers in the Q, but to stick int he Show he need to focus on 'D'. It will be the same for Cam Barker, his 'D' is much too weak to justify what he brigns to the table ofensively. I see Phaneuf being a much more complete defender, he might no bring the same kind of offence that Barker does, but is has a more complete game.

Dave

 

[Jacob]

Oh ok, so Cam is only 2nd among defenseman in the WHL in scoring. Excuse me.

I was also mistaken about Cam being 18 already..he doesn't turn 18 until April. He is a full year younger than Phaneuf almost exactly.

So really, shouldn't we be comparing Phaneuf's 2003 to Cam's 2004? Afterall, those are the seasons when they were the same age.

Last year, Phaneuf played on a first place Red Deer team, a team that had a staggering 271 to 160 Goals For/Against ratio. They were 3rd among all teams in goals that season.

How many points did Phaneuf score that year? In 71 games, a whopping 30 points.

This year, Cam Barker is playing for a good Medicine Hat team although not as good as last year's Red Deer team. They are on pace to score 280 points, slightly more than the Red Deer team of that 2003 (271 goals).

How many points is Barker on pace to score this year, on a team only slightly more offensively talented than the Red Deer team of last season? In 71 games (I will prorate it to the # of games Phaneuf played last season), he is on pace for 68 points.

In fact, last year, Barker, at 17, in only 64 games played on a less talented Medicine Hat team, outscored the 18 year old Phaneuf, who played 71 games, on a more talented Red Deer team.

In 2003 Barker had 47 points in 64 games to Phaneuf's 30 in 71.

I think it is safe to say that Barker is definitely the more talented offensive defenseman. Now, Phaneuf at this point is probably the better defensive player but Barker is no slouch in that end either. Give him another year to grow. Barker will end up slightly taller and bigger than Phaneuf IMO.

I just don't think Phaneuf can match Barker's potential as a 2 way defenseman. Barker's scoring acumen is very impressive.

How does their physical play match up? Phaneuf would probably get the edge, but does Barker hold his own?

 

[Big Cat Davo]

How does their physical play match up? Phaneuf would probably get the edge, but does Barker hold his own?

In the 25-30 games I have watched this season he has yet to throw a big hit, or be much involved in the physical play at all . . . I really don't see how anyone can compare these two defenceman.

Dave

 

[Gumby]

In the 25-30 games I have watched this season he has yet to throw a big hit, or be much involved in the physical play at all . . . I really don't see how anyone can compare these two defenceman.

Dave

If as you say, Barker is that bad why on earth is this kid likely to go in the top 5 in the draft? Surely you must admit that at least most GM's/scouts know more about evaluating talent than youy do but you give the impression that this kid blows......certainly not even worth a 1st round pick...what gives?

Beleive me I want as accurate an evaluation of this kid as possible as I'm a Caps fan and those dumbasses keep getting points, thus likely (unless the stars align and they win the lottery) knocking themselves outta the Ovechkin, Malkin derby and will likely take this kid, and the opinion of someone who's actually seen him play more than once or twice at some prospect game carries more weight. Now do you just have something against this kid for some reason or is he the complete waste that you paint him to be?

Anyone else who's seen this kid please give your opinion.

 

[Pachoo]

McKeen's on Barker:

Team: Medicine Hat (WHL)
Hometown: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Age: 17
Height: 6-foot-3
Weight: 210 pounds
Shoots: left

Bio Notes: Photo courtesy Medicine Hat (WHL). Eligible for the 2004 NHL Entry Draft. Played for Team Canada at the 2003 U-18 World Cup. Named the captain of Team Manitoba at the Canada Winter Games (2003). Medicine Hat Tigers’ first round pick (4th overall) in the WHL Bantam Draft (2001).


Commentary from McKeen's Hockey Prospects:
Scouting: Very few defensemen have a better grasp of their position offensively and defensively at such a tender age than Cam Barker does. A smooth skater with an impressive stride and good balance, he displays surprising agility and speed for his size. Has a great low shot from the point, but needs to use it more as he often elects to pass the puck to a teammate even if he is in a great shooting lane. Good vision and puck handling skills allow him to create a lot of offense when he is quarterbacking a power play. He also has an innate hockey sense to know when to pinch in from the point and or stay back. Barker can beat a forecheck either by making a crisp pass up to an open forward or by personally carrying the puck out of the defensive zone. Displays tremendous confidence on the ice at all times and never panics. A great leader that doesn’t let his team get down after a goal against. As good as he is offensively he might be even better in his own end due to being positionally sound, while at the same time very aggressive. Barker clears the front of net, plays aggressive along the boards and is capable at throwing some bone jarring hits.

10/13/2003 - Terrific hand-eye coordination .. uses his excellent vision to find the open forward .. excellent skater and strong on his skates .. forced in to taking a penalty for obstruction holding when he was being beaten wide by a hard rushing forward .. doesn’t need much follow through to let go a heavy slapshot .. isn’t immune to getting chippy in scrums or in the crease by giving a guy a poke in the face .. saw a ton of ice time and was used in every situation and on both special teams .. has to be more diligent about his defensive coverage as he did let the odd player sneak in behind him and in to open ice.

09/05/2003 - (U-18 World Cup August) - looked very good, other than the last game. Reads the play very well, great passer, solid toughness, but his shots could be more accurate.

08/19/2003 - (u18) Sturdy Medicine Hat Tigers defenseman Cam Barker had a great start into the tournament, showing a terrific vision and excellent passing skills. Barker unfortunately wasn't the same factor in the key games. But still Barker displayed smooth skating for a player of his size and great smarts. He has a low panic point and doesn't make mistakes even if pressed by an opponent. Barker doesn't shy away from the rough stuff and throws very good hits. He possesses a hard shot from the point, but it needs some polishing especially in accuracy.

08/15/2003 - Barker had huge shoes to fill when coming to Medicine Hat. With Jay Bouwmeester leaving for the NHL, Barker was expected to step in and instantly become the anchor of what had been a very porous Tigers’ defense. While struggling at times like most freshman do, for Barker it has been mission accomplished. A fluid skater who displays puck poise and has a great outlet pass, Barker has the talent to be the best two-way defenseman in the upcoming NHL Entry Draft. Blessed with a strong 6’3, 212 lbs. physique and the intensity to use it, Barker figures to live up to the billing of a defenseman who can be a top two defenseman at the NHL level who has the ability to play any style you want.

 

[HuskyFlames]

All I know is that if Phaneuf is ready for the NHL next season, in a few years the Flames could easily have one of the best defensive corps in the league.

Regher
Leopold
Phaneuf
Warrener
Ference
Lydman
Gauthier
Commodore
Ramholt - Another great 2nd round prospect

All guys (especially Regher, Commodore, gauthier, Phaneuf, Warrener) are capable of delivering the body big time. The blueline will look scary in the next few years for the Calgary Flames.

 

[Big Cat Davo]

Barker Bias?

Nothing against Barker in particular . . . and if he ends up being the player the scouts think he will be then I will have a lot of crow to eat . . . but I am expecting to toss out a big told you so.

I am well away of what the pro scouts think . . . and I will agree I am not one, and I am rather young, but I like to think I understand what makes a good defenceman, I have played the position all my life.

One scout sees patience, I see a lack of hustle, this kid in never in top gear, always loafing. Another scout sees a great passer, I think his passes need work . . . he is by no means an off the glass and out type d man that is for sure, but if good passing means getting the puck within three feet of it's target nine times out of ten then I guess he is a good passes.

He does bring a lot of O. he is a great power play QB and can lead a rush and take charger on the point in the attacking end, he is an offensive threat, that is undeniable.

But I really think that his O take away from his D. When he rushes the puck and it does not result in a gaol, I don't see him hustle to get back and do his job . . .

I will watch him closer tonight.

Dave

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

The question is less about how good he is now as is it how good will he be in 5-6 years? Maybe that's where you and the amateur scouts are not seeing eye to eye? They are projecting how good he will be in the NHL. How good he is this year in junior is just one variable in that equation.

He will definitely improve but how much is the question. A lot will depend on his character, how he matures, etc. If the flaws in his game right now can easily be worked out with good coaching and some determination on his part then his upside should be quite high. Is he improving any aspects of his game this season? How close is his game this year to Phaneuf's and Coburn's last year?

I haven't seen him so I'm a poor choice to comment on Barker.

 

[icarus]

All guys (especially Regher, Commodore, gauthier, Phaneuf, Warrener) are capable of delivering the body big time. The blueline will look scary in the next few years for the Calgary Flames.

I think it's already pretty scary.

 

[Big Cat Davo]

Friday night vs Moose Jaw

I light of the comments that I was anti Barker I decide to watch him much more objectively Friday night, not so much looking for the weak spots, but looking for the strong spots. Here is what I saw:

He is the key to the Tigers power play, it struggled with him not on ice, he has good vision and is calm with the puck. He is definately one of the major cogs in the Tigers offence. He has great vision on the breakout pass, however he decision making leaves a lot to be desired as he single handedly killed Toger power play by giving the puck away no less than three times, attempting ill advised long break out passes, they were read and picked each time. As for the physical side of his game, he did not back down from anything and was in the odd scrum after the whistle, but I did not see him throw a single check.

Flames watcher . . . you are right, I have no idea how scout come up with the whole potential thing . . . if it were me, I would want to take the most skilled most complete player, and hope he continues to improve in the NHL environment, the whole potential thing is a bit of a mystery thing to me. Kris Russel, the Tigers 16 year old D man, is on many night Cam Barker equal. Unfortunately for Russel he will have to grow quite a bit to have Cam Barker "potential".

Dave

 

[st_roland]

I light of the comments that I was anti Barker I decide to watch him much more objectively Friday night, not so much looking for the weak spots, but looking for the strong spots. Here is what I saw:

He is the key to the Tigers power play, it struggled with him not on ice, he has good vision and is calm with the puck. He is definately one of the major cogs in the Tigers offence. He has great vision on the breakout pass, however he decision making leaves a lot to be desired as he single handedly killed Toger power play by giving the puck away no less than three times, attempting ill advised long break out passes, they were read and picked each time. As for the physical side of his game, he did not back down from anything and was in the odd scrum after the whistle, but I did not see him throw a single check.

Flames watcher . . . you are right, I have no idea how scout come up with the whole potential thing . . . if it were me, I would want to take the most skilled most complete player, and hope he continues to improve in the NHL environment, the whole potential thing is a bit of a mystery thing to me. Kris Russel, the Tigers 16 year old D man, is on many night Cam Barker equal. Unfortunately for Russel he will have to grow quite a bit to have Cam Barker "potential".

Dave

Thats depressing.

 

[Phanuthier*]

To whomever was comparing Phaneuf's stats in 2003 and Barker in 2004, Phaneuf's stock really grew the months leading up to the draft, from mid-late 20's to the top 10, as he took over 20 year old Jeff Woywitka's spot, who was a top WHL D in his own right. That's the only thing I can add, I don't know much about Barker, so I can't compare.

To Vlad, I personally think Phaneuf's puck rushing ability is awsome, but I'm not an old fart like you, so I didn't see Stevens play when he was 22.

 

[West]

I light of the comments that I was anti Barker I decide to watch him much more objectively Friday night, not so much looking for the weak spots, but looking for the strong spots. Here is what I saw:

He is the key to the Tigers power play, it struggled with him not on ice, he has good vision and is calm with the puck. He is definately one of the major cogs in the Tigers offence. He has great vision on the breakout pass, however he decision making leaves a lot to be desired as he single handedly killed Toger power play by giving the puck away no less than three times, attempting ill advised long break out passes, they were read and picked each time. As for the physical side of his game, he did not back down from anything and was in the odd scrum after the whistle, but I did not see him throw a single check.

Flames watcher . . . you are right, I have no idea how scout come up with the whole potential thing . . . if it were me, I would want to take the most skilled most complete player, and hope he continues to improve in the NHL environment, the whole potential thing is a bit of a mystery thing to me. Kris Russel, the Tigers 16 year old D man, is on many night Cam Barker equal. Unfortunately for Russel he will have to grow quite a bit to have Cam Barker "potential".

Dave

I'd say that's a pretty accurate view of his defensive game. The pluses is that he's big and is a pretty good skater for his size. His potential is that if someone lights a fire under him and get's him to work hard and can stop him from making high risk play's you have a number 3 or 4 defenseman. This will likely hurt his offensive game though but still makes him a good pick in the 10-20 range.

p.s. Potential = big, fast, mean, and skilled enough to play in the NHL. Also how will someone forcing him to play solid defense affect his game.

 

[ZombieMatt]

I don't know tons about Barker, but what I have heard I do like a fair bit.

It seems the consensus would take Phaneuf, and I think that does seem to be logical, I'm just wondering if a bit of that is over-hype from the WCJ.

 

[West]

I don't know tons about Barker, but what I have heard I do like a fair bit.

It seems the consensus would take Phaneuf, and I think that does seem to be logical, I'm just wondering if a bit of that is over-hype from the WCJ.

Actually I would say that Barker is being over-hyped. There was an interview with the Edmonton head scout here that he comment basically that Barker is a good bet to fall out of the top 10 and that Mike Green is a better prospect (this second part if a little reading between the lines and I'm a big fan of Mike Green).

Mean while Phaneuf has been doing a great job all year in the WHL and just continued that at the WJC. Although I'd say that he's definitely improved his game from last year.

 

[Doomsday Device]

Actually I would say that Barker is being over-hyped. There was an interview with the Edmonton head scout here that he comment basically that Barker is a good bet to fall out of the top 10 and that Mike Green is a better prospect (this second part if a little reading between the lines and I'm a big fan of Mike Green).

I think you're reading far too much into his comments with regards to Green. He basically gave a "no comment" on the situation and a textbook answer.

 

[West]

I think you're reading far too much into his comments with regards to Green. He basically gave a "no comment" on the situation and a textbook answer.

Probably. I'd take Green over Barker right now though and would be surprized if most teams didn't have it like that. The closest we'll ever get to knowing that for sure is when CSS final rankings come out or waiting ten years to see who has the best career.

 

[Defence first]

Baker, I have not seen that much of him but at the prospects he looked a little bit better. Phaneuf ran around alittle bit at the world juniors.... well maybe i will take both

 

[BlueAndWhite]

.... well maybe i will take both

Greedy little punk.