Petterson or Dahlin?

[tsujimoto74]

I have no problem with people taking Dahlin because they value dmen and feel Dahlin's status of 1oa worthy prospect since 2016 is a longer and more legitimate stretch than Pettersson's record breaking shl season and this rookie season

the Panarin vs McDavid comparison is ridiculous and reveals your homerism.

EP and RD are 1 draft year apart, EP is having the better rookie season. If both hit their ceiling given what they've shown in the past 2 years (pedigree and hype) you can't put them on different tiers. EP this season looks like he's closer to hitting that ceiling while Dahlin less so and that's primarily because a rookie dmen position is harder than a center position

1. I'm not the one who brought McDavid into this, and I didn't even make an actual comparison. The analogy was in the specious reasoning of the argument, not between the players involved.
2. Craig Button, however, called Dahlin "the McDavid of defensemen" numerous times. He a ridiculous Sabres homer too?

 

[clunk]

Both awesome but Dahlins upside is a generational defenceman who changes the way the position is played and viewed.

I actually think Quinn Hughes plays that unique, newer breed of game than Dahlin.

Quinn plays unlike many defensemen before him.

Dahlin is fantastic, absolutely fantastic, but if we're talking about a d-man that can change the way the game is played, it's Quinn if all things go right.

Nobody can play the game quite like him in this league.

 

[FrankGallagher]

okay I'd take Bobby Orr over McDavid

Dahlin doesn't need to reach that level to be better than Pettersson though. Realistically Dahlins likely going to be a top 5 D in the league minimum, Pettersson long term if things break right is a top 10 pushing top 5 forward in the league.

If you understand the mechanics of skating there are some things he does that have never been seen before at the level he's doing them. Look at how much width and speed he can get cutting on his edges or how fluid his hips are which lets him move in ways others can't. On top of that he looks like he could have an all time elite brain and creativity.

 

[Ainec]

1. I'm not the one who brought McDavid into this, and I didn't even make an actual comparison. The analogy was in the specious reasoning of the argument, not between the players involved.
2. Craig Button, however, called Dahlin "the McDavid of defensemen" numerous times. He a ridiculous Sabres homer too?

McDavid is brought up because the season Pettersson is having as a forward is against the likes of him. Whilst the season Dahlin has is vs Doughty Hedman Ekblad Chychrun..

you bringing up Panarin vs McDavid to argue that age matters and likening someone going with Pettersson as choosing Panarin over McDavid for their franchise is a bad analogy

100% homerism analogy, as bad as the birthdate criteria

 

[Ainec]

Dahlin doesn't need to reach that level to be better than Pettersson though. Realistically Dahlins likely going to be a top 5 D in the league minimum, Pettersson long term if things break right is a top 10 pushing top 5 forward in the league.

If you understand the mechanics of skating there are some things he does that have never been seen before at the level he's doing them. Look at how much width and speed he can get cutting on his edges or how fluid his hips are which lets him move in ways others can't. On top of that he looks like he could have an all time elite brain and creativity.

this doesn't make sense

 

[FrankGallagher]

I actually think Quinn Hughes plays that unique, newer breed of game than Dahlin.

Quinn plays unlike many defensemen before him.

Dahlin is fantastic, absolutely fantastic, but if we're talking about a d-man that can change the way the game is played, it's Quinn if all things go right.

Nobody can play the game quite like him in this league.

Did you ever watch Dahlin play in the SHL? What Hughes does now will obviously be toned down a fair bit at the NHL level. I do agree Hughes plays that similar type of style though but I don't think he has near the all around IQ, understanding of off puck movement, or the ability to outthink an opponent the way Dahlin can

 

[Ainec]

Did you ever watch Dahlin play in the SHL? What Hughes does now will obviously be toned down a fair bit at the NHL level. I do agree Hughes plays that similar type of style though but I don't think he has near the all around IQ, understanding of off puck movement, or the ability to outthink an opponent the way Dahlin can

have you seen Erik Karlsson

and please explain the post about how Dahlin will clearly be better as a top 5 dmen vs a top 5 forward (if they hit their ceiling)

 

[FrankGallagher]

this doesn't make sense

What do you think the realistic outcomes for Pettersson and Dahlin are? I think Dahlins likely floor is a top 5/10 defence man in the league, and a ceiling of this generations Bobby Orr(not play style) where he's the Norris shoe in before the puck even drops every year.

For Pettersson I would say his realistic floor is a very good first line forward who can drive a line offensively. In terms of his ceiling I think it is very unrealistic to project him as a consistent top 5 type forward in the league.

So yes long term I think it would be Dahlin by miles that is a better and more impactful player.

 

[FrankGallagher]

have you seen Erik Karlsson

and please explain the post about how Dahlin will clearly be better as a top 5 dmen vs a top 5 forward (if they hit their ceiling)

Floor top 5(ie. likely) vs absolute ceiling top 5 forward(ie. not as likely)

 

[Ainec]

Floor top 5(ie. likely) vs absolute ceiling top 5 forward(ie. not as likely)

makes more sense to say that you think Dahlin is more likely to hit his top ceiling

 

[Ainec]

he's the Norris shoe in before the puck even drops every year.

I am very high on Dahlin but not this level, you'll look good if you're right

 

[FrankGallagher]

makes more sense to say that you think Dahlin is more likely to hit his top ceiling

Ya but even at his floor you are looking at a player of comparable value to what Pettersson at his ceiling would look like. I do think he is more likely to hit his top ceiling as well though. I'm not trying to say Pettersson isn't or won't be great, would be ridiculous to say otherwise. But barring injury or some other major setback I just don't see a real argument for Petersson being the better player long term.

 

[tsujimoto74]

McDavid is brought up because the season Pettersson is having as a forward is against the likes of him. Whilst the season Dahlin has is vs Doughty Hedman Ekblad Chychrun..

you bringing up Panarin vs McDavid to argue that age matters and likening someone going with Pettersson as choosing Panarin over McDavid for their franchise is a bad analogy

100% homerism analogy, as bad as the birthdate criteria

Not even remotely a good faith effort at attempting to understand what I was arguing originally, and completely unresponsive to my last post. Yawn.

 

[FrankGallagher]

I am very high on Dahlin but not this level, you'll look good if you're right

Okay, pick one sentence out of a whole post out of context so it looks like that is all that was said... I think most would agree his ceiling(not most likely) outcome is a player who can challenge Lidstroms Norris record. Also good job dodging saying how you think they project long term

 

[Ainec]

Not even remotely a good faith effort at attempting to understand what I was arguing originally, and completely unresponsive to my last post. Yawn.

yawn.

"Ovechkin won the Calder over Crosby even though Crosby was 18 and Ovechkin was 20. The award goes to the best rookie, not which rookie is the best relative to their age. Panarin (24) also won over McDavid (18) and yes that was primarily due to McDavid's injury. The point still stands that historically the award goes to whichever rookie has the best season not who has the most rare or "best season relative to age."

With regards to the Calder, it shouldn't matter to voters if Dahlin is 18, 19, or 24. It's about which player had the best season regardless of age."

you

"This thread isn't just about who should win the Calder. OP also asked which player you'd rather have, which involves long-term projections. Unless you'd take Panarin over McDavid now because he won the Calder..."


Could've just said you'd take Dahlin because you don't think this season is as significant as their hype or 2. top potential that you are projecting

 

[wetcoast]

What do you think the realistic outcomes for Pettersson and Dahlin are? I think Dahlins likely floor is a top 5/10 defence man in the league, and a ceiling of this generations Bobby Orr(not play style) where he's the Norris shoe in before the puck even drops every year.

For Pettersson I would say his realistic floor is a very good first line forward who can drive a line offensively. In terms of his ceiling I think it is very unrealistic to project him as a consistent top 5 type forward in the league.

So yes long term I think it would be Dahlin by miles that is a better and more impactful player.

As good as Pettersson looks and is right now, I can see Dahlin being better for longer but it's still way too early to tell forsure.

 

[lawrence]

Dhalin has more things to work on as a dman, then Ekblad and Doughty did at the same age. What is this? Dhalin if anything is on the same Tier as Heiskanen.

I refuse to believe some people actually think Dhalin is generational. wow. Is he a once in a 20 year dman? I don't believe this due to some things he need to work on.

You look at Heiskanen, he really doesn't have to work on anything as he is good and have no glaring weaknesses. for him it's just a matter of getting better.

Now lets look at Elias Pettersson, this guy is a force 200 feet ice, the only thing he needs to work on is just adding muscle mass.

Pettersson. For me. Easily.

 

[Ainec]

Okay, pick one sentence out of a whole post out of context so it looks like that is all that was said... I think most would agree his ceiling(not most likely) outcome is a player who can challenge Lidstroms Norris record. Also good job dodging saying how you think they project long term

Pronger challenged Lidstrom. Lidstrom had one of the best career as a dmen because of the way Detroit was built.


if we bring Pronger and Lidstrom and Karlsson into this.. these are the forwards

Jagr, Lemieux, Gretzky, McDavid, Crosby, Ovechkin, Sakic, Yzerman etc

do you see that there's more forward HOFers? Maybe because there's more forwards in the league than dmen. If we project future ceilings I'll say Dahlin is more likely to be a #1 in his entire position than Pettersson, but that's not as significant as actually building the better team

 

[CpatainCanuck]

I dunno, from what I’ve seen Pettersson absolutely has the skill to be a top 5 forward in the league. He still has some work to do Strength and consistency wise.

 

[SensFactor]

Dahlin from what I've seen

 

[The ultimate fan]

Ya but even at his floor you are looking at a player of comparable value to what Pettersson at his ceiling would look like. I do think he is more likely to hit his top ceiling as well though. I'm not trying to say Pettersson isn't or won't be great, would be ridiculous to say otherwise. But barring injury or some other major setback I just don't see a real argument for Petersson being the better player long term.

Well I will tell you what... I have been watching hockey since 1970. I have seen gretzky's entire career and almost all of Bobby Orr's the two player's that get the bulk of the serious consideration for the greatest hockey player of all time.... ok you can through Gordie's name in there too but none of these guys think the game no not even Gretzky imo at the same level as Pettersson. Coach Green said he makes an extraordinary play or a remarkable mental decision every game. Then don't forget Sweden's WJC coach when asked who the MOST SKILLED player was on the team said without any hesitation Elias Pettersson, and that was with Dahlin being on it. Oh, and the coach of his Swedish Elite team said last year of Pettersson as he demolished all the records in the regular season and play offs ( yep all the Forsbergs, Nilsons Naslunds Zetterbergs you get the picture) said, "we don't teach Elias he teaches us"

How's that for an argument?

Personally, I think the scouts underestimated his talent.

 

[Eric Wiebe]

Petterson isn't that great. Boeser is pretty much carrying Petterson out there. Like Boeser's hat trick today, that was all Boeser, nothing to do with Petterson.

 

[The ultimate fan]

Petterson isn't that great. Boeser is pretty much carrying Petterson out there. Like Boeser's hat trick today, that was all Boeser, nothing to do with Petterson.

I laughed out loud when I read your post you would have to be trolling otherwise I just shake my head.

 

[42]

Dahlin isn't even the best rookie defenceman this year. Heiskenen has been better. Now I don't know why some feel that they can project Dahlin to be generational or a top dman in the game when he matures. Way too early to be concluding this. From what I've seen so far this season, I like Pettersson more long term.

 

[teemussalami1]

both