Peter Chiarelli Why Did You Trade Tayor Hall *****fest Bonanza!

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McFlash97

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Oct 10, 2017
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I remember when Boston won the cup. During a press conference, Chiarelli stated " I'm a genius".
I knew he'd pay for saying this someday... and these days have come!
Hasn't fixed the Oilers yet....


Seguin
Hall
Wheeler
Barzal
Kessel
Maroon
Eberle
Rackell



That team is a stanley cup contender with a decent defense core , and probably sets all types of modern day scoring records. You cant beat that forward core. Its frightening. All approaching or near their primes.

ps. Add Draisaitl to that list soon if the Oilers continue at this rate. Chiarelli is a living sieve.
 
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belair

Jay Woodcroft Unemployment Stance
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If they had gotten either one of the 16th 2015 pick or 4th 2016 pick right I would agree, they would be in OK shape.

But if Puljujarvi is not going to be a big time player ... that's a huge hole in your whole line of logic.

They needed to hit paydirt with at least one of those picks (16 + 33 in 2015, or 4 + 32 in 2016) and I think they might have very well come of it really 0/4. They needed to get a mid-tier star player at least out of one of those four picks if they were going to trade Hall and they had oppurtunities to do so.
Like I said, I have no reason to comment on this trade. It was severely detrimental to our current situation considering the actual value of those picks. But mistakes happen and teams move on despite them.

As for Puljujavi, people's expectations are way too high for this player to peak this early in his career. He's a 6'4 winger who can fly. His two way game is what the team prioritized early in his development. On a low-cost second--maybe even third contract, he's going to be a fixture in that middle six moving forward. Maybe they should prioritize his ability to speak English though.
 

KeithIsActuallyBad

You thrust your pelvis, huh!
Apr 12, 2010
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I actually don't disagree with you. The management massively underrated the impact that losing Jordan Eberle was going to have in the short term. I sincerely hope no one on the staff was hoping this team was going to be competitive towards a Cup in the years it was going to and will continue to take while they replaced it organizationally. But there's no reason to not expect them to push for a playoff spot in a division where all three California teams are all aging.

But honestly, what do you do? We couldn't afford to add an established winger in a time where this cap was tied up in other places on the roster--because they cost significant money and term. Even the 'what about Lucic' perspective is kind of soft considering the only reasonably productive UFA to come out of that crop was Eric Staal. At some point your depth guys just need to be NHLers. Tobias Rieder talks about 'making real money' in the pre-season and he's trending towards the KHL in the opening weeks of the season. Last year it was our special teams. Too many zeroes.
Management always feels so short-sighted and the reliance on rookies in important roles is something that's been haunting this organization since Gagner was drafted. I always look at other organizations and most of them ease their rookies into the lineup without expectations but around here it's "We traded Eberle away, score 20 goals please". Ironically Eberle probably was the last player they were truly patient with. He and Nurse are the only first rounders we've drafted in the last nine years that didn't see NHL action right out of the gate.

As for what we do, I don't really know. The cap is f***ed. Nothing short of compliance buyouts is going to get us the space we need. Our cap situation isn't pretty next year with JP due for a raise and zero goalies signed past this season.

Lucic aside the Oilers haven't significantly overpaid anyone (maybe Russell). The real problem is that they continually pay players more than they are worth. Cagguila is not worth 1.5m. Reider is not worth 2m. Etc, etc etc. Part of the reason Chiarelli was turfed from Boston was his inability to handle the cap which forced him to sell assets for cheap. Even the buyouts were unnecessary. Pouliot/Gryba are now 1.6 in dead cap space.

It's a vicious cycle that the Oilers still haven't pulled themselves out of. They cannot sign free agents at reasonable prices and plug holes so they're forced to play rookies in important roles which drowns them and hampers development that they sorely need which means more overpriced UFAs are brought in to patch those holes...

I really thought we were done being losers when Chiarelli was hired but the best the Oilers can hope for at this very moment is first round fodder for Nashville or San Jose.
 
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Frank the Tank

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This is slightly OT, but it's never really been mentioned.

Jordan Eberle can be specifically be pointed out for setting the precedent for why the Edmonton Oilers routinely get blamed for the inflation of second contracts for these types of players--William Nylander being the most recent. Eberle literally had one season in this league where he produced like a legitimate top line forward. Year #2, 34-42-76 and a +4 as a 21 year old on a team that finished second last in the NHL.

In one year where a responsible team would force this player to earn his playing time to develop the weaker aspects of his game as an undersized forward, he was being spoon-fed top line minutes and primary PP assignments. Heralded as one of the three guys who were going to pull the Oilers out of the cellar, the Oilers mindlessly gave this player a massive $6m extension and then proceeded to use it as a benchmark to extend the rest of the hyped future Oiler trio. Beyond that one year, not one of these guys put up a year in the ELC that would've deemed them worthy of those $6m extension, yet each and every one of them never had to earn the opportunities they received to attempt to produce that offense.

Ancient history now, but if you're asking today why Todd McLellan isn't plugging Jesse Puljujarvi next to Connor McDavid and waiting--this is a pretty damn good reason. Why is Leon Draisaitl making so much money? His time next to Connor paired with his immediate comparable being that other Oilers center making $6m for putting up mediocre numbers for six seasons prior.

Big, big reason why these three guys were bad for business when Connor McDavid came along. They were getting paid like our best players, then they started getting outproduced and passed on the depth chart. I loved all these guys as Oilers, but you can't be making that kind of money if you're a guy who can't earn it. And as Oilers none of them did consistently.

Unfortunately for us that big three was mismanaged from day one thanks to a flash in the pan season from Jordan Eberle.
Great story, except that the market for Hall and Eberle's second contracts were set by the Skinner signing earlier that summer.
 
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Little Fury

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I really thought we were done being losers when Chiarelli was hired but the best the Oilers can hope for at this very moment is first round fodder for Nashville or San Jose.

That's because, best case scenario, we're 2-3 years away from a window cracking open. Not much to do between now and then but wait and hope.
 

belair

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Apr 9, 2010
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Great story, except that the market for Hall and Eberle's second contracts were set by the Skinner signing earlier that summer.
Maybe so, but it doesn't discredit the fact that these contracts set a poor standard organizationally. Even Jeff Skinner, who made less, never lived up to expectations of that contract and thus received a very lukewarm trade return. In Edmonton, those three $6m men were the future until they weren't.
 

McShogun99

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Aug 30, 2009
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Well that's just it, isn't it? Considering our cap there's exactly one thing we can afford to sign right now: Nothing.

17/18+18/19
Rattie 239 mins 6 G 5 A 11 pts 1.5 G/60; 2.8 pts/60
McD 239 mins 5 G 11 A 16 pts 1.3 G/60; 4.0 pts/60

15/16 + 16/17
Eberle 990 mins 24 G 23 A 47 pts 1.5 G/60; 2.8 pts/60
McD 990 mins 11 G 39 A 50 pts 0.7 G/60; 3.0 pts/60

Consider also that 7 G 5 A from Eberle came on the PP. None of Rattie's point came on the PP.

Eberle was the perfect RW for McD at the time, or at least everyone thought so, right now Rattie has done as well despite a slowish start to this season. Interesting to see how this looks going forward. To me it looks very much like Eberle was complimentary winger, who obviously could produce with good team mates, and Rattie is of the same mould albeit less talented but more opportunistic.

Considering our cap I take Rattie over Eberle every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The same Rattie with 21 points over parts of the last 7 seasons? He had a nice 14 game stint and preseason but there's no way you take him over Eberle. Eberle is a lock for 50-60 points no matter who he plays with. Rattie is in the AHL if he isn't on Mcdavid's wing and even then there still isn't enough proof that shows he's an NHL player. Obviously we can't afford Eberle or any other player right now but that has to do with PC's cap mismanagement.
 

McShogun99

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Maybe so, but it doesn't discredit the fact that these contracts set a poor standard organizationally. Even Jeff Skinner, who made less, never lived up to expectations of that contract and thus received a very lukewarm trade return. In Edmonton, those three $6m men were the future until they weren't.

I'll add that they all lived up or exceeded their contracts when you look at their com-parables. Hall exceeded his contract while RNH and Eberle at worst were 5.5 million players.
 

Took a pill in Sbisa

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Speaking of Eberle, he's got 0 goals and 2 assists in the Islanders first 7 games despite being on PP1. In his contract year.
He always did have a knack for stepping up when the stakes were higher.
 

StevenF1919

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Oct 9, 2017
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Maybe so, but it doesn't discredit the fact that these contracts set a poor standard organizationally. Even Jeff Skinner, who made less, never lived up to expectations of that contract and thus received a very lukewarm trade return. In Edmonton, those three $6m men were the future until they weren't.
You don't honestly believe that Hall didn't live up to his contract do you?
 

Frank the Tank

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Maybe so, but it doesn't discredit the fact that these contracts set a poor standard organizationally. Even Jeff Skinner, who made less, never lived up to expectations of that contract and thus received a very lukewarm trade return. In Edmonton, those three $6m men were the future until they weren't.
If we look back to that time, we were all worried that Hall, Eberle, RNH, etc... were going to be the next Weight, Guerin, Pronger, Peca, Spacek, Smyth, etc... who left for more money and/or personal reasons. Overall, the Oilers were still trying to establish themselves as an organization that would pay star players, and have players consider Edmonton be a market in which they wanted to play.

It seems to be a theme over the past few decades where the Oilers continue to pay for the ghosts of the past; always one step behind the rest of the league.
 
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Stoneman89

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They also traded away a left winger who was averaging around sixty points a year. Take a look at the recent history of where wingers are valued on the trade market and it's not pretty. There's always going to be the argument that you simply 'don't trade' these guys but the trade was made from a needs-based perspective--one which included cap management. If you go back and read my POV regarding the Eberle contract and why these guys were troublesome in regards to the cap situation, we were kind of doomed from the get go regarding all three of those $6m forwards--RNH included since he set the benchmark for how much a mediocre second line scoring center costs.

In terms of organizational depth, we're not as far away as people want to think. We're not even as bad this year as the masses here are lamenting.


Once again, I stated that I wasn't against the trades being made, given the imbalance on the team, and the need to open up cap space. My issue, as mentioned, was the return on the pieces traded away.

As to the depth, I am not going to dispute that we MAY have some good prospects in there, but how are you so cocksure? Remember, Pajarvi and Yak were slam dunks when we drafted them. So you can see that nothing is for sure, and just because there are some arrows pointing up with some players, doesn't mean they are going to be decent NHLers.
 

belair

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If we look back to that time, we were all worried that Hall, Eberle, RNH, etc... were going to be the next Weight, Guerin, Pronger, Peca, Spacek, Smyth, etc... who left for more money and/or personal reasons. Overall, the Oilers were still trying to establish themselves as an organization that would pay star players, and have players consider Edmonton be a market in which they wanted to play.

It seems to be a theme over the past few decades where the Oilers continue to pay for the ghosts of the past; always one step behind the rest of the league.
I don't think those three ever fell into that category considering the Oilers had team control with all of them. If anything we played our hands poorly there, signing all of them into UFA status--though I'm not entirely certain that would've been avoidable considering the draft pedigree of Hall and RNH.

In regards to the second paragraph, I don't know what to tell you. The Oilers have had issues with drafting and development leading back to the '90s--even then, there were some very notable doozies. You're always going to be behind the curve when you're always filling in the holes on your roster through the free agent and trade market.

You don't honestly believe that Hall didn't live up to his contract do you?
The comment was specifically aimed at Jeff Skinner. Whether or not our players 'lived up to' these contracts is besides the point in the grander scheme. The point was that these players were paid as primary contributors and given every opportunity to take the reins and ultimately all of them ended up being players who would play second fiddle on the future roster, yet their contracts remained as the benchmark for any future player in this organization--and apparently other organizations--who outproduced them.
 
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Frank the Tank

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I still don't see how Hall and Eberle's contract set the benchmark when you have the precedents of Duchene, Tavares, Skinner, etc... second contracts. Seguin also signed within a few weeks at the same amount. $5.5-6M/season was the going rate for young star players coming off their ELC circa 2011-12.
 
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Soundwave

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I still don't see how Hall and Eberle's contract set the benchmark when you have the precedents of Duchene, Tavares, Skinner, etc... second contracts. Seguin also signed within a few weeks at the same amount. $5.5-6M/season was the going rate for young star players coming off their ELC circa 2011-12.

When was the salary cap ever an issue during the Hall/Eberle era here anyway? As I recall they always had plenty of cap room and there was never really a situation of "oh I wish we could've signed that player who really wanted to come here, but we don't have the cap room!".
 

Little Fury

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Jun 21, 2006
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When was the salary cap ever an issue during the Hall/Eberle era here anyway? As I recall they always had plenty of cap room and there was never really a situation of "oh I wish we could've signed that player who really wanted to come here, but we don't have the cap room!".

Yeah they had $5M in cap space in 14-15 and the only long term commitments were to the Steve Austins, so the idea that they had to clear cap ASAP to lay the groundwork for McDavid's deal is pretty preposterous even when you don't factor in the money that has since gone to worse players.
 

belair

Jay Woodcroft Unemployment Stance
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I still don't see how Hall and Eberle's contract set the benchmark when you have the precedents of Duchene, Tavares, Skinner, etc... second contracts. Seguin also signed within a few weeks at the same amount. $5.5-6M/season was the going rate for young star players coming off their ELC circa 2011-12.
The player agents are always going to use internal comparables primarily if that's what's beneficial for their client. Alternatively, teams can use them to their favor if their case is strong enough. When teams and agents don't have those accurate comparables, they'll look elsewhere.

Notable example is David Pastrnak signing his deal the same year as Leon Draisaitl. Leon's agent goes in stating their case using RNH's deal as their bench mark--Leon looking like a clear upgrade coming off of that playoff run. Don Sweeney comes over the top rope with eternal Selke-candidate Patrice Bergeron's deal--nobody's getting a better deal than that guy in Boston.

The reason why Kyle Dubas is having such a hard time with William Nylander's negotiation is that they really don't have anybody in that organization to fall back on as a decent comparable. If they suddnly signed Mitch Marner tomorrow to a ridiculously low deal--you can be certain Nylander follows suit. But right now, that Draisaitl contract is the argument Willy's agent is bringing to the table.
 

Mr Positive

Cap Crunch Incoming
Nov 20, 2013
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The player agents are always going to use internal comparables primarily if that's what's beneficial for their client. Alternatively, teams can use them to their favor if their case is strong enough. When teams and agents don't have those accurate comparables, they'll look elsewhere.

Notable example is David Pastrnak signing his deal the same year as Leon Draisaitl. Leon's agent goes in stating their case using RNH's deal as their bench mark--Leon looking like a clear upgrade coming off of that playoff run. Don Sweeney comes over the top rope with eternal Selke-candidate Patrice Bergeron's deal--nobody's getting a better deal than that guy in Boston.

The reason why Kyle Dubas is having such a hard time with William Nylander's negotiation is that they really don't have anybody in that organization to fall back on as a decent comparable. If they suddnly signed Mitch Marner tomorrow to a ridiculously low deal--you can be certain Nylander follows suit. But right now, that Draisaitl contract is the argument Willy's agent is bringing to the table.
This has been argued to death, but no, that's not how comparables work imho. It goes league-wide, not within the team. Sure, internally maybe Boston didn't want Pastrnak making more than Bergeron, but they got that by giving less UFA years than Draisaitl got. The same thing happened with Gaudreau. Pastrnak also wasn't as valuable as Draisaitl at the time of signing, so the number is pretty much the league market value. As for Drai's comparables, it's pretty easy to see that they were guys like Johansen, Kuznetzov, and Tarasenko, not RNH. And, there are understandable reasons why Draisaitl got more cash than those three.
 

Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
Sep 13, 2004
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I think this thread title is a bit more accurate. Because until/if Chia is let go this is the place for those that are ready to hang him by the short and curlies.
 

Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
Sep 13, 2004
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I REALLY hope that we use some of the LTIR space at some point this season as it would be a gigantic waste otherwise. If by chance we are in the running for the postseason and haven't used a dime of the LTIR $ and Sekera is out for the year how much c could we bring in @Fourier ? Could we in theory add a top 6 RW and a rental defenseman if there are any out there?
 
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