Player Discussion Peter Cehlarik - II

[dafoomie]

I’m not being a smartass, asking seriously, but the last one standing out of which group of prospects that people thought would provide secondary scoring?

Heinen and DeBrusk are providing that, Donato didn’t and was traded, Bjork didn’t and was hurt. I don’t have Frederic in the same category because of age/experience, so that leaves Senyshyn. I’m not sure anyone was counting on him for secondary scoring this year?

I think Cehlarik can be an effective NHL player in the right situation, but your opening line about Marchand is kind of ridiculous. I watched Marchand a fair amount at the AHL level, he was much better than Cehlarik and a dominant player at that level. The other difference was that the B’s brought Marchand up and after the first 6/7 games, he was relegated to a 4th line role. Marchand was able to play in the Bottom 3 for the rest of that year and the beginning of the next, learn the NHL game and then transition into a bigger role. He was also a much better defensive player than Cehlarik.

IMO, Cehlarik is not capable of doing that in the system that Boston runs. He’s a guy that needs to play with skill guys or else he doesn’t give you much of anything. I will say that if/when the B’s are healthy and the third line has MoJo/Heinen and Coyle there, I would prefer Cehlarik to Backes or Nordstrom as the third member of that line. The other two players will be defensively responsible and have enough skill to make Cehlarik an effective option. What’s more likely to happen is that Backes will slot on there and the B’s will have a decision to make on Cehlarik in the offseason.

In camp, they had 3 guys fighting for one center spot and none of them won it. They had another 3 going for two spots on the wing, Donato, Bjork, and Cehlarik. Heinen and DeBrusk were already being counted on for offense and weren't playing for a roster spot. Nobody from this hyped up prospect pool took a spot this year.

If the system is preventing them from utilizing the skilled players they have, the system is holding them back.

 

[jgatie]

You're spot on about the JDB's and Pastas of this team not being the issue. The issue is the Senyshyns, Reilly Smiths, Spooners, Wheelers, Cehlariks, Donatos, and Frank Vatranos of this world. Those guys have all come here and been wildly misused and/or miscast in roles that their skill sets were simply ill suited for. They all moved on and showed at least some value to other teams. Think of it this way. Marchand was a 4th line stiff to start and thankfully he progressed, since the initial use of his skill was grinder/PK specialist. And I get people don't like to hear or don't want to be critical, but the way they've developed is at the very least a little concerning to me.

Spooner? What "other team" is that, the Tallahassee Warthogs?

 

[Mainehockey33]

And yet they've been drafting offensive minded guys and trying to change their games every time, to very mixed results.

Probably because defense is easier to teach than offense. If they draft defense minded guys that never put up numbers, there’s no way they’re going to be taught to put up points at the pro level.

 

[Mainehockey33]

You're spot on about the JDB's and Pastas of this team not being the issue. The issue is the Senyshyns, Reilly Smiths, Spooners, Wheelers, Cehlariks, Donatos, and Frank Vatranos of this world. Those guys have all come here and been wildly misused and/or miscast in roles that their skill sets were simply ill suited for. They all moved on and showed at least some value to other teams. Think of it this way. Marchand was a 4th line stiff to start and thankfully he progressed, since the initial use of his skill was grinder/PK specialist. And I get people don't like to hear or don't want to be critical, but the way they've developed is at the very least a little concerning to me.

All of the players you listed would be invisible for stretches as a Bruin. They were terrible offensively, even Wheeler. The fact that Krug is still on the team tells me that if you’re above average offensively and give effort most nights, that’s good enough.

 

[LSCII]

Probably because defense is easier to teach than offense. If they draft defense minded guys that never put up numbers, there’s no way they’re going to be taught to put up points at the pro level.

That would be good if they let the guys contribute the skill they were drafted for while working on their overall game, but they don't. They tear the players entire game down to the studs, and you end up with a high end offensive talent like Senyshyn trying to learn how to grind on the third line in Providence. Seems like a long way to go if you really wanted a grinder, but what do I know?

 

[LSCII]

All of the players you listed would be invisible for stretches as a Bruin. They were terrible offensively, even Wheeler. The fact that Krug is still on the team tells me that if you’re above average offensively and give effort most nights, that’s good enough.

The question is whether they would have been invisible for stretches had they been allowed to utilize their actual skill set instead of recreating the way they play? It's no great secret that Donato commented after he played his first games in MN that he was finally playing on instinct instead of overthinking everything he did on the ice. That's the dynamic I'm talking about. If you wanted a Trent Frederic type, why are you drafting a scorer and forcing him to change his game? Seems counter intuitive to even do that, no?

 

[LSCII]

Spooner? What "other team" is that, the Tallahassee Warthogs?

Despite his flaming out hard, he still had initial success in NY. And again, it's not that he's a guy you couldn't move on from. It's that they drafted him and then went about changing the entire way he played.

 

[jgatie]

Despite his flaming out hard, he still had initial success in NY. And again, it's not that he's a guy you couldn't move on from. It's that they drafted him and then went about changing the entire way he played.

What value did they destroy if "the entire way he played" got him a trade/adrenaline fueled 20 games with the Rangers followed by an express trip to the Bakersfield Condors? He was a scorer who wasn't scoring, a 2nd round talent who refused to add other dimensions to his game, and 2nd round talents do not survive on one dimension. "Changing the entire way he played" was the only way Ryan Spooner was going to stick in the NHL, hence after his refusal to change his game, he's wearing this:

And PS - You can't blame Cassidy's or the Bruins' philosophy on 200 foot players for Spooner's demise, it was the Bruins who gave him far more opportunity to shine.

 

[LSCII]

What value did they destroy if "the entire way he played" got him a trade/adrenaline fueled 20 games with the Rangers followed by an express trip to the Bakersfield Condors? He was a scorer who wasn't scoring, a 2nd round talent who refused to add other dimensions to his game, and 2nd round talents do not survive on one dimension. "Changing the entire way he played" was the only way Ryan Spooner was going to stick in the NHL, hence after his refusal to change his game, he's wearing this:

View attachment 199561

That's great you locked on one player that hasn't amounted to much out of the 7 or 8 examples I gave. What about the rest of those guys? How'd they work out so far?

 

[jgatie]

That's great you locked on one player that hasn't amounted to much out of the 7 or 8 examples I gave. What about the rest of those guys? How'd they work out so far?

I locked on that one because it was so obvious an outlier, and it was foolish of you to include him. What can I say, I like pointing out foolishness.

 

[Saxon Eric]

 

[LSCII]

I locked on that one because it was so obvious an outlier, and it was foolish of you to include him. What can I say, I like pointing out foolishness.

So it's an outlier in the results after their time in Boston, but not one if you consider their time here and his struggles with how his game really wasn't a fit with their style. Which is why I included him. If I hadn't, I'm sure someone would have been more than happy to point it out and say I was cherry picking the examples by not including him. I also like to consider the entire picture rather than snip it and give just a partial view.

 

[elMatador]

The question is whether they would have been invisible for stretches had they been allowed to utilize their actual skill set instead of recreating the way they play? It's no great secret that Donato commented after he played his first games in MN that he was finally playing on instinct instead of overthinking everything he did on the ice. That's the dynamic I'm talking about. If you wanted a Trent Frederic type, why are you drafting a scorer and forcing him to change his game? Seems counter intuitive to even do that, no?

For what it's worth Cehlarik mentioned one interesting bit in an interview in January. Bruins brass try to curve the development of young guys by showing them Bergeron's game as an prime example. While I understand why they use Bergeron as a prototype how many more Bergerons are actually out there in the league? None, his skillset and the way he can influence the game in both ways is so unique.

 

[LSCII]

For what it's worth Cehlarik mentioned one interesting bit in an interview in January. Bruins brass try to curve the development of young guys by showing them Bergeron's game as an prime example. While I understand why they use Bergeron as a prototype how many more Bergerons are actually out there in the league? None, his skillset and the way he can influence the game in both ways is so unique.

I've said it many times here that the team is way too focused with finding the next Bergeron instead of letting their young guys be who they are naturally.

And you're spot on. There are so very few guys that can even come close to what Bergy is that it's an unrealistic ask to expect their prospects to emulate that.

 

[jgatie]

So it's an outlier in the results after their time in Boston, but not one if you consider their time here and his struggles with how his game really wasn't a fit with their style. Which is why I included him. If I hadn't, I'm sure someone would have been more than happy to point it out and say I was cherry picking the examples by not including him. I also like to consider the entire picture rather than snip it and give just a partial view.

His game didn't fit their style because the one thing his game was based on, he pretty much sucked at, and that includes here, NYC, and Edmonton.

So c'mon Lonnie, you included him because you think they did him wrong, and in Lonnie World, that's all it takes to rewrite the story. Just like nobody complained about Phil Kessel's game before he was traded, and nobody mentioned Seguin's partying ways until he was traded, reality is what you like it to be in Lonnie World!

 

[Mainehockey33]

That would be good if they let the guys contribute the skill they were drafted for while working on their overall game, but they don't. They tear the players entire game down to the studs, and you end up with a high end offensive talent like Senyshyn trying to learn how to grind on the third line in Providence. Seems like a long way to go if you really wanted a grinder, but what do I know?

I actually agree with you on Senyshyn. How they’ve handled him is bizarre. Can’t they teach him defense in the top 6? Or maybe there is something valuable to learn on the 3rd line, but I would think he’s either learned it by now or he never will. I’d rather see if he can put up offensive numbers in a professional league.

I think the way they’ve handled Senyshyn is different than any other prospect, which is why I can’t figure it out.

 

[Mainehockey33]

The question is whether they would have been invisible for stretches had they been allowed to utilize their actual skill set instead of recreating the way they play? It's no great secret that Donato commented after he played his first games in MN that he was finally playing on instinct instead of overthinking everything he did on the ice. That's the dynamic I'm talking about. If you wanted a Trent Frederic type, why are you drafting a scorer and forcing him to change his game? Seems counter intuitive to even do that, no?

Because if Donato actually put effort into things like defense and making plays, he’d be a useful player. The Bruins cup window is now and there’s no room for soft floaters that don’t bring anything to the team. I’ll be really surprised if Donato puts up points in the playoffs. Looks like the post trade adrenaline has worn off, or he is what he was here, a streaky goal scorer that doesn’t bring anything else.

 

[Fenian24]

Despite his flaming out hard, he still had initial success in NY. And again, it's not that he's a guy you couldn't move on from. It's that they drafted him and then went about changing the entire way he played.

I agree, they never should have drafted him.

If you are going to play a defense first, last and always style why try to jam a round peg in a square hole? Why take the Koko's, Spooner's, etc if you know they don't play the style you want? Is it because they think they can turn a Spooner into a 200 foot player because he wants to play in the NHL? Maybe you will get some younger players to change their style to play in the NHL but a lot (Spooner seeming to be a good example) expect the team to change to him and that is not going to happen unless you are a generational talent.

The style has gotten softer here as it has in the league but if you continue to want to play a defense first, grind it out style, even adding some speed and skill to the line up, draft accordingly. Don't draft a one way player who has no interest in playing a 200 foot game and then expect him to change, maybe they scout well but it may be the interview process where they are missing.

They could never make Hamilton care, why not make another pick or trade down or out of that draft if you have a good idea, regardless of talent, that he is not going to be the type of player to fit your system. The Devils did this better than anybody, picking players to fit the system and won multiple cups doing so, regardless of how I felt about their style.

 

[LSCII]

His game didn't fit their style because the one thing his game was based on, he pretty much sucked at, and that includes here, NYC, and Edmonton.

So c'mon Lonnie, you included him because you think they did him wrong, and in Lonnie World, that's all it takes to rewrite the story. Just like nobody complained about Phil Kessel's game before he was traded, and nobody mentioned Seguin's partying ways until he was traded, reality is what you like it to be in Lonnie World!

Nah. I care very little about the individual players and I'd literally trade anyone if the right deal came along. The reason he was on the list I made was due solely to him having beef with the organization and how he was used. Simple as that. No agenda. No ulterior motive. Just that he was very vocal about it.

Seguin and Kessel are wildly different given they had success here and success elsewhere. And you clearly don't remember correctly because there were plenty of people who had issues with their games while they were here.

Good soap box rant though, well done!!

 

[LSCII]

I agree, they never should have drafted him.

If you are going to play a defense first, last and always style why try to jam a round peg in a square hole? Why take the Koko's, Spooner's, etc if you know they don't play the style you want? Is it because they think they can turn a Spooner into a 200 foot player because he wants to play in the NHL? Maybe you will get some younger players to change their style to play in the NHL but a lot (Spooner seeming to be a good example) expect the team to change to him and that is not going to happen unless you are a generational talent.

The style has gotten softer here as it has in the league but if you continue to want to play a defense first, grind it out style, even adding some speed and skill to the line up, draft accordingly. Don't draft a one way player who has no interest in playing a 200 foot game and then expect him to change, maybe they scout well but it may be the interview process where they are missing.

They could never make Hamilton care, why not make another pick or trade down or out of that draft if you have a good idea, regardless of talent, that he is not going to be the type of player to fit your system. The Devils did this better than anybody, picking players to fit the system and won multiple cups doing so, regardless of how I felt about their style.

Exactly. It's insane to draft a player that doesn't fit what you want and then expect them to fit what you want.

 

[LSCII]

Because if Donato actually put effort into things like defense and making plays, he’d be a useful player. The Bruins cup window is now and there’s no room for soft floaters that don’t bring anything to the team. I’ll be really surprised if Donato puts up points in the playoffs. Looks like the post trade adrenaline has worn off, or he is what he was here, a streaky goal scorer that doesn’t bring anything else.

So you're saying everyone has to be a complete 2 way player and play on the PP and PK in order to be in this league? Most other teams would disagree with you.

Young streaky players are going to be streaky. Hell, David Krejci has been a streaky player his entire career, yet he's useful, no? That streaky play simply means he's (Donato) likely never going to be an elite player, but he should and could be a regular NHL player.

But if you want to play it out the way you suggest, I guess the question would be if he's so soft and so streaky and so unwilling to play defense, why would the team draft him? If the error isn't in the development, then it has to be in the scouting, no?

 

[Sheppy]

Maybe I’m completely off here, but I get Benoit Pouliot vibes with Cehlarik.

 

[jgatie]

Seguin and Kessel are wildly different given they had success here and success elsewhere. And you clearly don't remember correctly because there were plenty of people who had issues with their games while they were here.

Uhhhh Lonnie, those were summations of your statements on Kessel/Seguin, not mine. You were the one who claimed the complaints about Kessel's weight room habits and lack of physicality, and Seguin's party animal persona were manufactured by the Bruins PR assassination squad after the trade, remember?

 

[Mainehockey33]

So you're saying everyone has to be a complete 2 way player and play on the PP and PK in order to be in this league? Most other teams would disagree with you.

Young streaky players are going to be streaky. Hell, David Krejci has been a streaky player his entire career, yet he's useful, no? That streaky play simply means he's (Donato) likely never going to be an elite player, but he should and could be a regular NHL player.

But if you want to play it out the way you suggest, I guess the question would be if he's so soft and so streaky and so unwilling to play defense, why would the team draft him? If the error isn't in the development, then it has to be in the scouting, no?

Even when Krejci isn’t producing he’s not completely useless.

Krug is a perfect example that not everyone has to be a complete two way player.

Sweeney saw an opportunity to make the team better by trading a prospect with offensive talent. The Bruins are in win now mode and they traded Donato because he isn’t good enough to help now and actually has value. I don’t think there’s any big conspiracies here.

 

[LSCII]

Uhhhh Lonnie, those were summations of your statements on Kessel/Seguin, not mine. You were the one who claimed the complaints about Kessel's weight room habits and lack of physicality, and Seguin's party animal persona were manufactured by the Bruins PR assassination squad after the trade, remember?

No, not at all. I never said they were manufactured by the team. I said they were used by the team to justify making unpopular moves and to help them win the spin game. Big difference. And they were absolutely used by the team to do that, as a lot of teams do.