Percentage of Canadian NHL players drops to 45%

[Jets4Life]

you are simply deflecting and not providing proof...

You had made a claim that the average Canadian player is superior to the average American player. The onus of proof lies on the individual making the claim. I asked you for proof. That's not deflecting.

times have changed, if you think the European leagues in the 80's and 90's have not changed until now, I have nothing left to contribute. I do not have to prove anything to you, it is common sense, you seem to be in bizzaro world when it comes to Canada and the US...the US is closing the gap, but for every elite player we (the US) produces, Canada produces two

1. I never said European leagues were not evolving. The sport of hockey is perpetually evolving in every country. You claimed that more and more European players chose to play at home, since salaries have increased in Europe. I countered with the fact that salaries in the NHL (and in the AHL) have increased exponentially since the 80s/90s in North America, so the two events offset each other. You have yet to prove any of your claims. There is absolutely no evidence that suggests European players are more reluctant to come to North America to play professional hockey, just as there is no evidence North American hockey players are more or less reluctant to play in Europe.

2. Did you even look at the first post I made, as well as the link that backs up the information? IN the NHL, 45.3% of players were born in Canada. 27.3% of players were born in the USA. In other words, Canada produces approximately 1.7 times the amount of NHL players that the United States produces. Nobody has said anything to the contrary.

...and if I have to show you this..

This is the problem with your arguments. You have yet to produce any evidence whatsoever of the claims you have made.

 

[AmericanDream]

You had made a claim that the average Canadian player is superior to the average American player. The onus of proof lies on the individual making the claim. I asked you for proof. That's not deflecting.



1. I never said European leagues were not evolving. The sport of hockey is perpetually evolving in every country. You claimed that more and more European players chose to play at home, since salaries have increased in Europe. I countered with the fact that salaries in the NHL (and in the AHL) have increased exponentially since the 80s/90s in North America, so the two events offset each other. You have yet to prove any of your claims. There is absolutely no evidence that suggests European players are more reluctant to come to North America to play professional hockey, just as there is no evidence North American hockey players are more or less reluctant to play in Europe.

2. Did you even look at the first post I posted, as well as the link that backs up the information? IN the NHL, 45.3% of players were born in Canada. 27.3% of players were born in the USA. In other words, Canada produces approximately 1.7 times the amount of NHL players that the United States produces. Nobody has said anything to the contrary.



This is the problem with your arguments. You have yet to produce any evidence whatsoever of the claims you have made.

never made a claim the average Canadian player is better than the average US player...if this has to be explained to you, not sure what to say...What I have said is the US is simply behind in terms of talent with Canada, for every star player the US produces, Canada produces 2...how you can say what you said is beyond me...literally beyond me,...you have produced zero evidence to your claims, and ignore all of mine...honestly, if you want to say US is right there with Canada, happy to take it...but reality is still different, you are either ignoring what I am saying or just being lazy with doing your own research...all good either way. the facts say different, but you ignore them. you have proven zero, which is the most ironic part of this...and that is the problem with your topic...
I asked you to make a team Canada to compare against a team USA...and you haven't...

you apparently think the gap is non existent so list the the top 20 North American players in your mind...lets see how many are US or Canadian..............I am sure this won't get answered like the rest havent...

 

[Jets4Life]

never made a claim the average Canadian player is better than the average US player...if this has to be explained to you, not sure what to say...What I have said is the US is simply behind in terms of talent with Canada, for every star player the US produces, Canada produces 2...how you can say what you said is beyond me...literally beyond me,...you have produced zero evidence to your claims, and ignore all of mine...honestly, if you want to say US is right there with Canada, happy to take it...but reality is still different, you are either ignoring what I am saying or just being lazy with doing your own research...all good either way. the facts say different, but you ignore them. you have proven zero, which is the most ironic part of this...and that is the problem with your topic...
I asked you to make a team Canada to compare against a team USA...and you haven't...

you apparently think the gap is non existent so list the the top 20 North American players in your mind...lets see how many are US or Canadian..............I am sure this won't get answered like the rest havent...

Calm down.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You had made a claim that the average Canadian player is superior to the average American player. The onus of proof lies on the individual making the claim. I asked you for proof. That's not deflecting.



1. I never said European leagues were not evolving. The sport of hockey is perpetually evolving in every country. You claimed that more and more European players chose to play at home, since salaries have increased in Europe. I countered with the fact that salaries in the NHL (and in the AHL) have increased exponentially since the 80s/90s in North America, so the two events offset each other. You have yet to prove any of your claims. There is absolutely no evidence that suggests European players are more reluctant to come to North America to play professional hockey, just as there is no evidence North American hockey players are more or less reluctant to play in Europe.

2. Did you even look at the first post I made, as well as the link that backs up the information? IN the NHL, 45.3% of players were born in Canada. 27.3% of players were born in the USA. In other words, Canada produces approximately 1.7 times the amount of NHL players that the United States produces. Nobody has said anything to the contrary.



This is the problem with your arguments. You have yet to produce o any evidence whatsoever of the claims you have made.

1950s thru 1970s NHL did not match salaries for the likes of Sven Tumba, Ulf Sterner, Erich Kunhackel.

Difference today is that the KHL and other European leagues pay attractive salaries t0 expired or non NHL Canadian talents.

 

[Jets4Life]

1950s thru 1970s NHL did not match salaries for the likes of Sven Tumba, Ulf Sterner, Erich Kunhackel.

It was before my time, but I ahve heard that Europeans were viewed as too "soft" for the NHL. That started to change when the WHA Winnipeg Jets brought in around 10 Scandinavians on to their roster.

Difference today is that the KHL and other European leagues pay attractive salaries t0 expired or non NHL Canadian talents.

I know that there are quite a few North Americans playing in the KHL. A lot of North Americans seem to go over to Europe to finish off their careers, some go after failing to obtain a full time roster spot in the NHL.

There was a famous case about former Islander 1984 first round pick Duncan Macpherson, who went to Europe after failing to make the NHL. He disappeared on a skiing trip to Austria in 1989. His frozen remains were recovered in 2003. The CBC did a big documentary on the case a few years ago.

 

[Canadiens1958]

It was before my time, but I ahve heard that Europeans were viewed as too "soft" for the NHL. That started to change when the WHA Winnipeg Jets brought in around 10 Scandinavians on to their roster.



I know that there are quite a few North Americans playing in the KHL. A lot of North Americans seem to go over to Europe to finish off their careers, some go after failing to obtain a full time roster spot in the NHL.

There was a famous case about former Islander 1984 first round pick Duncan Macpherson, who went to Europe after failing to make the NHL. He disappeared on a skiing trip to Austria in 1989. His frozen remains were recovered in 2003. The CBC did a big documentary on the case a few years ago.

Sven Tumba went to the Bruins camp in 1957 playing pre-season games and a five game pro tryout in the QHL at the start of the season. Turned down a pro contract.

None of his QHL teammates or opponents considered him soft.

Misadventures everywhere in the world. Regardless jobs are created and the game grows.

 

[Dingo]

Sven Tumba went to the Bruins camp in 1957 playing pre-season games and a five game pro tryout in the QHL at the start of the season. Turned down a pro contract.

None of his QHL teammates or opponents considered him soft.

Misadventures everywhere in the world. Regardless jobs are created and the game grows.

Sven was a big guy, and an outlier in terms of talent for a Swede back then.
There is no doubt that there was a widely recited belief that Euros were too soft in the 70s, 80s and early 90s.
It was mostly bullshit, but I definitely grew up with that. Don Cherry at his weekly pulpit, and all the kids, hockey players or just fans, bought into it.
It wasn’t ALL bullshit, either, as the game was played differently over there. It was no wonder that smaller guys rose to the top in leagues where physical contact was diminished and fighting was/is outlawed. Hakan Loob, Mats Naslund, many of the older Soviet forwards that we never saw... Gradin, etc. were built for a speed and finesse game. My generation came to a false conclusion that ‘those people’ were that way, not like big ol Canadians, lol. The truth is, athletes will rise up where they are suited. Several very skilled people I grew up with, who weren’t built for the ugliness of DPE hockey, carved out fine careers in Europe, whilst the bigger Euros made the big bucks here.
I also know several people still, now that we are in our forties, who still play the soft Euro card. I think often it is based in insecurity... makes them feel tougher through association with the tougher side of Canadian hockey.
The Euros who made careers here were never soft. You couldn’t have made it if you were. But they also were not very big and very rarely gave it back physically, until the 90s, basically, and with exceptions (the Stastnys took zero shit, for instance...... yet, good example, got called ‘sisters’)

 

[Zine]

You do realize the pay has risen exponentially in North America, so that negates the pay increase in Europe.

Pay increases are not linear though. The rate of increase for a hockey player in Russia engulfs anything from North America.
Keep in mind, the KHL is currently the 2nd highest paying league, whereas 20 years ago some teams could barely afford equipment.

It should come as no surprise that North America and Europe were flooded with Russians in the 1990s/early 2000s; however today it's extremely common for a KHLer to be hesitant to venture to the NHL if a stint in the AHL is possible.

 

[Jets4Life]

Pay increases are not linear though. The rate of increase for a hockey player in Russia engulfs anything from North America.
Keep in mind, the KHL is currently the 2nd highest paying league, whereas 20 years ago some teams could barely afford equipment.

It should come as no surprise that North America and Europe were flooded with Russians in the 1990s/early 2000s; however today it's extremely common for a KHLer to be hesitant to venture to the NHL if a stint in the AHL is possible.

The KHL has only existed since 2008, so it does not explain the decrease of Russian born NHL from 2001-08.

 

[Zine]

The KHL has only existed since 2008, so it does not explain the decrease of Russian born NHL from 2001-08.

The RSL was the precursor to the KHL, which, after nearly folding in the 1990s (causing a mass exodus of talent), slowly but steadily started recovering financially in the 2000s making it a viable option for many Russians even before the formation of the KHL.

Take note, it wasn't just the NHL that saw a decrease in Russian talent during this time frame. The exact same phenomenon was being mirrored in the AHL, SEL, SM Liiga, DEL, NLA, etc.

 

[SoCalJetsFan]

This sucks....

Sorry, but I couldn't care less if this is good for the sport. As a Canadian hockey fan, this really, really, sucks.

Agreed

I think part of the problem is how grossly incompetent the management of the Canadian hockey teams has been over the last 25 years. Also I read an article that there were more kids in organized soccer than organized hockey in Canada. The cost of having your kid in hockey is pretty daunting for lots of families.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Agreed

I think part of the problem is how grossly incompetent the management of the Canadian hockey teams has been over the last 25 years. Also I read an article that there were more kids in organized soccer than organized hockey in Canada. The cost of having your kid in hockey is pretty daunting for lots of families.

Just my 2 cents.

More players on the field at any given time and on team rosters as a result.

Also immigrant kids gravitate to soccer since parents played and coach. The Canadian born generation that follows, drifts back to hockey.

Key is playing sports.

 

[Jets4Life]

More players on the field at any given time and on team rosters as a result.

Also immigrant kids gravitate to scoccer since parents played and coach. The Canadian born generation that follows, drifts back to hockey.

Key is playing sports.

Here is a look at actual statistics on the number and percentage of immigrants coming to Canada each year, since World War 2.

150 years of immigration in Canada

Immigration patterns have remained relatively steady since the early 1990s. Children of immigrants and their families playing hockey has less to do with traditions of their ethnic countries, and everything to do with money. Children of rich immigrants are exponentially more likely to play hockey than children of poor immigrants. It's becoming more and more a rich person's sport.

 

[Bank Shot]

The KHL has only existed since 2008, so it does not explain the decrease of Russian born NHL from 2001-08.

I think its a money issue for the former soviet block countries.

The reigning communists supported dedicated sports programs surely in some part as a propaganda tool to show they were on par with the west.

Those things get put on the back burner when politicians have to justify spending.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I think its a money issue for the former soviet block countries.

The reigning communists supported dedicated sports programs surely in some part as a propaganda tool to show they were on par with the west.

Those things get put on the back burner when politicians have to justify spending.

Sochi facilities and the resulting spread of facilities thru secondary events will produce a upward growth pattern just like Canada post 1976,1988,2010.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

It’s pretty surprising to me to see that Canada is at 45% and the US 27%. Canadians can still harp on their dominance of the sport, sure... but that’s a massive number for the Americans and here’s why. Nobody in this country plays hockey. There is a few concentrated areas, like St. Louis, Minnesota, Michigan, Greater New England, etc. Despite the difference in size of the total populations, Canada still has more kids playing hockey by onlh more than 100,000. This is the biggest sport there too.

For the size of the US, 500K kids and change is a tiny number. As hockey grows and becomes more ingrained in the culture, the US will slowly (100 years) take over the mantle of having the most NHLers. It’s going to become a sheer numbers game.

 

[AmericanDream]

Calm down.

you still haven't countered what I said...the top players from Canada are deeper and more talented overall then the US right now...I wish it was the other way around, but it just isn't. you were stating things and not backing it up, so I probably could have done with 3 or 4 less sentences in my last post as it was redundant, so for that I will apologize for the overuse of certain words.

I just am not seeing what you are seeing, Canada has become stagnant but not in decline.

 

[AmericanDream]

It’s pretty surprising to me to see that Canada is at 45% and the US 27%. Canadians can still harp on their dominance of the sport, sure... but that’s a massive number for the Americans and here’s why. Nobody in this country plays hockey. There is a few concentrated areas, like St. Louis, Minnesota, Michigan, Greater New England, etc. Despite the difference in size of the total populations, Canada still has more kids playing hockey by onlh more than 100,000. This is the biggest sport there too.

For the size of the US, 500K kids and change is a tiny number. As hockey grows and becomes more ingrained in the culture, the US will slowly (100 years) take over the mantle of having the most NHLers. It’s going to become a sheer numbers game.

first bolded -that is not even remotely true..this isn't 1985 anymore..hockey is everywhere, the growth in Arizona, Texas, California, and Colorado is astounding..Illinois hockey is everywhere, I mean everywhere...it will never be baseball or football out here, but USA Hockey just keeps going up and it isn't in just the states you listed.

the gap has closed, American numbers were almost 570,000 registered players for last year, haven't seen what Canada's membership numbers were for 2017-18, but it is under 100,000 difference between the two. the problem with Hockey Canada seems to be their numbers are going down or staying very stagnant for registered youth players... but from 2010 to 2015, Hockey Canada's youth numbers went up, way up in 2014-15...now it is heading downward, but still well above 2008-09 numbers..so it did decline the past 2 years, but still above 2008-2013 registered numbers which softens the blow a bit and puts a bit better optic on it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

first bolded -that is not even remotely true..this isn't 1985 anymore..hockey is everywhere, the growth in Arizona, Texas, California, and Colorado is astounding..Illinois hockey is everywhere, I mean everywhere...it will never be baseball or football out here, but USA Hockey just keeps going up and it isn't in just the states you listed.

the gap has closed, American numbers were almost 570,000 registered players for last year, haven't seen what Canada's membership numbers were for 2017-18, but it is under 100,000 difference between the two. the problem with Hockey Canada seems to be their numbers are going down or staying very stagnant for registered youth players... but from 2010 to 2015, Hockey Canada's youth numbers went up, way up in 2014-15...now it is heading downward, but still well above 2008-09 numbers..so it did decline the past 2 years, but still above 2008-2013 registered numbers which softens the blow a bit and puts a bit better optic on it.

Have to be very careful with the Canada and USA numbers.

Schools playing hockey usually are not part of the Hockey Canada umbrella and numbers, Consequently they cannot participate in HC sanctionned events.

USA Hockey includes all the hockey playing schools in their numbers.

 

[Jumptheshark]

for me this not an issue. The more I travel the more I realise how popular hockey is in some countries. Canadians like to think they are the only ones who love the game..but I would put the Swedes, Fins and Russians against us for the love of the game

 

[AmericanDream]

Have to be very careful with the Canada and USA numbers.

Schools playing hockey usually are not part of the Hockey Canada umbrella and numbers, Consequently they cannot participate in HC sanctionned events.

USA Hockey includes all the hockey playing schools in their numbers.

just going by the same numbers for the past 10 years that both USA Hockey produces and Hockey Canada...

 

[Peiskos]

What is the point in mentioning this? I feel its to insinuate that it has an effect on how Canada will fair in international tournaments, and to that I say : The percentage of Canadians in the NHL is irrelevant to Canada's international hockey success.

Last time I checked you only need what? 23 players to form a national team? Canada will ALWAYS have well over 23 elite players to construct a team.

 

[Peiskos]

you still haven't countered what I said...the top players from Canada are deeper and more talented overall then the US right now...I wish it was the other way around, but it just isn't. you were stating things and not backing it up, so I probably could have done with 3 or 4 less sentences in my last post as it was redundant, so for that I will apologize for the overuse of certain words.

I just am not seeing what you are seeing, Canada has become stagnant but not in decline.

Bet even so, how has Canada become stagnant? that doesn't make sense to me.

We are currently the reigning 2018 World Junior Champions, we also won 2015 World Junior Gold and lost in a shootout in the 2017 World Junior Final.

Canada has had more success at the World Juniors than any other country not only historically but in the past 4 years now with 2 Gold, 1 Silver. How does this lead you to claim stagnation? It may seem long ago but the nation also just recently produced the successor to Sidney Crosby with Connor McDavid, a 20 year old who is already the best player in the world and will remain so for the next 10-15 years.

Canada's U-18 Hlinka Gretzky team also just defeat Sweden to take 2018 Gold a few weeks back, the tournament being one of the few opportunities for Canada to compete with their strongest U-18 national team as we aren't able to send our best to the IIHF U-18 as it conflicts with our CHL playoff schedule. The result is Canada winning 22 of the 28 times the tournament has been hosted.

The mens level speaks for itself, 2002, 2010, 2014 Olympic Gold, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2015, 2016 IIHF WC gold with a shootout away from 2017 WC gold, not to mention 2016 World Cup of Hockey Gold.

NHL Draft wise, more Canadians yet again went in the first round of the 2018 NHL draft.

Looking at the 2019 draft, the story will be the same with an upwards of 5 Canadians going within the top 10.

I'm sorry but I just can't see how Canada is stagnant right now. Canada is as strong as its ever been, other countries may win with slightly more regularity now but that doesn't mean that its because Canada has stagnated, its because those countries have improved on their own to begin to approach the level Canada has always been at, and currently still remains at.

 

[AmericanDream]

Bet even so, how has Canada become stagnant? that doesn't make sense to me.

We are currently the reigning 2018 World Junior Champions, we also won 2015 World Junior Gold and lost in a shootout in the 2017 World Junior Final.

Canada has had more success at the World Juniors than any other country not only historically but in the past 4 years now with 2 Gold, 1 Silver. How does this lead you to claim stagnation? It may seem long ago but the nation also just recently produced the successor to Sidney Crosby with Connor McDavid, a 20 year old who is already the best player in the world and will remain so for the next 10-15 years.

Canada's U-18 Hlinka Gretzky team also just defeat Sweden to take 2018 Gold a few weeks back, the tournament being one of the few opportunities for Canada to compete with their strongest U-18 national team as we aren't able to send our best to the IIHF U-18 as it conflicts with our CHL playoff schedule. The result is Canada winning 22 of the 28 times the tournament has been hosted.

The mens level speaks for itself, 2002, 2010, 2014 Olympic Gold, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2015, 2016 IIHF WC gold with a shootout away from 2017 WC gold, not to mention 2016 World Cup of Hockey Gold.

NHL Draft wise, more Canadians yet again went in the first round of the 2018 NHL draft.

Looking at the 2019 draft, the story will be the same with an upwards of 5 Canadians going within the top 10.

I'm sorry but I just can't see how Canada is stagnant right now. Canada is as strong as its ever been, other countries may win with slightly more regularity now but that doesn't mean that its because Canada has stagnated, its because those countries have improved on their own to begin to approach the level Canada has always been at, and currently still remains at.

look at thread title...I am in disagreement that things are bleak as some make it out to be...BUT IF ANYTHING, they would be stagnant as still producing same level of players and drafts are still featuring similar numbers of players...not declining just staying even which is not a bad thing at all.

 

[Canadiens1958]

look at thread title...I am in disagreement that things are bleak as some make it out to be...BUT IF ANYTHING, they would be stagnant as still producing same level of players and drafts are still featuring similar numbers of players...not declining just staying even which is not a bad thing at all.

NHL Entry drafts are misleading. CHL players' rights are retained by the drafting team for two years. US,European players' rights are retained for four years.