Series Talk: Pens vs Habs Round 1 Best of Five - Episode 3: Déguédine!

[KIRK]

Those replies on twitter are a new level of stupid

Jesse gives "fanboy analysis"? Zucker looked lost in the scrimmages? I mean it's twitter so I'm not expecting better, but still.

I don't want to post it, because it's behind a pay wall, but the videos @Jesse posts show exactly why it will work. Complemented by well elaborated explanations.

One other thing he did was share a chart from Charting Hockey assessing the production of the Pens lines:

1. Jake-Malkin-Rust was the Pens best (something Jesse noted)

2. Zucker-Sid-Simon was among its worst (something Jesse did NOT note but I found interesting given the Zucker and Sid narrative)

I've always said that I look at analytics to confirm what I'm thinking or make me think twice about what I'm seeing (if they tell a different story).

The video, the analytics-- the stuff @Jesse wraps up in one neat package-- kind of elaborates the rationale behind what was my gut instinct that Zucker-Malkin-Rust should kill it (my initial reaction was Zucker is like Rust 2.0 . . . put two guys like that with Malkin, in their natural positions with all that speed, and you get Malkin playing to his strengths, and we saw from Jake-Malkin-Rust what that can mean to the team).

 

[pistolpete11]

Does it they flip Schultz or whoever at the deadline.

But in any case, we will see. I don't think there's anything definite about what will happen with JJ, but there's some pretty nasty worst case scenarios, like having to keep him.

If the scenario is getting a 1st to take on JMFJ, they'd be absolutely foolish to sign Schultz instead and hope that he can stay healthy, not look like ass on a dog shit team, and that there's a team out there that would be willing to trade something equivalent to a 1st for him. A bird in the hand...

 

[Peat]

If the scenario is getting a 1st to take on JMFJ, they'd be absolutely foolish to sign Schultz instead and hope that he can stay healthy, not look like ass on a dog shit team, and that there's a team out there that would be willing to trade something equivalent to a 1st for him. A bird in the hand...

You probably don't get a 1st (although you might) but you do get to keep renting out that space each individual year for three years. Odds of hitting a 1st one of those years, and getting more than a 1st overall, is good.

 

[Gurglesons]

You probably don't get a 1st (although you might) but you do get to keep renting out that space each individual year for three years. Odds of hitting a 1st one of those years, and getting more than a 1st overall, is good.

Sounds like Alfredsson in 2013 tbh.

 

[Peat]

I don't want to post it, because it's behind a pay wall, but the videos @Jesse posts show exactly why it will work. Complemented by well elaborated explanations.

One other thing he did was share a chart from Charting Hockey assessing the production of the Pens lines:

1. Jake-Malkin-Rust was the Pens best (something Jesse noted)

2. Zucker-Sid-Simon was among its worst (something Jesse did NOT note but I found interesting given the Zucker and Sid narrative)

I've always said that I look at analytics to confirm what I'm thinking or make me think twice about what I'm seeing (if they tell a different story).

The video, the analytics-- the stuff @Jesse wraps up in one neat package-- kind of elaborates the rationale behind what was my gut instinct that Zucker-Malkin-Rust should kill it (my initial reaction was Zucker is like Rust 2.0 . . . put two guys like that with Malkin, in their natural positions with all that speed, and you get Malkin playing to his strengths, and we saw from Jake-Malkin-Rust what that can mean to the team).

What Zucker/Sid narrative? What have I missed?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Schultz is going to get hilariously overpaid by someone like Winnipeg this off-season and suck.

I wonder how people will look at Schultz after his career has ended. Sure, he has 2 cups and had that awesome season in 2016-2017, but he's been pretty ghastly in his career overall.

 

[KIRK]

What Zucker/Sid narrative? What have I missed?

The narrative is that Zucker and Sid were really good together. Eye test seemed to show that too. But, if you look at the numbers, it's not so good.

EDIT: Since it's publicly available, I'm going to assume Jesse will forgive my copying and pasting from his article . . .

As you'll note, analytically, the only BAD line among the Pens most used lines was Zucker-Crosby-Simon. That made me rethink my own preconceived notion about the line having been pretty good.

 

[ColePens]

It could all change when the games start up, but the players all around the league don't seem to be treating this like a Cup playoff. I think everyone knows the severity and put life into a little bit of context where a game is just a game. It's nice to see.

Like think about this.. in what world would the Pens/Flyers play one another before a playoffs where the winner ends up possibly playing the Flyers?

So far.. it's a nice little twist. It's nice escapism. And as soon as someone facewashes someone, I'm going to be livid. Be smart here.

 

[KIRK]

Schultz is going to get hilariously overpaid by someone like Winnipeg this off-season and suck.

I wonder how people will look at Schultz after his career has ended. Sure, he has 2 cups and had that awesome season in 2016-2017, but he's been pretty ghastly in his career overall.

I don't know that people will 'look' at him at all, and if they do I can't fathom it would be as anything beyond a player who had a few decent years and won two cups playing with Crosby and Malkin.

 

[KIRK]

It could all change when the games start up, but the players all around the league don't seem to be treating this like a Cup playoff. I think everyone knows the severity and put life into a little bit of context where a game is just a game. It's nice to see.

Like think about this.. in what world would the Pens/Flyers play one another before a playoffs where the winner ends up possibly playing the Flyers?

So far.. it's a nice little twist. It's nice escapism. And as soon as someone facewashes someone, I'm going to be livid. Be smart here.

You better have 911 on speed dial, my friend, because they're going to be putting out missing item reports for your **** about every 20 seconds once the games start.

 

[Gurglesons]

The narrative is that Zucker and Sid were really good together. Eye test seemed to show that too. But, if you look at the numbers, it's not so good.

EDIT: Since it's publicly available, I'm going to assume Jesse will forgive my copying and pasting from his article . . .

As you'll note, analytically, the only BAD line among the Pens most used lines was Zucker-Crosby-Simon. That made me rethink my own preconceived notion about the line having been pretty good.

Zucker - Crosby - Sheary was the good line tho.

 

[KIRK]

EDIT function isn't working, but @ColePens it sure seems that most of the Penguins, starting with Sid and Geno, sure as **** are treating this like a Cup playoffs. Heard similar about Colorado but no clue either way.

 

[Andy99]

The narrative is that Zucker and Sid were really good together. Eye test seemed to show that too. But, if you look at the numbers, it's not so good.

EDIT: Since it's publicly available, I'm going to assume Jesse will forgive my copying and pasting from his article . . .

As you'll note, analytically, the only BAD line among the Pens most used lines was Zucker-Crosby-Simon. That made me rethink my own preconceived notion about the line having been pretty good.

I would like to see how Zucker-Sid-Sheary were in their brief stint, because my eye test was telling me they were pretty damn good...maybe it wasn’t Zucker on that line but the RW? Is there any data for that line?

 

[heysmilinstrange]

Those replies on twitter are a new level of stupid

Jesse gives "fanboy analysis"? Zucker looked lost in the scrimmages? I mean it's twitter so I'm not expecting better, but still.

That's PenguinsChronicles, the Twitter user who's scarily obsessed with hating Letang.

 

[Jesse]

Zucker - Crosby - Sheary was the good line tho.

It didn't have enough minutes at ES to qualify for the chart.

 

[Peat]

@KIRK - Gotcha.

I would make my own chart to display a crucial bit of information but I'm meant to be cooking ramen, so I'll just pose a riddle - Guess which player had a dramatic drag on Zucker-Crosby-Simon, who (in a small sample) were actually more destructive offensively than Guentzel-Malkin-Rust?

 

[Jesse]

That's PenguinsChronicles, the Twitter user who's scarily obsessed with hating Letang.

You know what's funny? When I saw the comment on here about Fanboy Analysis, I thought to myself: I bet that was the chronicles guy.

His obsession with me is also quite frightening. Something about me being a cult leader and carrying water for Kris Letang. Boarderline PFA type stuff from that account.

 

[KIRK]

Zucker - Crosby - Sheary was the good line tho.

Then they didn't play enough to hit this chart, or they were missed.

Looks like 8 games together after Sheary was acquired . . .

Sid had 3g, 3a (3g, 1a at ES) and was a -2 and pointless in 5 of 8
Zucker had 3g, 4a (2g, 3a at ES) and was -1 and pointless in 4 on 8
Sheary had 0g, 3a (all at ES) and was -1 and pointless in 5 of 8

BTW, looking at Sid and Zucker's 7 game stint BEFORE Sheary was acquired, they were similarly productive at ES.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think you have to remember that Crosby wasn't playing well for the most part in Zucker's 15 or so games in Pittsburgh. I don't think you can reasonably say "Zucker and Crosby didn't work because their analytics are bad", because that doesn't include how each was individually playing at the time. When Zucker was here, Crosby started showing signs of really slowing down, I imagine due to his hernia surgery. When the line was Zucker-Crosby-Sheary, it was Zucker and Sheary carrying the load on that line and Crosby generally dragging it down. He was really laboring before the shutdown.

I don't think people can judge a player or line combination based solely on the analytics. Zucker and Crosby looked extremely good together and Zucker was very productive in the spot. I'd be willing to bet any bad analytics for that line were due to Crosby's post-injury struggles.

 

[KIRK]

You know what's funny? When I saw the comment on here about Fanboy Analysis, I thought to myself: I bet that was the chronicles guy.

His obsession with me is also quite frightening. Something about me being a cult leader and carrying water for Kris Letang. Boarderline PFA type stuff from that account.

I'm dying . . .

Great article, BTW.

Question (because @pixiesfanyo mentioned): Where does the Zucker-Crosby-Sheary line fit on the chart from your article?

 

[KIRK]

I think you have to remember that Crosby wasn't playing well for the most part in Zucker's 15 or so games in Pittsburgh. I don't think you can reasonably say "Zucker and Crosby didn't work because their analytics are bad", because that doesn't include how each was individually playing at the time. When Zucker was here, Crosby started showing signs of really slowing down, I imagine due to his hernia surgery. When the line was Zucker-Crosby-Sheary, it was Zucker and Sheary carrying the load on that line and Crosby generally dragging it down. He was really laboring before the shutdown.

I don't think people can judge a player or line combination based solely on the analytics. Zucker and Crosby looked extremely good together and Zucker was very productive in the spot. I'd be willing to bet any bad analytics for that line were due to Crosby's post-injury struggles.

Nobody said that, because I was the one who cited the analytics.

The narrative says Zucker and Sid were great together. I think the eye test-- at least from my perspective-- supported that. BUT, when I saw the analytics, it's interesting that Zucker-Sid-Simon was the only BAD line showing. Makes me pause and wonder if I wasn't seeing it right. That's it. No more than that.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

So... what you guys are saying is that Crosby should have BOTH Zucker and Jake, right?

Who cares about Malkin? He's gettin' blamed for any of the bad shit, regardless.

 

[KIRK]

It didn't have enough minutes at ES to qualify for the chart.

I checked the actual ES production. For Sid and Zucker, it was pretty much the same in their 7 games together without Sheary and it was in their 8 games with Sheary.

No clue how the possession numbers compared.

 

[KIRK]

So... what you guys are saying is that Crosby should have BOTH Zucker and Jake, right?

Who cares about Malkin? He's gettin' blamed for any of the bad shit, regardless.

As far as I know, only one person here suggested that.

 

[Peat]

So... what you guys are saying is that Crosby should have BOTH Zucker and Jake, right?

Who cares about Malkin? He's gettin' blamed for any of the bad shit, regardless.

I'm saying Crosby should have Zucker, Jake, AND Malkin, and only one dman.