Series Talk: Pens vs Habs Round 1 Best of Five - Episode 3: Déguédine!

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Peat

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I'm curious to see if the Penguins ever give Lafferty a look higher up in the lineup, specifically on Crosby's RW. He had very similar AHL numbers in his full seasons to Simon (49 points in 70 games for Lafferty, 48 games in 68 games and 46 points in 70 games for Simon), so I don't know why Simon would be okay there but Lafferty wouldn't.

You can let Lafferty, Simon, Poulin and maybe Rodrigues battle it out for Crosby's RW spot next year and just run with the hot hand.

Because Simon's game is freakishly well adapted to playing with Crosby and Lafferty's probably isn't. I'm not saying don't do it, hell I imagine they will and I'm curious as to what happens, but they do play pretty different games and that's more important than the numbers. Right now Lafferty looks like a McCann without the shot or early Rust to me - straight line, taking what's in front of them, impatient - and they've been pretty inconsistent fits with Crosby.
 
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Dipsy Doodle

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After second period...

I don't hate Marleau-McCann-Lafferty. But I don't love it. It does good stuff, but mostly off broken play. There's no particular sense of identity or a driver. Looking for some chemistry between Marleau and McCann to develop, a sense of role sharing. If it doesn't, then Sheary and Horny getting swapped would probably be good even if you have no worries about Sheary on Sid's line.

Part of the problem is that there's no distributor on that line. McCann's a shooting center and Marleau's a shooting winger, so unless there's a guy who can make plays on RW, they're kind of rudderless.

Simon might make more sense there.

I think that regardless of whether you believe the rumours - and I find them plausible, multiple NHL teams interested in doing something stupid with veteran dman is very plausible, but there we go - equating the level of interest in a 32 year old JJ in a time of assumed big cap growth with the level of interest in a 34 year old JJ in a time of flat cap is probably not going to bear out. Sooner or later the "they can never move that" crew will be proven right and this one looks as 'promising' a prospect as we've seen to be that time.

Anyone's movable. But JR has to be willing to bite the bullet that JJ's a significant negative value asset, yet he still believes he's useful.
 
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Peat

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Part of the problem is that there's no distributor on that line. McCann's a shooting center and Marleau's a shooting winger, so unless there's a guy who can make plays on RW, they're kind of rudderless.

Simon might make more sense there.

Well yeah. One of McCann and Marleau has to change their game a little. That or swap RWs and trust Sheary to be that guy.
Anyone's movable. But JR has to be willing to bite the bullet that JJ's a significant negative value asset, yet he still believes he's useful.

I'll rephrase that to "they can never move that without a sweetener so unpalatable that nobody wants them to do that" then ;) Which honestly might be JJ. The UFA class is about to get stiffed on contracts leading to bargains galore and some teams will be offloading some pretty good players; the price for teams to ignore those and take the likes of JJ is going up.

I mean, what's the price point at which you're no longer willing to spend to move JJ, and how unlikely is it you think we won't reach it? You willing to trade Poulin?
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Well yeah. One of McCann and Marleau has to change their game a little. That or swap RWs and trust Sheary to be that guy.

I can't see them changing their games too much in time for these playoffs. It'll probably be a personnel thing, at least in the short term.

I'll rephrase that to "they can never move that without a sweetener so unpalatable that nobody wants them to do that" then ;) Which honestly might be JJ. The UFA class is about to get stiffed on contracts leading to bargains galore and some teams will be offloading some pretty good players; the price for teams to ignore those and take the likes of JJ is going up.

I mean, what's the price point at which you're no longer willing to spend to move JJ, and how unlikely is it you think we won't reach it? You willing to trade Poulin?

Poulin sounds like he'll be ready to contribute soon, so he'd be an absolute last resort.

But JJ drags the team down every time he hits the ice, and Sullivan has shown no signs of being willing to bury him. JJ needs to go. If we're not in the Lafreniere sweepstakes this year, I'd trade our next 1st rounder to get rid of JJ if it came right down to it.

These next few years are too valuable to have one atrocious defenseman that the coach can't bring himself to shelve screwing them up.
 

Empoleon8771

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Because Simon's game is freakishly well adapted to playing with Crosby and Lafferty's probably isn't. I'm not saying don't do it, hell I imagine they will and I'm curious as to what happens, but they do play pretty different games and that's more important than the numbers. Right now Lafferty looks like a McCann without the shot or early Rust to me - straight line, taking what's in front of them, impatient - and they've been pretty inconsistent fits with Crosby.

More of those guys have been able to fit with Crosby than not, though. Dupuis, Stempniak, Kunitz and Gibbons are just a few examples of guys who fit that and meshed with Crosby. People here didn't like Rust with Crosby, but Crosby and the team seemed to like it.

As a matter of fact, I really can't think of many straight line players that didn't mesh with Crosby. I think McCann may be the only one, and that was partially due to Guentzel having to slide to RW to allow McCann to play LW.
 

Peat

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I can't see them changing their games too much in time for these playoffs. It'll probably be a personnel thing, at least in the short term.

Probably right.

Poulin sounds like he'll be ready to contribute soon, so he'd be an absolute last resort.

But JJ drags the team down every time he hits the ice, and Sullivan has shown no signs of being willing to bury him. JJ needs to go. If we're not in the Lafreniere sweepstakes this year, I'd trade our next 1st rounder to get rid of JJ if it came right down to it.

These next few years are too valuable to have one atrocious defenseman that the coach can't bring himself to shelve screwing them up.

I can't find a comparable cap dump in order to work out what it should cost but a 1st feels like it would be very cheap. There's not many guys who get cap dumped with so many years left. I feel like the closest comparable would be Bickell, only for 3 years rather than 1 so make it worse. Maybe we'll be lucky and find someone who really really rates JJ.

If we don't, we're probably hitting the cost point where a buyout is preferable aka to all practical extents and purposes, unmovable.

More of those guys have been able to fit with Crosby than not, though. Dupuis, Stempniak, Kunitz and Gibbons are just a few examples of guys who fit that and meshed with Crosby. People here didn't like Rust with Crosby, but Crosby and the team seemed to like it.

Those guys were before my time other than Kunitz, and I saw Kunitz making (or at least trying) to make more plays than early Rust or McCann. His hands might have been shot but he had some vision.

Not that early Rust or McCann never worked with them and the team never liked them - you're right there - there's a reason I said inconsistent, rather than bad. I imagine Crosby will like playing with Lafferty. That said - he prefers Simon, and the results (at least with McCann) says he's right to and should probably play with that sort of blinders player less.
 
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Speaking Moistly

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My guess is some team next year picks him up cheap and puts them next to an Ian Cole type on their bottom pairing (i.e. defensively sound but with an outlet pass) and laughs at our struggles with him as he puts up a good season.

And then a year of this place going

We could have had POJ-Schultz
It would be a sad pairing on the boards
It wouldn’t have mattered
It would have hurt POJ
And on and on.
 
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OtherThingsILike

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Because Simon's game is freakishly well adapted to playing with Crosby and Lafferty's probably isn't. I'm not saying don't do it, hell I imagine they will and I'm curious as to what happens, but they do play pretty different games and that's more important than the numbers. Right now Lafferty looks like a McCann without the shot or early Rust to me - straight line, taking what's in front of them, impatient - and they've been pretty inconsistent fits with Crosby.
I was also thinking that Lafferty reminded me of Rust (before this season). Both of them made it to the NHL primarily through working harder than everyone else.
 

Andy99

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Basically, McCann can be a center when playing defense but when in the offensive zone, Marleau has much better offensive hockey sense and is a better distributor/play maker....they should switch off responsibilities in the O zone, so McCann can be wing and take more shots...having never played hockey, I don’t know if this is feasible but that would take advantage of what they do best and should help that line
 

CheckingLineCenter

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I can't find a comparable cap dump in order to work out what it should cost but a 1st feels like it would be very cheap. There's not many guys who get cap dumped with so many years left. I feel like the closest comparable would be Bickell, only for 3 years rather than 1 so make it worse. Maybe we'll be lucky and find someone who really really rates JJ.

If we don't, we're probably hitting the cost point where a buyout is preferable aka to all practical extents and purposes, unmovable.

Was any chance of a “get out of free jail card” via compliance buyout (b/c cap isn’t rising) killed with new CBA or is that still a possibility?
 

pistolpete11

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I can't find a comparable cap dump in order to work out what it should cost but a 1st feels like it would be very cheap.
Wasn't the comparable people were using earlier this year Toronto trading a 1st to have Carolina buy Marleau out?

It's not a direct comparison since they have different cap hits, different term, and Marleau made it clear that he had no intention on playing with Carolina, but I think it's in the ballpark. And who knows, some shitty team might see some value in JMFJ even if it's only as a warm body.
 

Peat

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Was any chance of a “get out of free jail card” via compliance buyout (b/c cap isn’t rising) killed with new CBA or is that still a possibility?

Deader than a mouse in a cat sanctuary.

Wasn't the comparable people were using earlier this year Toronto trading a 1st to have Carolina buy Marleau out?

It's not a direct comparison since they have different cap hits, different term, and Marleau made it clear that he had no intention on playing with Carolina, but I think it's in the ballpark. And who knows, some shitty team might see some value in JMFJ even if it's only as a warm body.

I guess you could use it as a comparable but it's tricky because of the term. Marleau's buyout was 6.25m, but it's one year only. JJ will cost a team 3.25m, or 2.25m if they want to bury him, for three years - or 7m spread over the next 6. There's also an extra million and a half in cash.

I guess maybe you could maybe trade him to a team who'd just buy him out for a 1st (plus whatever the extra is for cap crunch time) if you find a team that doesn't think they'll particularly need all their cap space for the next six years? It's only really bad - 1.9m - in Year 3, rest is near or under a million. Although I'm not sure how many owners are lining up to say "Please, go ahead and spend 5.5m on a 1st, we're making so much money right now after all" either.
 
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pistolpete11

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I guess you could use it as a comparable but it's tricky because of the term. Marleau's buyout was 6.25m, but it's one year only. JJ will cost a team 3.25m, or 2.25m if they want to bury him, for three years - or 7m spread over the next 6. There's also an extra million and a half in cash.

I guess maybe you could maybe trade him to a team who'd just buy him out for a 1st (plus whatever the extra is for cap crunch time) if you find a team that doesn't think they'll particularly need all their cap space for the next six years? It's only really bad - 1.9m - in Year 3, rest is near or under a million. Although I'm not sure how many owners are lining up to say "Please, go ahead and spend 5.5m on a 1st, we're making so much money right now after all" either.
I don't know that a team would necessarily buy him out or bury him right away.

If you take Detroit for example, they suck. They are going to suck again next year and probably a few more after that. They could just suffer through those years with JMFJ. They need warm bodies on defense anyway. They have a bunch of potential money coming off the books this year. So to spend $3.whatever for a couple seasons to fill some space, eat some minutes, and to get a 1st round pick would make some sense for them IMO.
 
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Peat

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I don't know that a team would necessarily buy him out or bury him right away.

If you take Detroit for example, they suck. They are going to suck again next year and probably a few more after that. They could just suffer through those years with JMFJ. They need warm bodies on defense anyway. They have a bunch of potential money coming off the books this year. So to spend $3.whatever for a couple seasons to fill some space, eat some minutes, and to get a 1st round pick would make some sense for them IMO.

That is the 3.25m dollar question.

I don't think it's impossible someone would think along those lines.

But it's also possible Detroit decide they'd rather sign Schultz for roughly that money for free, or take Brendan Smith from NYR for a decent (if lesser consideration) and then be able to use the cap space again in a year, or... well, you get the idea.

If Detroit think JJ would be a great locker room presence while getting their butts handed to them or that he's not just terrible, he's really bad, then sure, we're in business (assuming Rutherford recognizes we need to be). If not - then we're back to unmovable.
 
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ColePens

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With the pandemic and it being a risk to play at all, I do want to dial back some of the "jokes" about the Pens health. Nothing pandemic related unless you have sources saying it is. No joking about death. It's not the time to do so.
 

pistolpete11

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That is the 3.25m dollar question.

I don't think it's impossible someone would think along those lines.

But it's also possible Detroit decide they'd rather sign Schultz for roughly that money for free, or take Brendan Smith from NYR for a decent (if lesser consideration) and then be able to use the cap space again in a year, or... well, you get the idea.

If Detroit think JJ would be a great locker room presence while getting their butts handed to them or that he's not just terrible, he's really bad, then sure, we're in business (assuming Rutherford recognizes we need to be). If not - then we're back to unmovable.
Signing Schultz or another FA wouldn't give them that extra asset, though. I don't put it past them to do it. I mean they've tried it with Mike Green, Daley, Nielson, etc., but it's not helped them get out of their current position. JMFJ certainly wouldn't either, but the extra asset would be a small step in the right direction.

But it's probably not worth discussing anyway. I think JR is willing to get rid of JMFJ, but I don't think he'd be willing to use a 1st to do it.
 

Peat

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Signing Schultz or another FA wouldn't give them that extra asset, though. I don't put it past them to do it. I mean they've tried it with Mike Green, Daley, Nielson, etc., but it's not helped them get out of their current position. JMFJ certainly wouldn't either, but the extra asset would be a small step in the right direction.

But it's probably not worth discussing anyway. I think JR is willing to get rid of JMFJ, but I don't think he'd be willing to use a 1st to do it.

Does it they flip Schultz or whoever at the deadline.

But in any case, we will see. I don't think there's anything definite about what will happen with JJ, but there's some pretty nasty worst case scenarios, like having to keep him.
 

KIRK

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Hey @KIRK - do you have any thoughts on JJ’s pairing playing extensively behind Malkin and whether that should carry over?

I have thoughts on both that and the plight of the Uyghur people, but I won't share them any further here.
 
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