Confirmed with Link: Pens trade 1st (No. 31) + Oskar Sundqvist for Ryan Reaves and Blues 2nd (No. 51)

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EpiPen

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Jun 6, 2016
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Everyone keeps posting about the playoffs. This trade was made so the stars dont take as much abuse during the regular season and have a better chance of making it to the playoffs injury free. Will it work? Not sure, but it doesn't hurt to try and help the guys out with a little extra protection.
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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I'm not crazy about the move, but if he takes Wilson off the ice for 5 minutes at a time, or removes Dubinsky for 5 minutes, that's good for me. The problem is, he's a regular season player only. Ideally I would have wanted a 6D like Englland for this role, but whatever. JR and Sully must have thought it was really necessary.

Reaves is basically the 4th line version of Engelland with better mobility. :laugh:
 

Zero Pucks

Size matters
May 17, 2009
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It does matter if it is 31. It changes the value. GMs could care less about the round. They care about the number of the pick and the drop off points. There was a big drop off around 20-25. That makes the 31st overall pick less valuable than a random 1st round pick let's say in 2018.

So do you think the 31st and 32nd picks have a huge difference in value? They have no difference. Also, to you Hainsey point, trading at the deadline is different than trading in the summer. Values go way up at the deadline.

Yeah. It's not like we decided to make the trade while Yamamoto or Vesalainen were still on the board. If we had, I'd be a little upset. The fact that no one is complaining about not taking Player X or whoever just shows what a huge drop off there was. Everyone is complaining about not taking pick 31 because it was pick 31.
 

Winger for Hire

Praise Beebo
Dec 9, 2013
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I'm not a huge Reaves fan and I see what GMJR wants to do and will withhold freaking out totally until I see more of the offseason.

I just really hate dropping 20 spots early in the draft to acquire a 4th line winger that is the antithesis of the past 2 season's successes.
 

Terrapin

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
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still dont like this deal, sure our stars get abused but if the league actually did its job and cared for player safety this wouldnt be necessary

We have proven that you dont need this mould of player to win 1 cup let alone back to back cups

We proved this year we don't need Letang on D to win a Cup. We should probably ditch him.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Sep 5, 2008
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It does matter if it is 31. It changes the value. GMs could care less about the round. They care about the number of the pick and the drop off points. There was a big drop off around 20-25. That makes the 31st overall pick less valuable than a random 1st round pick let's say in 2018.

So do you think the 31st and 32nd picks have a huge difference in value? They have no difference. Also, to you Hainsey point, trading at the deadline is different than trading in the summer. Values go way up at the deadline.

And I am not saying the 31st pick is not in the first round. I am saying that a lot of people are *****ing because we traded a first for Reaves. That is such a disingenuous statement. Leaving out the second and the fact that we had the last pick in the first is hyperbole. Plain and simple.

Hyperbole and disingenuous arguments? You're saying the 31st is basically no different than the 51st. :laugh:

No idea where Hainsey is coming from.

Sure, the picks that are one pick apart don't have a big difference in value when it's 31 v 32, but we dropped *twenty* picks. How do you begin to rationalize that as being a non-issue, while dismissing the 31st pick as essentially worthless but somehow the 51st is fine because it's in the same round? :laugh:

I dunno man. Hope Reaves is awesome. We paid a stupid price for a 4th liner.
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
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I'm not a huge Reaves fan and I see what GMJR wants to do and will withhold freaking out totally until I see more of the offseason.

I just really hate dropping 20 spots early in the draft to acquire a 4th line winger that is the antithesis of the past 2 season's successes.

I think there's always room for a mix of physical toughness and skill in the lineup. Go watch some St. Louis games and watch Reaves on the forecheck- he's surprisingly good about dumping the puck in and causing havoc immediately behind the opponent's net during the puck retrieval. Now think about having the Pens' 4th line be able to take advantage of that chaos and finish.

That's what I think is more of the thinking than the pugilism.
 

spcastlemagic

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Jul 3, 2006
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I don't see how Reeves is the antithesis of our success. How big of a factor was us being able to get defense to bail on plays and want nothing to do with the puck once we got them turned around, particularly in the Nashville series? Reeves brings that element in a big way.
 

AjaxTelamon

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Jul 8, 2011
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If we got an upgraded version of Rowney who can play fast and hard while being good on the forecheck/cycle and occasionally stepping in when other teams take liberties I like this move.

If he's going to go out of his way to hit guys just to do it and run around looking to start ****, I think this is a bad move.

I expect that the plan is the former. If he can effectively do that, I'll be thrilled with the guy. May not love the cost, but I'd love him. I don't expect him to solve our injury issues, but I think a guy like him can be effective. But we also need to give him some talent to play with. He can't be lined up with Rowney and kunitz. He needs to be creating space for a line combo that can score. Wilson is solid for that imo, or Archie. But now we need a 4c for sure.

As for between the whistle stuff, I want him to buy in to what Sully is preaching. And I don't see why he wouldn't. Everyone else has. I don't want him being clown all game long. If something egregious happens, step in. Otherwise, just take a number and skate away so he can find them during play.

If we can assume he will not just be running around, and will be asked to just play hockey here (until things go sideways), then I'm warming up to this. There are definitely things to like from a statistical perspective. He got a lot of defensive responsibility last year, he scored at a respectable G/60 and P/60, and made the (bad) players he played with better. Even though he started a lot in the D zone, he still had a 55% GF%, so he takes play the other way, with his speed being a big part of that.

The guy can play hockey at this point in his career. He makes players better, and he's a hard worker and excellent forechecker. I think he absolutely can play our style, and won't look awful taking a few shifts with our big guns if needed.

A guy like Tom Wilson got easier assignments, and played with very skilled players a lot of the time, and made them worse. I'm not sure that comparison is fair to Reaves.

Edit, interesting article from St. Louis about how he's changed as a player:

http://bleedinblue.com/2017/05/21/st-louis-blues-2016-17-final-grades-ryan-reaves/
 
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thecore

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Jul 2, 2008
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What would it normally cost to move from pick 51 to 31? A late second or early third maybe? I mean, we definitely overpaid with also including Sundquist, but depending on who we take at 51, the quality may not be all that different in this draft. Of course if Kostin pans out we look really bad.
 

froods

I blame Paul Martin and Jack Johnson
Aug 28, 2009
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People that don't like this trade.

1. Statement - He is a goon.
Reality - he can play hockey regardless of his fighting ability

2. Statement - We gave up a first rounder for him.
Reality - We dropped 20 spots in a draft where the talent is somewhat equal for the next 30 picks.

3. Statement - We lost our center depth and have nobody if Sid or Geno goes down.
Reality - Oscar Sundqvist was never going to help us in that area. If GMJR doesn't resign Bones and probably even bring in another guy, we were screwed regardless of this deal. Sundqvist was never anything better than a 4th line center, if that.

4. Statement - this trade changes our identity.
Reality - Reaves can skate, control the puck, and is a good locker room guy. It doesn't change our identity at all.
 

Winger for Hire

Praise Beebo
Dec 9, 2013
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I think there's always room for a mix of physical toughness and skill in the lineup. Go watch some St. Louis games and watch Reaves on the forecheck- he's surprisingly good about dumping the puck in and causing havoc immediately behind the opponent's net during the puck retrieval. Now think about having the Pens' 4th line be able to take advantage of that chaos and finish.

That's what I think is more of the thinking than the pugilism.

That's fair and some good points. If that is indeed what he can, and does, bring. Coolio. I guess with that skillset, pairing him with the right linemates could make the 4th line a real ***** to matchup a skilled line against, not scoring wise, but energy and pressure wise.

I haven't seen Reaves much in action, so I was going by a quick glance at his H-R.com page and that fact he's always picked and dropped in my fantasy leagues for his PIMs.
 

froods

I blame Paul Martin and Jack Johnson
Aug 28, 2009
4,819
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Fort Erie, ON
Hyperbole and disingenuous arguments? You're saying the 31st is basically no different than the 51st. :laugh:

No idea where Hainsey is coming from.

Sure, the picks that are one pick apart don't have a big difference in value when it's 31 v 32, but we dropped *twenty* picks. How do you begin to rationalize that as being a non-issue, while dismissing the 31st pick as essentially worthless but somehow the 51st is fine because it's in the same round? :laugh:

I dunno man. Hope Reaves is awesome. We paid a stupid price for a 4th liner.

No, no, no. I am not saying that 31 and 51 are the same. I believe you were overstating the value of our "first round pick". Obviously 51 is a less valuable asset, but not even close to what people are claiming.
 

Killahpunk

Legend
Jun 29, 2009
12,223
1,105
Eastern Canada
I like this move but i am an old school guy who loves rough abrasive hockey like in the 80s and 90s when each team has multiple guys who could enforce. Now Malkin doesn't half to be that guy. Not to mention Reaves can actually skate and play.
 

Paulie Gualtieri

R.I.P. Tony Sirico
May 18, 2016
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What would it normally cost to move from pick 51 to 31? A late second or early third maybe? I mean, we definitely overpaid with also including Sundquist, but depending on who we take at 51, the quality may not be all that different in this draft. Of course if Kostin pans out we look really bad.

If we want another Sundqvist we can just pick one up off waivers sooner or later, big deal. However I am slightly salty that they got Kostin, but who knows, we might not have been interested in him.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
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The price still isn't really that bad, Coach, given how much people still put a premium on physicality.

I mean, Calgary signed Engelland to a stupid contract because of his physicality. Johnny Hockey still gets slashed 60 times a a game.

GMs do a lot of stupid things. Like sign Bolland to a ridiculous contract. Or give a nearly 31yr old Oshie an 8-year deal. Or trade a 75-80pt guy in Panarin for a 50pt guy in Saad. :laugh:

Regardless of whether or not Reaves is a good 4th liner, or whether or not he's simply a goon who isn't as bad at hockey as other goons, we still gave up a pretty significant return for a guy who averages around 10pts a season and 8 minutes of ice time. That doesn't seem like the price you pay for someone like that.
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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If we want another Sundqvist we can just pick one up off waivers sooner or later, big deal. However I am slightly salty that they got Kostin, but who knows, we might not have been interested in him.

Kostin's injuries kind of worry me, given our track record. He'd probably break both his arms trying to sign a Pens' contract. :laugh:
 

Terrapin

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
9,361
1,382
People that don't like this trade.

1. Statement - He is a goon.
Reality - he can play hockey regardless of his fighting ability

2. Statement - We gave up a first rounder for him.
Reality - We dropped 20 spots in a draft where the talent is somewhat equal for the next 30 picks.

3. Statement - We lost our center depth and have not body if Sid or Geno goes down.
Reality - Oscar Sundqvist was never going to help us in that area. If GMJR doesn't resign Bones and probably even bring in another guy, we were screwed regardless of this deal. Sundqvist was never anything better than a 4th line center, if that.

4. Statement - this trade changes out identity.
Reality - Reaves can skate, control the puck, and is a good locker room guy. It doesn't change our identity at all.

:handclap:

People so severely overrate young players around here. We've seen it with Caputi, Tangradi, Bennett, Jeffrey, etc, etc. At best, and I mean if all the stars align, Sundqvist becomes an average 3rd line center. Much more likely is he's an average 4th line center, that never makes an impact anywhere.

The difference in picks isn't much.

The only issue I have with this is, a 1st and Sundqvist could have landed us Shattenkirk. Not that it mattered, and who knows if we could resign him, but as far as 'overpayment', this is where i see that point.

But again, people here said they'd welcome toughness if the guy can take a regular shift. Well here he is, and those same people are having a meltdown about it.
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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But again, people here said they'd welcome toughness if the guy can take a regular shift. Well here he is, and those same people are having a meltdown about it.

I mean, I'm always a "toughness is good, but IF they can play" kinda guy. But yeah, this is really striking thing that people wanted this for years and then when they get it, it's suddenly too much? :help:
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
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No, no, no. I am not saying that 31 and 51 are the same. I believe you were overstating the value of our "first round pick". Obviously 51 is a less valuable asset, but not even close to what people are claiming.

Even if talent is relatively close between the 31st and 51st pick, you're still removing 20 potential guys from the pool. That's significant.

I don't know, man. :laugh: I'm not like, blinding rage, seeing red livid about the trade, but we'd better not see Sid or Geno catch any **** anymore like people seem to (erroneously, imo) think Reaves will make sure of. Again, even if he's a solid to good 4th liner, he plays 8 minutes a night and averages 10pts a season. A guy like that isn't worth skipping out on 20 picks and tossing in the towel on a kid that, at worst, could fill in at 4C for a bit during an injury.
 
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