Post-Game Talk: Pens/Canes plus/minus 10.28.2013

[MrBurghundy]

Hate Bylsma but also this roster is far from perfect from a Cup perspective, at least this year. Even when healthy I would say we're just barely good enough to be considered a legit contender, then you look at the Bruins, Hawks, and even the Kings and you see that we seriously lack some of the things they have. Depth and all-around play rule in this day and age IMO, and we don't have it.

Nah, what really wins the day is more bottom-6 grinders with little offensive skill. That, and grit with a little helping of veteran leadership.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Don't forget tons of defensemen with nowhere to play.

But yeah... I don't often agree with TTEoT... but he's spot on about this. There's actually a lot to like about Disco, despite the griping. And I truly have seen some (slow) improvement in areas of weakness. An outside voice behind the bench likely helps with that.

But waiting around for the coaching staff to figure things out for season after season just seems monumentally stupid.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Hate Bylsma but also this roster is far from perfect from a Cup perspective, at least this year. Even when healthy I would say we're just barely good enough to be considered a legit contender, then you look at the Bruins, Hawks, and even the Kings and you see that we seriously lack some of the things they have. Depth and all-around play rule in this day and age IMO, and we don't have it.

While healthy, I think our lineup could be quite good if Bylsma decided to be less Bylsma-ish. A simple swap of Bennett and Dupuis alone does wonders.

 

[wgknestrick]

I'm sure it was a great moment for Megna... but, .

It makes how long it took Glass to score a goal as a Pen even funnier...

Is that rock to bash over Bylsma's head?

"I present to you the brain of Bylsma"

"Here, go throw this through Talbot's window"

 

[IcedCapp]

Nah, what really wins the day is more bottom-6 grinders with little offensive skill. That, and grit with a little helping of veteran leadership.

this is what the Dupuis lovers don't get.

If Kunitz and Dupuis are going to be 50% of your top-6 wingers, you cannot be a two line team. The Penguins have failed to build either a dominant top-6 or a team 3-4 lines deep.

There is no other Cup contender who would be playing Dupuis in their top-6. AND all of them have better 3rd and 4th lines than the Penguins have. Even if healthy. This entire roster is mangled, and it starts at the top (of the lines)

 

[turd]

1. LOL @ people who are surprised at J Staal's complete lack of offensive ability. Still pains me to this day to remember how many people here I had to fight here to try to get it through their heads that when it comes to offense...he. just. does. not. have. it. Then I had to have the same arguments with Tangradi. Oh well...

That's what happens when knuckleheads like McGuire and Steiggy keep pumping up the guy when he had done little to deserve it. He's a mediocre hockey player. He's decent defensively and inept offensively. Sometimes, though, people are unable to form their own opinions, so they take it from the talking mouths. Staal has always been an extremely disappointing player and overrated defensively. I think last year proved that Cooke had much more to do with the "greatest third line in hockey's" success than Staal did. And really, Kennedy probably wasn't too far behind either.

But hey, he scored that SHG in the SCF that "won us the Cup!"

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Th

this is what the Dupuis lovers don't get.

If Kunitz and Dupuis are going to be 50% of your top-6 wingers, you cannot be a two line team. The Penguins have failed to build either a dominant top-6 or a team 3-4 lines deep.

There is no other Cup contender who would be playing Dupuis in their top-6. AND all of them have better 3rd and 4th lines than the Penguins have. Even if healthy. This entire roster is mangled, and it starts at the top (of the lines)

This is difficult to argue with. That's why it's imperative that we let our young D play and develop into assets we can use, and use them both as nhl talent in our lineup and to get the forwards we need to either be a dominant 2 line team or a deep scoring team. One or two forwards can do this, you slot even a Glencross with Crosby and all of a sudden your 3rd line is BB/Sutter/Dupuis. Suddenly things look a lot better.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Perhaps. Or it could be the coaching equivalent of a dry drunk.

That he kept BB and Després up after the deadline doesn't necessarily mean a change in outlook, considering the roster limit no longer applies at that point. And it's not like they saw a lot of ice time, either.

Megna worked his ass off, and deserved the minutes he got. But would he have gotten them if Kobasew hadn't left the game because of injury?

And then there is the mystery of Dustin Jeffrey. Why are we calling people up instead of playing him? If he was injured, you'd think that they'd put him on IR to squeeze out those extra pennies of cap relief. And a potential trade wouldn't keep him out of the line up for this long.

Määttä, yes. That was surprising. And even more surprising that they're bearing with the odd mistakes and keeping him in the lineup with more or less consistent minutes. So, I'll give you that one.

It would make things a lot easier if Bylsma shows he can learn from his mistakes. That he can adapt and grow and become a better coach. There have been random flashes here and there of change, but those seem to be quickly followed by regression ... one step forward and two steps back. I've been disappointed too many times to get my hopes up a this point.

What would it take to convince me? Seeing guys actually earn their spot. If one of the kids outplays one of the vets, then the rookie should have it. So, I guess at this point, as far as this topic goes, there is room for some very cautious optimism.

I meant DB kept up Despres at the start of last season and BB a few weeks later. He could of had Despres sent back and never called up BB and kept him up. Then he kept Maatta this season, which was the biggest shocker of all.

I know there are staunch DB haters and nothing will change their mind. I'm personally trying to keep an open mind both ways.

If he keeps feeding Megna playing time, that will be a huge step, because he is going to do some dumb **** as his confidence grows and if DB let's him play through that I'll be shocked.

 

[66-30-33]

1. LOL @ people who are surprised at J Staal's complete lack of offensive ability. Still pains me to this day to remember how many people here I had to fight here to try to get it through their heads that when it comes to offense...he. just. does. not. have. it. Then I had to have the same arguments with Tangradi. Oh well...

2. Megna was the man tonight! Nice to see a little jumpy youth instead of the slow and steady vets. Would totally be okay with:

KCD
Joks-Malkin-Megna

as the top 6 next game. Although in a perfect world I would go with:

Megna-Crosby-Dupuis
Kunitz-Malkin-Jokinen

I'd still like him here if he forgot all about offense and mainly worried about his D. That guy was a beast at D and the PK. Not at 6M though....the guy needs to go back to what worked for him and forget about being a scoring player but i guess at 6M a year you can't really do that. Ohwell, NOT OUR PROBLEM! I'd still pick Staal if we redrafted because that guy was a beast defensivly, although Toews would have easily been a much better pick because he has more offense then Staal EASILY! and better defensivly but at a higher cost untill later when we knew he was gonzo. We won the cup with Staal, who knows if we would have with anyone else. You can easily say we could, but nobody knows so i prefer facts instead of assumptions.

 

[Sivek]

First time Megna tries to dangle someone or leaves a drop pass to an empty patch of ice (it'll happen, probably next game) and it leads to an odd-man rush, he'll skate off the ice and start hitching his way to WBS. Kind of like a dog whimpering in the corner when it knows it made a mistake.

This is what I've become. An empty shell. A joyless existence. I'm a broken man. I'll never feel happiness again. Look at me and despair HFBoards.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

This is what I've become. An empty shell. A joyless existence. I'm a broken man. I'll never feel happiness again. Look at me and despair HFBoards.

I'm dying laughing at this. I feel your pain. We got it bad.

 

[DegenX]

I meant DB kept up Despres at the start of last season and BB a few weeks later. He could of had Despres sent back and never called up BB and kept him up. Then he kept Maatta this season, which was the biggest shocker of all.

I know there are staunch DB haters and nothing will change their mind. I'm personally trying to keep an open mind both ways.

If he keeps feeding Megna playing time, that will be a huge step, because he is going to do some dumb **** as his confidence grows and if DB let's him play through that I'll be shocked.

Ah ... gotcha. Well, like I said, so far HCDB has shown that there is reason to be cautiously optimistic in regards to playing the rookies. Only time will tell. But, that still leaves the other topics like the line combos, in-game adjustments, and system issues.
.
One thing that became apparent from the continual debates that carried over from last season into this one is that every coach has his issues. For every candidate that was suggested there would be any number of posters pointing out his flaws. Most of us were optimistic about the J. Martin hiring. Not only for the experience he'd bring, but that he could step in if GMRS did decide to drop the axe on Bylsma & Co ... but there were (and are) a few who weren't so thrilled.

Maybe you have the right of it. As often as I rail against Bylsma and call for change, in the end, he's still the coach, and likely will be at least until after the Olympics, if not the entire season. I may not be over the moon at the prospect, but it is what it is ... better to look for positives than give myself a stroke screaming at my TV ... Ah, hell, who am I kidding ... I doubt I can maintain that Zen attitude through the first period of the next game What flavor of cardboard was it that you recommended?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Ah ... gotcha. Well, like I said, so far HCDB has shown that there is reason to be cautiously optimistic in regards to playing the rookies. Only time will tell. But, that still leaves the other topics like the line combos, in-game adjustments, and system issues.
.
One thing that became apparent from the continual debates that carried over from last season into this one is that every coach has his issues. For every candidate that was suggested there would be any number of posters pointing out his flaws. Most of us were optimistic about the J. Martin hiring. Not only for the experience he'd bring, but that he could step in if GMRS did decide to drop the axe on Bylsma & Co ... but there were (and are) a few who weren't so thrilled.

Maybe you have the right of it. As often as I rail against Bylsma and call for change, in the end, he's still the coach, and likely will be at least until after the Olympics, if not the entire season. I may not be over the moon at the prospect, but it is what it is ... better to look for positives than give myself a stroke screaming at my TV ... Ah, hell, who am I kidding ... I doubt I can maintain that Zen attitude through the first period of the next game

Yep, in the end he isn't going anywhere and Shero is going to keep focusing on blueliners and hoarding them. I accepted Shero's hoarding problem last summer and I'm slowly accepting DB isn't going anywhere. I don't feel good about DB, but he's the coach so I'm trying my best to support him and find any little positives I can.

What flavor of cardboard was it that you recommended?

The FedEx are easily the best, but if you can score some Mikes Hard Lemonade boxes at the liquor store, they go great with Dinosaur BBQ Slathering Sauce.

Just eat it slowly and if you start twitching, that's normal. It goes away after the first few bites.

 

[FDBluth]

That's what happens when knuckleheads like McGuire and Steiggy keep pumping up the guy when he had done little to deserve it. He's a mediocre hockey player. He's decent defensively and inept offensively. Sometimes, though, people are unable to form their own opinions, so they take it from the talking mouths. Staal has always been an extremely disappointing player and overrated defensively. I think last year proved that Cooke had much more to do with the "greatest third line in hockey's" success than Staal did. And really, Kennedy probably wasn't too far behind either.

But hey, he scored that SHG in the SCF that "won us the Cup!"

Drafting Staal was such a dumb, dumb move. I mean, the best he ever could have been was a third line center on this team. Why would anyone use a #2 pick to draft someone whose place on a team would never be anything more tha a seriously diminished role? It didn't and doesn't make sense.

Sid and Kessel could have been lighting up the league in a serious way for years and years now. It makes me a bit sad to think about it. Or Sid and Toews. Hell, Backstrom could have developed into a fantastic playmaking winger, too.

 

[JackFr]

Watching Bylsma handle this roster is like beating against a cement wall...

In a beautiful world we'll see this in the playoffs.

Bennett - Crosby - xxxxx
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Jokinen - Sutter - Dupuis
Kobasew - Vitale - Adams

Letang - Scuderi
Orpik - Martin
Maatta - Bortuzzo

Fleury
Vokoun

But obviously we won't.

 

[Shady Machine]

this is what the Dupuis lovers don't get.

If Kunitz and Dupuis are going to be 50% of your top-6 wingers, you cannot be a two line team. The Penguins have failed to build either a dominant top-6 or a team 3-4 lines deep.

There is no other Cup contender who would be playing Dupuis in their top-6. AND all of them have better 3rd and 4th lines than the Penguins have. Even if healthy. This entire roster is mangled, and it starts at the top (of the lines)

Here comes the "yeah but those other teams don't have Crosby and Malkin"

 

[Shady Machine]

I meant DB kept up Despres at the start of last season and BB a few weeks later. He could of had Despres sent back and never called up BB and kept him up. Then he kept Maatta this season, which was the biggest shocker of all.

I know there are staunch DB haters and nothing will change their mind. I'm personally trying to keep an open mind both ways.

If he keeps feeding Megna playing time, that will be a huge step, because he is going to do some dumb **** as his confidence grows and if DB let's him play through that I'll be shocked.

I appreciate your optimism. There is an equally reasonable pessimistic spin to each of those moves. Despres didn't get the playing time he should have in the NHL last year because of Mark Eaton and now he is in the AHL and still has "rookie" status around here because he wasn't played. Bennett was benched in the playoffs for Tanner Glass and co.

But yeah, there seems to be some progress. It just seems to be at the pace of a glacier.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Drafting Staal was such a dumb, dumb move. I mean, the best he ever could have been was a third line center on this team. Why would anyone use a #2 pick to draft someone whose place on a team would never be anything more tha a seriously diminished role? It didn't and doesn't make sense.

Sid and Kessel could have been lighting up the league in a serious way for years and years now. It makes me a bit sad to think about it. Or Sid and Toews. Hell, Backstrom could have developed into a fantastic playmaking winger, too.

To be honest it's pointless to think about anyways. How would we afford Crosby, Malkin, Neal, and Toews/Kessel/Backstrom if couldn't keep Staal?

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

this is what the Dupuis lovers don't get.

If Kunitz and Dupuis are going to be 50% of your top-6 wingers, you cannot be a two line team. The Penguins have failed to build either a dominant top-6 or a team 3-4 lines deep.

There is no other Cup contender who would be playing Dupuis in their top-6. AND all of them have better 3rd and 4th lines than the Penguins have. Even if healthy. This entire roster is mangled, and it starts at the top (of the lines)

It's the drafting. A couple of more Beau's and we'd be in pretty good shape, even at the expense of Despres who I honestly think has become overrated around here.

 

[ColePens]

It's the drafting. A couple of more Beau's and we'd be in pretty good shape, even at the expense of Despres who I honestly think has become overrated around here.

Disagree about Despres. You just don't see guys his size, willing to throw the body around, skating and passing the way he does. I understand the organization is not happy with him, but he's at a point of his career being challenged. He's NHL ready and driven to play in the NHL. Everything else seems boring to him. Not every hockey player dominates other leagues and moves up. Some are just built for the top and really don't care about the others.

I want to see this guy in the top 4 before calling him overrated.

 

[billybudd]

It's the drafting. A couple of more Beau's and we'd be in pretty good shape, even at the expense of Despres who I honestly think has become overrated around here.

Agreed. He's big and skates incredibly well for his size, but beyond that, people seem to want to go all Ostrich syndrome on him. Maybe if we pretend he doesn't make an AHL number of mental errors, he'll stop making them, in other words.

Not that Tangradi ever had his potential, but I see an alarming number of posts with similar reasoning that I saw to that guy.

"He show he belongs here?"
"No, but he needs a whole season of top ____ ice time in the NHL to do that."

That sort of thinking makes me uncomfortable.

Maata needed 3 preseason games to strongly suggest he was ready for the NHL...Bennett needed a whopping one regular season game, etc.

Meanwhile, Tangradi got his ice time and hit his ceiling as, arguably, the worst player on a pretty bad Winnipeg club.

 

[Shady Machine]

Disagree about Despres. You just don't see guys his size, willing to throw the body around, skating and passing the way he does. I understand the organization is not happy with him, but he's at a point of his career being challenged. He's NHL ready and driven to play in the NHL. Everything else seems boring to him. Not every hockey player dominates other leagues and moves up. Some are just built for the top and really don't care about the others.

I want to see this guy in the top 4 before calling him overrated.

I don't even believe the org isn't happy with him. That seems like it was invented by the media. I can't find a single credible quote to make me believe otherwise.

 

[Shady Machine]

Agreed. He's big and skates incredibly well for his size, but beyond that, people seem to want to go all Ostrich syndrome on him. Maybe if we pretend he doesn't make an AHL number of mental errors, he'll stop making them, in other words.

Not that Tangradi ever had his potential, but I see an alarming number of posts with similar reasoning that I saw to that guy.

"He show he belongs here?"
"No, but he needs a whole season of top ____ ice time in the NHL to do that."

That sort of thinking makes me uncomfortable.

Maata needed 3 preseason games to strongly suggest he was ready for the NHL...Bennett needed a whopping one regular season game, etc.

Meanwhile, Tangradi got his ice time and hit his ceiling as, arguably, the worst player on a pretty bad Winnipeg club.

Maatta is also going to be a really, really good hockey player. Comparing every young dman to Maatta isn't really fair (Of course I think Despres is going to be a solid top 4 dman as well). Also, Despres has done far more in his NHL career than Tangradi ever did. The comparison is really off.

 

[mpp9]

Disagree about Despres. You just don't see guys his size, willing to throw the body around, skating and passing the way he does. I understand the organization is not happy with him, but he's at a point of his career being challenged. He's NHL ready and driven to play in the NHL. Everything else seems boring to him. Not every hockey player dominates other leagues and moves up. Some are just built for the top and really don't care about the others.

I want to see this guy in the top 4 before calling him overrated.

I want to see him up here as well, but it's not like he's a much better player than Maatta at this point. He can't dog it in WBS b/c he thinks he's better than that at this point.

From what I understand, he's played pretty well so far this year, so maybe he'll earn the call up soon. Or Nisky will be moved.

 

[billybudd]

Maatta is also going to be a really, really good hockey player. Comparing every young dman to Maatta isn't really fair (Of course I think Despres is going to be a solid top 4 dman as well). Also, Despres has done far more in his NHL career than Tangradi ever did. The comparison is really off.

The comparison pertains to the reasoning behind giving him 20 minutes a night expressed on this board, not similarities between them.