Post-Game Talk: Pens 7, Ducks 4: So @ColePens Wrote, So It Came to Pass . . . Until Geno Defied The Sacred Scrolls

[LOGiK]

He’s an absolute game breaker. While there are players better than him he’s pretty high up there in players who can turn things around quickly on their own. He has his flaws and they get exposed sometimes but he’s a proven match winner. The right deal though if you can get it has to be looked at.

There in lies the dilemma. Even if it is a good deal, what if we ship him for a bust fit? I mean yeah he gets shipped before his contract expire and UFA hits, but until then... ehhh another year or two of Phil it is going to be.
I don't like the trade Phil talk and I demur.

 

[LOGiK]

I would be shocked if we can actually land the right deal for Kessel. It would have to be a star for star kind of deal imo. You simply don't win stars for parts deals in the short term. And we aren't making trades for the long term.

I have no like button, but I have to say yes to this post.

 

[William I NEGLE]

I'll bet he actually said "Sid is Captain."

Close. I speak fluent Geno. Actual quote was "This stoopid bullshit. Sid captain."

 

[Pancakes]

Yeah exactly why I dont think they trade Kessel right now. At least one more playoff run to see if we can win it all again with these stars together.

Lineup is pretty much set. We messed up last year at the deadline trading for Brassard( I dont blame JR, we alll thought it was a good move) so hopefully this year we make up for that.

And whether some like Pearson or not, I think he will be solid in the playoffs. Chipping in that goal here and there. Also has the experience....4g 8a during LA's cup run as a rookie.

Murray/DeSmith(if needed) should be solid..now just upgrade Brassard. Doesnt even need to be a center IMO. Could always put Sheahan back to 3C where he was gelling with Kessel before that deadline last year. And add another top winger for this team. We have center depth...so I wouldnt focus on us needing to get a Center back..just add another dangerous scorer to the line up...to go with what we have and make up for what Brassard has been lacking(supposed to be a 20+ goal scorer).

Kessel has just been so good since coming here. I wouldn't even think about trading him right now. It would be very hard to beat the value he brings for his cap hit. Actually, it'd be impossible I think.

To me, you only float the idea of moving Kessel if and only if the Pens start showing real signs of being in decline. Like if we're out of a playoff spot at the deadline next year, or miss entirely, then sure, you can do it. But as long as we look like a playoff team, I keep him.

 

[Pancakes]

Nailed it. You just know that if there was a problem, those two were at the root of it.

So cancerous. I never liked Orpik much. Sure "the shift" was cool, but apart from that he was just a mediocre defenseman who called out the team when they were doing poorly but never took ownership of his own poor play. And Adams was just a snake.

Also it cracks me up how Kessel never celebrates his goals. Acts like he's been there plenty of times....which he has.

 

[Turin]

I can never utterly decide how I feel about a Kessel trade. I don't think it's an automatically bad idea but it'd be easy to lose and really hurt the team. But get the right players in who really fit the team...

In any case, I'm enjoying the Phil show.

A guy like Stone, sure. Complimentary pieces? Nope, absolutely not.

 

[ColePens]

To my stat peeps - I do question the validity of high danger zone statistics.

It's one of my favorite things to at least glance at, but how accurate is it? There is no way someone is watching each game and calculating the actual chances for/against. That's the only way to do it accurately. And no... not every high danger area shot is the same. A shot in the slot that is limited to a backhander because of d-positioning is not the same as a side-to-side one timer. Are we taking defensive positioning into play? Are we taking shot tendencies into play? What if the goalie gives them no angle...?

Heck... a shot outside of the danger zone may be more dangerous than the one inside the danger zone depending on the play. So I just question it's full validity even though I do like glancing at it.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I can never utterly decide how I feel about a Kessel trade. I don't think it's an automatically bad idea but it'd be easy to lose and really hurt the team. But get the right players in who really fit the team...

In any case, I'm enjoying the Phil show.

I personally think anyone who thinks trading Kessel for a lesser player and a 1st is nuts. You simply don't trade away a point per game player for someone who'll get around 40 to 50 points (based on the names said people are throwing out there) and come away a better team.

Like I said prior, if someone a guy like Mark Stone could be his replacement, I'm on board. But names like Charlie Coyle and a 1st? Are you kidding me (not saying you mentioned him)?

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

I just like having a guy who can create offence on his own if Crosby and Malkin are being tightly checked. Kessel can (and has) changed a game with a single shot from outside the circles. It wasn't that long ago Crosby and Malkin were forced to carry guys who couldn't create space for them and if they were shut down, the Pens weren't scoring.

 

[ColePens]

I personally think anyone who thinks trading Kessel for a lesser player and a 1st is nuts. You simply don't trade away a point per game player for someone who'll get around 40 to 50 points (based on the names said people are throwing out there) and come away a better team.

Like I said prior, if someone a guy like Mark Stone could be his replacement, I'm on board. But names like Charlie Coyle and a 1st? Are you kidding me (not saying you mentioned him)?

I think Kessel/Letang are two players who are irreplaceable BUT you could at least make an argument for trading them for a different method (if it wasn't working).

Example
- Kessel: You cannot deny his production. It's elite. You could argue a player like Skinner is less of a ceiling but higher floor that may fit if a team has more Kessel-like players. If they wanted to invest in a Sprong-like player in the top 6, then yes an argument for Skinner over Kessel would at least be appropriate even though i'd argue against it myself.

- Letang: If you had Schultz and let's say Mike Green also on the team, you could argue maybe moving Letang for a less high of a ceiling but higher floor more steady #1. But it would have to come with years of failure trying to get a Cup with many examples of Letang's style of play not fitting the identity of the Pens.

Once again... not appropriate in our situation. Tanger was a HUGE part of 2 Cups and fits our identity better than probably any player on defense in the game. I'd argue against moving him, but if we were Tampa and we came up short every single time, then I'd feel the argument would at least be on the table.



So in reality we already know it works with Kessel/Letang. Stop wanting new toys. These guys fit our identity and have proven to be a huge reason why we win the Cup. I'm riding both contracts out and not even thinking twice about it.

 

[Ugene Magic]

 

[Peat]

I would be shocked if we can actually land the right deal for Kessel. It would have to be a star for star kind of deal imo. You simply don't win stars for parts deals in the short term. And we aren't making trades for the long term.

This isn't completely true. You can win starts for parts deals very quickly... but only if the star is not as vital as people thought and in making the deal, it lets you cater to the needs of your other stars and internal guys step up. Ref: Duchene, O'Reilly.

Is this applicable to Kessel? Mainly no. We don't have the internal pieces (Sprong not working out has put a dampener on this), he's not a dressing room problem or anything. And he's pretty important.

But there's a certain amount of yes in that Geno wanders the desert when it comes to linemates, either trying to make him and Kessel work (I'd say a quarter of the time its as good as it gets and the rest of the time its deeply flawed) or making do because we spent our stuff when it comes to star wingers there. This is amplified by the fact that Hornqvist is a death or glory fit with Geno as well. If you got a part that really fitted with Geno... I think you win the trade.

I think that's the only way the Kessel for parts trade works right now (unless you already got your replacement in free agency). Or Kessel for lesser player and 1st, as Sidney mentions. But it's in my mind.

edit: p.s. I have to disagree with ColePens about Kessel fitting with our identity. I think its quite conspicuous that he's really not a Sully type player. That he does such good work here is testament to his talent, but I'm pretty sure other systems would get more out of him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think Kessel/Letang are two players who are irreplaceable BUT you could at least make an argument for trading them for a different method (if it wasn't working).

Example
- Kessel: You cannot deny his production. It's elite. You could argue a player like Skinner is less of a ceiling but higher floor that may fit if a team has more Kessel-like players. If they wanted to invest in a Sprong-like player in the top 6, then yes an argument for Skinner over Kessel would at least be appropriate even though i'd argue against it myself.

- Letang: If you had Schultz and let's say Mike Green also on the team, you could argue maybe moving Letang for a less high of a ceiling but higher floor more steady #1. But it would have to come with years of failure trying to get a Cup with many examples of Letang's style of play not fitting the identity of the Pens.

Once again... not appropriate in our situation. Tanger was a HUGE part of 2 Cups and fits our identity better than probably any player on defense in the game. I'd argue against moving him, but if we were Tampa and we came up short every single time, then I'd feel the argument would at least be on the table.



So in reality we already know it works with Kessel/Letang. Stop wanting new toys. These guys fit our identity and have proven to be a huge reason why we win the Cup. I'm riding both contracts out and not even thinking twice about it.

Letang and Kessel have their foibles, but they've both been great this year and it should take a motherlode to part with either. Something like Kessel for Coyle plus isn't worth talking about.

That said, I don't think some of the proposals made during the summer are out of line. A deal revolving around acquiring Skinner and moving Kessel, or Letang for Petry/Spurgeon++ were discussed, and they still hold up to scrutiny IMO.

 

[Pancakes]

Moving Letang would be foolish.

 

[LOGiK]

This isn't completely true. You can win starts for parts deals very quickly... but only if the star is not as vital as people thought and in making the deal, it lets you cater to the needs of your other stars and internal guys step up. Ref: Duchene, O'Reilly.

Is this applicable to Kessel? Mainly no. We don't have the internal pieces (Sprong not working out has put a dampener on this), he's not a dressing room problem or anything. And he's pretty important.

But there's a certain amount of yes in that Geno wanders the desert when it comes to linemates, either trying to make him and Kessel work (I'd say a quarter of the time its as good as it gets and the rest of the time its deeply flawed) or making do because we spent our stuff when it comes to star wingers there. This is amplified by the fact that Hornqvist is a death or glory fit with Geno as well. If you got a part that really fitted with Geno... I think you win the trade.

I think that's the only way the Kessel for parts trade works right now (unless you already got your replacement in free agency). Or Kessel for lesser player and 1st, as Sidney mentions. But it's in my mind.

edit: p.s. I have to disagree with ColePens about Kessel fitting with our identity. I think its quite conspicuous that he's really not a Sully type player. That he does such good work here is testament to his talent, but I'm pretty sure other systems would get more out of him.

I think Brassard is the biggest non-Sully player and this guy gets to skate around looking at the purdy birdies night in - night out for 1.8 mil less than Kessel?

 

[Peat]

I think Brassard is the biggest non-Sully player and this guy gets to skate around looking at the purdy birdies night in - night out for 1.8 mil less than Kessel?

3.8m less. We have retention remember. And Brassard's tenure here is looking increasingly unlikely to extend to March.

 

[Ogrezilla]

This isn't completely true. You can win starts for parts deals very quickly... but only if the star is not as vital as people thought and in making the deal, it lets you cater to the needs of your other stars and internal guys step up. Ref: Duchene, O'Reilly.

Is this applicable to Kessel? Mainly no. We don't have the internal pieces (Sprong not working out has put a dampener on this), he's not a dressing room problem or anything. And he's pretty important.

But there's a certain amount of yes in that Geno wanders the desert when it comes to linemates, either trying to make him and Kessel work (I'd say a quarter of the time its as good as it gets and the rest of the time its deeply flawed) or making do because we spent our stuff when it comes to star wingers there. This is amplified by the fact that Hornqvist is a death or glory fit with Geno as well. If you got a part that really fitted with Geno... I think you win the trade.

I think that's the only way the Kessel for parts trade works right now (unless you already got your replacement in free agency). Or Kessel for lesser player and 1st, as Sidney mentions. But it's in my mind.

edit: p.s. I have to disagree with ColePens about Kessel fitting with our identity. I think its quite conspicuous that he's really not a Sully type player. That he does such good work here is testament to his talent, but I'm pretty sure other systems would get more out of him.

If guess if you get the exact right guy but that's tough to predict.

I also love that Kessel is different than the rest of our team. He gives a completely different type of look than our other wings.

 

[LOGiK]

3.8m less. We have retention remember. And Brassard's tenure here is looking increasingly unlikely to extend to March.

Yeah, but I mean ideally, in true value (HAH), Brassard is getting 5.0 million per.

 

[Peat]

If guess if you get the exact right guy but that's tough to predict.

I also love that Kessel is different than the rest of our team. He gives a completely different type of look than our other wings.

Right. To be sure of getting that exact right guy, you're basically looking for a 1 for 1 trade.

And... to a certain extent I like it too. And to a certain extent it frustrates me. Particularly as I feel we don't see the best of him enough.

 

[td_ice]

That is spectacular!

 

[Bnat66]

We're on to Los Angeles

 

[vodeni]

I'll bet he actually said "Sid is Captain."

and remember they put those C letters Geno did K (as Kapitan), thre is really hard to find a consistently better bunch of professionala thletes whoa re also the best in the world

 

[CertifiedLurker]

edit: p.s. I have to disagree with ColePens about Kessel fitting with our identity. I think its quite conspicuous that he's really not a Sully type player. That he does such good work here is testament to his talent, but I'm pretty sure other systems would get more out of him.

Bud, the identity of THIS team has always been hard forecheck, skill and speed. Thats Kessel. Whether he's exactly what Sullivan wants in a player is something else. A team identity is naturally evolved, not forced upon the team by the coaches wishes.

 

[Turin]

Bud, the identity of THIS team has always been hard forecheck, skill and speed. Thats Kessel. Whether he's exactly what Sullivan wants in a player is something else. A team identity is naturally evolved, not forced upon the team by the coaches wishes.

Hard forecheck? Maybe on his most inspired days. As a feature in his game? I don’t think I’d say that.

 

[Shrimper]

Didn't watch the game as it was on at 3:30am. Murray look okay? Guessing the stats don't do him justice?