Penguins to Winnipeg offer

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cneely

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me2 said:
The problem for Winnipeg is not the number of hockey fans, its got more than many of the NHLs US cities. The problem is the number of hockey fans that can afford $40-50 a ticket and also the number of businesses that can afford boxes.


There is exactly the issue.
As anyone in Toronto can attest, the game is not for the masses anymore, it is for the rich, and for corporations. Winnipeg has a small population of affluent citizens who could afford the average NHL ticket price on a regular basis.
 

Sixty Six

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cneely said:
Ticket sales are but a small portion of NHL team revenues. What's more important are local media contracts, advertising, and luxury box receipts.

With some sort of revenue sharing in the new CBA, and of course, a salary cap, Winnipeg could be a succesfull market, but don't hold your breath.

out of the 4 major sports leagues in the US the NHL relies most on gate receipts, so ticket sales are huge to the NHL
 

ScottyBowman

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cneely said:
Ticket sales are but a small portion of NHL team revenues. What's more important are local media contracts, advertising, and luxury box receipts.

With some sort of revenue sharing in the new CBA, and of course, a salary cap, Winnipeg could be a succesfull market, but don't hold your breath.

Great. We need another leech hanging on with welfare. No thanks.
 

jacketracket*

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cneely said:
There is exactly the issue.
As anyone in Toronto can attest, the game is not for the masses anymore, it is for the rich, and for corporations. Winnipeg has a small population of affluent citizens who could afford the average NHL ticket price on a regular basis.
I hate to sound naive, but I don't follow the NBA at all.

With their roster size (relative to MLB and the NFL) and games played per season as close to that of the NHL, does that league have a similar dependence on corporate dollars to fill seats (tv contracts aside)?
 

Le Golie

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Wetcoaster said:
Not according to the figures I have seen. Winnipeg is falling back and is expected to be overtaken by several other cities in the next few years.

That's because Winnipeg's growth rate is lower than some other cities. Doesn't mean it's declining in poulation.

Last figure I saw was a 2 or 3 per cent increase in 2003.

The encouraging thing about that is; the last decade has seen a major movement by upper/middle class families to bedroom communities just outside Winnipeg. They all work and spend their money in Winnipeg but they commute. To see Winnipeg still increasing in population despite the mass exodus to places like Stonewall, La Salle, Oakbank is a good sign. These places are all within 30 minutes of the MTS centre and all those towns would produce several season ticket holders.
 

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Wetcoaster said:
Here is some data that will give you some idea where the NHL will be looking (and why they have located franchises where they are). This is a survey of the Top 200 big cities in the US ranked on economic performance.

If you click on the city you will get a snapshot of its economy and population. There are at lest 25 US cities (probably 50) in front of Winnipeg with its declining population of 650,000, stagnant economy and confiscatory tax regime.
http://bestcities.milkeninstitute.org/bc200.html

You have sold me. I no longer consider Winnipeg a viable market. The Milken numbers are impressive. Of course not many of those are hockey markets, but it does show the kind of growth you need. Too bad there isn't a Canadian local that can support the game beyond the ones already there. I guess relocation is not that good an idea and folding teams that get into trouble is likely a better alternative.
 

Wetcoaster

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The Iconoclast said:
You have sold me. I no longer consider Winnipeg a viable market. The Milken numbers are impressive. Of course not many of those are hockey markets, but it does show the kind of growth you need. Too bad there isn't a Canadian local that can support the game beyond the ones already there. I guess relocation is not that good an idea and folding teams that get into trouble is likely a better alternative.

It is unfortunate, I would like to see the NHL back in Quebec City and Winnipeg but I just cannot see it happening based on these sorts of figures. The NHL looks at this and there is no way to see teams moving back to those two markets. Also you have to factor in income levels, corporate base as well as growth and unfortunately however you crunch the numbers, Winnipeg just is a non-starter.

I know the "Bring Back the Jets" group has pinned their hopes on a restructured CBA but even so why would you go to Winnipeg when you have so many alternate markets where you could make much more profit without starting behind the eight-ball of higher taxes, less government incentives and a better over-all economy?
 

Wetcoaster

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Don_Cherry said:
That's because Winnipeg's growth rate is lower than some other cities. Doesn't mean it's declining in poulation.

Last figure I saw was a 2 or 3 per cent increase in 2003.

The encouraging thing about that is; the last decade has seen a major movement by upper/middle class families to bedroom communities just outside Winnipeg. They all work and spend their money in Winnipeg but they commute. To see Winnipeg still increasing in population despite the mass exodus to places like Stonewall, La Salle, Oakbank is a good sign. These places are all within 30 minutes of the MTS centre and all those towns would produce several season ticket holders.

It puts Winnipeg behind at least 25 other cities with better NHL demographics.
 

Hawker14

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Wetcoaster said:
Here is some data that will give you some idea where the NHL will be looking (and why they have located franchises where they are). This is a survey of the Top 200 big cities in the US ranked on economic performance.

If you click on the city you will get a snapshot of its economy and population. There are at lest 25 US cities (probably 50) in front of Winnipeg with its declining population of 650,000, stagnant economy and confiscatory tax regime.
http://bestcities.milkeninstitute.org/bc200.html

is this the same michael milken who was fined $ 200 million and sent to prison for 22 months ???

with all the right wing "think tanks" available, this is a strange one to use for credibility.
 
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cneely

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Reilly311 said:

Sorry, I should re-phrase.
Ticket sales would be a small percentage of revenues in a city like Winnipeg. There are simply not enough corporations, and not enough affluent citiznes to afford tickets at an average price of $50 a pop.
I think Winnipeg coulld support tickets from $60 down to $20, more at the low end, an average price of $30. Multiply that by 15000 fans times 42 games, and you come up with less than 20 million. Not enough to cover half a team's payroll, let alone operating costs.

Media revenue, advertising, and luxury box sales would have to account for a large part of revenues, and again, due to the lack of corporate HQ's in Winnipeg, I don't think that could happen.
 

cneely

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Population numbers aside

Ignore the total population for a moment, and consider hockey fans per capita, and Winnipeg is certainly a hockey market.

Really, Winnipeg could have 300,000 people, and I would still place a large bet on the fact that the city would have more people who would want to attend an NHL game than, for example, Houston. It's a religion up here folks, you simply have to look at the success of the WJC's in Grand Forks to know who seriously Manitoban's love hockey.

Whether or not those people who would want to attend game can afford to is the question in the big business that is the NHL today.
 

cneely

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Pittsburgh averaged less than 12,000 fans a game last year, and the city is balking at building a new arena.

If a team's going to move, why not them?
 

Lionel Hutz

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cneely said:
Pittsburgh averaged less than 12,000 fans a game last year, and the city is balking at building a new arena.

If a team's going to move, why not them?

Because this franchise moving to Winnipeg has been flatly denied.

Besides, the arena issue is not dead, its contingent on the slots which is still up in the air. Do some research on the circumstances in Pittsburgh before you comment on it.

This topic comes up weekly, its been beaten, now it is dead.
 

cneely

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Lionel Hutz said:
Because this franchise moving to Winnipeg has been flatly denied.
And what would you expect? "Yes, we're moving to Winnipeg in two years time."
That would put fannies in the seats, wouldn't it.

Besides, the arena issue is not dead, its contingent on the slots which is still up in the air. Do some research on the circumstances in Pittsburgh before you comment on it.
I never said it was dead. Read what I wrote before you comment on it.

This topic comes up weekly, its been beaten, now it is dead.
If you're sick of the subject, skip the thread. I haven't seen any other threads, so it's an interesting issue to me.
 

Lionel Hutz

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cneely said:
I never said it was dead. Read what I wrote before you comment on it.

No but you said the city was balking, when the city is not the issue. The city is not going to build the arena, period. If it gets built it will be through revenue from the slots license. This shows clearly that you haven't the foggiest clue of the circumstances, so perhaps you should look into them before jumping to conclusions.
 

cneely

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Lionel Hutz said:
No but you said the city was balking, when the city is not the issue. The city is not going to build the arena, period. If it gets built it will be through revenue from the slots license. This shows clearly that you haven't the foggiest clue of the circumstances, so perhaps you should look into them before jumping to conclusions.

You're right. All I know is that the Pens were looking for public money to build, and we're turned down. They are now trying other avenues which may or may not be successful. The point is, their success in Pittsburgh depends on the ability to build a new facility.
 

Benji Frank

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Can we start a Leafs to Winnipeg thread?? I kind of hope Eddie can finish his career here. Plus Fergie spent a good chunk of his youth here so he'd know where the players he trades for can move to. He can really help them out in that regard & make them feel really warm and fuzzy about Winnipeg. We got rid of the picture of the Queen in the new arena too, so there's really nothing bad the visiting teams can say about us now!! Oh yeah, we're expanding the Zoo too!!! :D

Plus if the NHL has a cap of 39 mill, the Leaf fans will no longer support NHL hockey as it will be considered bush league....

So what do you all say ... can we?? Huh?? Please?? Can we???

Did I mention Josh Green is already in town playing for the Moose?? And he said someday he'd like to play for the Leafs, so this would be perfect.......

I'll be the waterboy ... for half of what the Leaf guy was charging!!! Woohooo!! Now Fergie can put a few extra bucks towards a backup goalie!!! :D :D :D
 

Luigi Lemieux

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cneely said:
Pittsburgh averaged less than 12,000 fans a game last year, and the city is balking at building a new arena.

If a team's going to move, why not them?
Didn't Winnipeg average about that much with a PLAYOFF team? Did you forget that the pens had excellent attendance from the late 80s to 2001?
 

mr gib

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Round John said:
Don't know if this is old news or not but I still found it interesting.

From the Saskatoon Star Phoenix newspaper.

"The only thing I really know about (the MTS Centre) is the letter that was written to Mario (Lemieux) last year about moving the Penguins there." Saskatoon Blades General Manager and Head Coach Lorne Molleken who was an assistant coach with Pittsburgh at the time.

If the lockout situation continues and a new building doesn't happen wouldn't it make sense for Lemieux to sell and turn his interest into cash? Right now no money is coming in either as a player or as an owner.
i think someone on the boards last week reported that pittsburgh passed some gambling initiative -
which will be used to build a new arena - anyone remember that? - slots n stuff
 

Poignant Discussion*

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mr gib said:
i think someone on the boards last week reported that pittsburgh passed some gambling initiative -
which will be used to build a new arena - anyone remember that? - slots n stuff

Wonderful, get the addicted gamblers to save the team. Can you really go any lower.

"We saved the team for a few years, but 10,000 families are now homeless in the process"

Do I hear a big Go Pens go?
 

ScottyBowman

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NataSatan666 said:
Wonderful, get the addicted gamblers to save the team. Can you really go any lower.

"We saved the team for a few years, but 10,000 families are now homeless in the process"

Do I hear a big Go Pens go?

Who cares if people are stupid? As long as the casino gives them the money for a new arena, all is well in the steel city.
 

Wetcoaster

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cneely said:
Ignore the total population for a moment, and consider hockey fans per capita, and Winnipeg is certainly a hockey market.

Really, Winnipeg could have 300,000 people, and I would still place a large bet on the fact that the city would have more people who would want to attend an NHL game than, for example, Houston. It's a religion up here folks, you simply have to look at the success of the WJC's in Grand Forks to know who seriously Manitoban's love hockey.

Whether or not those people who would want to attend game can afford to is the question in the big business that is the NHL today.

The population is only one factor, but it is a problem for Winnipeg.

They also have an undersized arena, poor economy, stagnant growth, a confiscatory tax regime, the problem of the Canadian dollar, low per capita income, no potential for media market growth and most important of all to the NHL a poor corporate market.

If Edmonton and Calgary who have the corporate sector, the arenas, population and economic growth are having difficulties, then Winnipeg is dead as a dodo.

Yes, the CBA may change things but if that is the case there are 25 other cities which sit in front of Winnipeg where an owner can make more money. The US cities give substantial incentives to relocating teams - why do you think the North Stars moved to Dallas?
 
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