Confirmed with Link: **A LOOK BACK ** Penguins sign Jack Johnson 5 years 16.25 total (3.25 cap hit)

Crosbyfan

Registered User
Nov 27, 2003
12,633
2,442
He is overpaid by around a million per year given what the average bottom pairing defenseman made last year, $1.8 million. That would be $2 million this year with the cap rising by $5 million dollars. I linked the stats in an article the day that the Pens signed him.

If he only plays as an average bottom pairing defenseman he is not overpaid by much. Anything better and he is a bargain.

Looked at it that way and it ain't the huge gamble people are making it out to be.
Is this all combined? What is the average of bottom pairing Ds signed as a UFA, RFA, or on ELC contracts?
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
The problem is that people think Jack Johnson is a traditional bottom pairing defenseman, he really isn't. He's a "bottom pairing defenseman" on this team that can, if guided correctly, get back to being a #4, but on this team, he slots in as anything from a 4B to a 5 or 6.

I think people are just severely over thinking this whole JJ signing and are dreading something they haven't even seen on this team.

Likely the same people that thought Niskanen was crap, Schultz was a waste without the context of the Niskanen rejuvenation, etc etc...

Tl;DR - Slow the f*** down and wait for October.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
The Penguins board always has to blow something out of proportion beyond any comprehension.

Turns out it was Jack Johnson. Whipping boy before he's even stepped foot on the ice. This forum is going to be a nightmare all summer.

Hah...shows what you know.

We've been blowing shit out of proportion since the Mario draft.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SHOOTANDSCORE

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,446
14,304
Pittsburgh
Is this all combined? What is the average of bottom pairing Ds signed as a UFA, RFA, or on ELC contracts?

All contracts combined. Excluding ELC's, and focusing on UFA's exclusively, would of course average higher, much higher I would think.

The average is shown in this chart though my original link was to another article.

31jul2017-3rd-pair-value.jpg


Overview of some the top value 3rd pairing defensemen

As long as JJ hits the lowest bar imaginable if he is overpaid it will not be by much, and as the cap rises (already it rose $5 million this year making $1.8 million = $2 million this year) it will become even better.

To give you an idea last year the average 2nd pair defensman made $3.7 million. Exclude ELC's, etc. you are way over $4 million per. Add another $5 million to the cap this year as well and it is more like $4.3 million per last year.

28jul2017-value-2nd-pair.jpg


Overview of some of the top-value 2nd pairing puck-moving defensemen
 
Last edited:

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
Unless you're showing me bar graphics of my pie graph usage of how many pies I eat in bars, I have zero f***s about this @Jaded-Fan, I told you this during one of our skype calls.

No one listens to me anymore.
 

AjaxTelamon

Registered User
Jul 8, 2011
6,068
1,821
All contracts combined. Excluding ELC's, and focusing on UFA's exclusively, would of course average higher, much higher I would think.

The average is shown in this chart though my original link was to another article.

31jul2017-3rd-pair-value.jpg


Overview of some the top value 3rd pairing defensemen

As long as JJ hits the lowest bar imaginable if he is overpaid it will not be by much, and as the cap rises (already it rose $5 million this year making $1.8 million = $2 million this year) it will become even better.

To give you an idea last year the average 2nd pair defensman made $3.7 million. Exclude ELC's, etc. you are way over $4 million per. Add another $5 million to the cap this year as well and it is more like $4.3 million per last year.

28jul2017-value-2nd-pair.jpg


Overview of some of the top-value 2nd pairing puck-moving defensemen

That site has some interesting stats about puck moving that puts Schultz and Dumo as the 2nd and 3rd best Pens D men in 2016-17 for puck moving, though Dumo faced tougher QoC than Schultz. Cole faced the lowest QoC and was still a fairly poor puck mover.

24jul2017-penguins-v2.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jaded-Fan

Shaftception

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
4,025
1,581
I have no real opinion on Johnson, I'd be happy if he works out well.

What I am interested in is where the talking point about how our defense/the way we play defense will better a player coming into our environment came from. I'd love for that to prove true, but am I mistaken in feeling our defense isn't exactly a strong point of the team? Despite quality overall stats during the cup runs, I feel the weakness of this team was undoubtedly the defense (and not just when compared to the offense with Crosby/Malkin), which was sheltered imo heavily by a combination of the forwards playing a 200-ft fore-checking style with superior speed than every opponent coupled with a hell of a lot of shot blocking (especially when Bonino was here).

They weren't exactly defensive stalwarts even during the peak of the 2016 buzzsaw, they were for the most part simply faster than everyone, which benefited puck-retrieval, blocking shooting lanes, pressuring puck carriers, etc. 2017 was a lot more reliant on shot-blocking and praying they wouldn't get scored on, while relying on rope-a-dope odd-man rushes off turnovers for scoring because they weren't as fast and thus dominant possession-wise. At least based on my memory of events.

So yeah one can point to Schultz as a reclamation project that worked out, but I'm not seeing or at least would welcome someone convincing me of the promise in the defense as a whole going forward. Said potential promise being based on expected adjustments to what failed them in 2018 I assume? I was under the impression poor defensive coverage along with the inability to adjust away from continued failed pinches leading to odd-man rushes (what gave them issues against Tampa Bay in 16, and ironically what we did to the opposition in 17) was the primary reason they were eliminated, along with a lack of secondary scoring and Murray struggling being prime causes as well. The way some in the media have covered this signing you'd think we were the Kings defensively or something.

Johnson can come in and exceed expectations all he wants if he's capable which would be great, but I'm not yet sold on the unit as whole let alone it's individual parts. If someone can convince me otherwise I'd love to hear it, it's my only real hesitancy going into next season and would appreciate some optimism if it's warranted in this regard.
 

Tom Hanks

Spelling mistakes brought to you by my iPhone.
Nov 10, 2017
30,408
32,434
I have no real opinion on Johnson, I'd be happy if he works out well.

What I am interested in is where the talking point about how our defense/the way we play defense will better a player coming into our environment came from. I'd love for that to prove true, but am I mistaken in feeling our defense isn't exactly a strong point of the team? Despite quality overall stats during the cup runs, I feel the weakness of this team was undoubtedly the defense (and not just when compared to the offense with Crosby/Malkin), which was sheltered imo heavily by a combination of the forwards playing a 200-ft fore-checking style with superior speed than every opponent coupled with a hell of a lot of shot blocking (especially when Bonino was here).

They weren't exactly defensive stalwarts even during the peak of the 2016 buzzsaw, they were for the most part simply faster than everyone, which benefited puck-retrieval, blocking shooting lanes, pressuring puck carriers, etc. 2017 was a lot more reliant on shot-blocking and praying they wouldn't get scored on, while relying on rope-a-dope odd-man rushes off turnovers for scoring because they weren't as fast and thus dominant possession-wise. At least based on my memory of events.

So yeah one can point to Schultz as a reclamation project that worked out, but I'm not seeing or at least would welcome someone convincing me of the promise in the defense as a whole going forward. Said potential promise being based on expected adjustments to what failed them in 2018 I assume? I was under the impression poor defensive coverage along with the inability to adjust away from continued failed pinches leading to odd-man rushes (what gave them issues against Tampa Bay in 16, and ironically what we did to the opposition in 17) was the primary reason they were eliminated, along with a lack of secondary scoring and Murray struggling being prime causes as well. The way some in the media have covered this signing you'd think we were the Kings defensively or something.

Johnson can come in and exceed expectations all he wants if he's capable which would be great, but I'm not yet sold on the unit as whole let alone it's individual parts. If someone can convince me otherwise I'd love to hear it, it's my only real hesitancy going into next season and would appreciate some optimism if it's warranted in this regard.

The defense is built to maximise our offense. For it to be effective the forwards have to push back to have that structure in the D zone for it to be effective. If they don’t we don’t have the right guys back there.
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,446
14,304
Pittsburgh
The defense is built to maximise our offense. For it to be effective the forwards have to push back to have that structure in the D zone for it to be effective. If they don’t we don’t have the right guys back there.

There were times last year where many of the forwards who were too lazy, sandbagging it, whatever, to help out defensively. Not that several defenders do not deserve blame for their play, but there was blame to go around and the forwards earned their share.
 

Crosbyfan

Registered User
Nov 27, 2003
12,633
2,442
There were times last year where many of the forwards who were too lazy, sandbagging it, whatever, to help out defensively. Not that several defenders do not deserve blame for their play, but there was blame to go around and the forwards earned their share.
Absolutely. If you want your D to inch you better at least start shading back and not "wait and see" if he is successful...and if you don't want him to pinch then just get back already.
 

Tender Rip

Wears long pants
Feb 12, 2007
17,972
5,171
Shanghai, China
At worst he is a million overpaid while being a very good third pairing D-Man for us - who can log minutes when needed.

I don’t get the hyper ventilation about this signing to be honest.
Might not have been the first guy I would have tried for and the lenght of the deal is not ideal, but I get what they’re looking for.

If he plays like he did for the vast majority of his time in Columbus we are going to be very happy.
 

CrosbyMalkin

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
6,700
1,722
The problem is that people think Jack Johnson is a traditional bottom pairing defenseman, he really isn't. He's a "bottom pairing defenseman" on this team that can, if guided correctly, get back to being a #4, but on this team, he slots in as anything from a 4B to a 5 or 6.

I think people are just severely over thinking this whole JJ signing and are dreading something they haven't even seen on this team.

Likely the same people that thought Niskanen was crap, Schultz was a waste without the context of the Niskanen rejuvenation, etc etc...

Tl;DR - Slow the **** down and wait for October.

I agree with all this. JJ was playing 24+ minutes a game for most of his career which was not the best fit for him. When JJ played 22 minutes a game 2 years ago he had a really good season and if we got him for this contract after that season everyone would be talking about how much a steal we got. I really have no doubt at all that JJ is going to be a very good defenseman for the Pens and will play 20 minutes a game or slightly more and be very effective. JJ ranked as one of the best outlet passers in the league and in our system that is so important (of defenseman who logged at least 1,000 even-strength minutes only 5 defenseman were better than Johnson at outlet pass from their defensive zone and into the neutral zone). I think his game will flourish in our system and many people on these boards will be eating crow just like the Schultz, Niskanen, Daley, and other signings that the Pens have flourished in this system.

I bet JJ has a big bounce back season and will shut people up real fast. His skills, skating, size, physical style, and outlet passing are all top notch and he has something to prove. To get someone with JJ's upside for that cap hit will look like a steal. My bold prediction is that I bet he is better than Schultz who is getting over $2 million more a year and Maatta who is also being payed more. Time will tell but I believe he is as or more talented than both of them and will play the same or more minutes than both of those players this year. I see JJ on the second PP and also playing on the PK and his pairing will play as much regular 5 on 5 time as the other pairing that is not Dumoulin-Letang. I believe the Pens will play the 2nd and 3rd pairings fairly even and it will be interesting who plays with who of those bottom 4 defenseman.
 
Last edited:

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->