Post-Game Talk: Penguins 6, Avalanche 3 - A Hattrick of Almost Goals for ZAR (And Actual Goals for Horny)

[Andy99]

I got to see this one live. Hornqvist aside, there wasn't a ton to like about the game. The one intriguing thing I saw was Brassard and Guentzel seemed to have some chemistry.

It's very clear that a big change needs to be made with this team right now. We have pieces to do it.

When Sid was out, Brass centering Jake and Horny was very good...if Simon is out, Brass-Sid-Jake could be a very solid line....

I agree we need changes and we’re not a Cup contender right now...I’m not sure even with changes we will be unless Murray reverts back to Cup-winning Murray...if he returns and plays well however, with a couple faster, skilled players, we could be back in the mix...

 

[JTG]

When Sid was out, Brass centering Jake and Horny was very good...if Simon is out, Brass-Sid-Jake could be a very solid line....

I agree we need changes and we’re not a Cup contender right now...I’m not sure even with changes we will be unless Murray reverts back to Cup-winning Murray...if he returns and plays well however, with a couple faster, skilled players, we could be back in the mix...

The issue is when you move Brassard to wing, he is both playing a position he is not accustomed to and you have a gigantic hole in your 3rd line.

I'd put Hornqvist with Sid. Maybe move up ZAR? He can play a heavy game at least. He can muck and grind around the net. It w ill drive Sid nuts, but that is what it is. Try Jake with Brass. If that works, try to swing a deal for a top 6 LW.

We really need defense though. Sheahan at this point is embarrassing. Zero redeeming qualities. I expected so much more from him.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

The issue is when you move Brassard to wing, he is both playing a position he is not accustomed to and you have a gigantic hole in your 3rd line.

I'd put Hornqvist with Sid. Maybe move up ZAR? He can play a heavy game at least. He can muck and grind around the net. It w ill drive Sid nuts, but that is what it is. Try Jake with Brass. If that works, try to swing a deal for a top 6 LW.

We really need defense though. Sheahan at this point is embarrassing. Zero redeeming qualities. I expected so much more from him.

We are in trouble if we need to move ZAR up any more than he already has. If he somehow moved up to Sid's line he'd basically be the Lane Kiffin of hockey.

 

[NMK11]

I think largely because it has some very frustrating moments to watch - Malkin's great at making space for other players and Hornqvist frequently wastes that - and possibly some bias to the thought that Malkin needs a Neal/Kessel rather than two grinders, with Hornqvist on Malkin's line usually leading to a two grinder approach.

The stats say different but for a lot of people its a prime example of why they don't cotton to stats.

I wonder who the most frequent third linemate is for Malkin and Horny when they're together though? I could be way off on this and would welcome someone correcting me, but anecdotally I feel like the third wheel is a Hags or Kunitz or another grinder/less skilled type which leads to that scenario of there being no one to finish on the line. For some reason Malkin seems to end up so frequently with two of the same type of player.

The best he's ever looked for stretches are with a nicely balanced line (Sykora-Malone, Kunitz-Neal). If there's no one to finish, his line's usually possess the puck a lot but his talents are wasted. But if there's no one to battle for pucks for him, Malkin ends up being a puck retriever for himself and that's just as bad.

 

[Gurglesons]

We are in trouble if we need to move ZAR up any more than he already has. If he somehow moved up to Sid's line he'd basically be the Lane Kiffin of hockey.

Disagree. The best (it was still bad) ZAR looked was with Crosby.

 

[Shady Machine]

If Patrick Hornqvist had average NHL hands, he'd be a 7-8 million dollar player.

I think people underestimate his hands/skills. The first goal took a fair amount of hands and skill. To be able to tip pucks and make moves in tight to score or set up teammates takes a lot of skill IMO.

Obviously you need to be a warrior to do what he does, but I believe he has average hands in his own way.

 

[JTG]

I think people underestimate his hands/skills. The first goal took a fair amount of hands and skill. To be able to tip pucks and make moves in tight to score or set up teammates takes a lot of skill IMO.

Obviously you need to be a warrior to do what he does, but I believe he has average hands in his own way.

People equate dangles to having hands. To work as closely into the net that he does, you have to have incredibly quick hands.

 

[Peat]

I wonder who the most frequent third linemate is for Malkin and Horny when they're together though? I could be way off on this and would welcome someone correcting me, but anecdotally I feel like the third wheel is a Hags or Kunitz or another grinder/less skilled type which leads to that scenario of there being no one to finish on the line. For some reason Malkin seems to end up so frequently with two of the same type of player.

The best he's ever looked for stretches are with a nicely balanced line (Sykora-Malone, Kunitz-Neal). If there's no one to finish, his line's usually possess the puck a lot but his talents are wasted. But if there's no one to battle for pucks for him, Malkin ends up being a puck retriever for himself and that's just as bad.

Varies from season to season but mainly another grinder, yeah. We just haven't had that much skill on the LW since Horny got here and what there has been has mostly gone badly with Geno (Sheary) or been bogarted by Sid (Guentzel).

As for Geno - I can't comment on what happened before my time, but since Sully got here, it seems the far bigger component in whether Geno has gone well has been Geno, not his line mates. He's done it with balanced lines, grinding lines, finesse lines... I like balanced lines, but I'm no longer that fussed as to what Geno gets as long as the players are good at something.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I think people underestimate his hands/skills. The first goal took a fair amount of hands and skill. To be able to tip pucks and make moves in tight to score or set up teammates takes a lot of skill IMO.

Obviously you need to be a warrior to do what he does, but I believe he has average hands in his own way.

Horny passes well off the boards when he wins those puck battles on the O zone to set guys up.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think people underestimate his hands/skills. The first goal took a fair amount of hands and skill. To be able to tip pucks and make moves in tight to score or set up teammates takes a lot of skill IMO.

Obviously you need to be a warrior to do what he does, but I believe he has average hands in his own way.

Yeah that's a different kind of hands that he certainly has. But in terms of stick handling and making plays with the puck on his stick, I think he's clearly lacking. He's good at the quick touch stuff.

 

[The Greatest 101]

With Pearson on the left side, I’m fine with Geno and Horny together.

 

[Ogrezilla]

With Pearson on the left side, I’m fine with Geno and Horny together.

It looked great last night certainly.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Disagree. The best (it was still bad) ZAR looked was with Crosby.

Yeah, but you kinda file that under "well of course". Unfortunately we only have two wing spots for Sid.

 

[SherogoesHAM]

Bozak would be insanely cheap right now.

 

[Andy99]

It looked great last night certainly.

It always looks good when Geno is going and engaged and skating...but he's got two guys right now who can't set him up with great passes....that line is going to have to bang in front of the goalie as they did last night, but any time a team clogs the crease that line will be ineffective...I think we really need at least one more skilled quick wing

 

[td_ice]

Bozak would be insanely cheap right now.

True, but horrible contract. Wouldn't want him on that contract. Blues messed up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Disagree. The best (it was still bad) ZAR looked was with Crosby.

Yeah, I don't get why people say stuff like that while the same group said that Sprong needs to be playing with talent. ZAR is the same way, he's just a very different kind of player. ZAR isn't a 4th line grinder, he's a net front guy that fits with skilled players.

Like I've said before, ZAR's big positive attributes are his high hockey IQ and his hands around the net. He's a guy that is always in a good position, which (mostly) makes up for his bad skating. That's a guy that fits with skilled players, not grinders.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Hornqvist rules. Was reminiscent of Staal's dominant 3rd period on Nov. 11, 2008 vs Detroit.

I knew Staal went off for a hat trick that game, but I had forgotten he scored the final three goals for the Pens in regulation to tie it, then picked Datsyuk's pocket of all people to set up the game winner. Legendary.

 

[DesertPenguin]

So if Rust and Simon are both hurt who is excited to see

ZAR Sid Guentzel
Pearson Malkin Hornqvist
Wilson Brassard Kessel
Sheahan Grant Worthless grinder

This is it boys! Sprong is finally going to get his chance...

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Yeah, I don't get why people say stuff like that while the same group said that Sprong needs to be playing with talent. ZAR is the same way, he's just a very different kind of player. ZAR isn't a 4th line grinder, he's a net front guy that fits with skilled players.

Like I've said before, ZAR's big positive attributes are his high hockey IQ and his hands around the net. He's a guy that is always in a good position, which (mostly) makes up for his bad skating. That's a guy that fits with skilled players, not grinders.

Because with Sprong you can see the top end of his potential there. ZAR's isn't anything like that or close to that and it's clear that he needs to carve out a checking line role at this level. A lot of guys need to play with better players. The question is how many other guys are obviously better suited in those lineup spots at any given time. On a decent team there's almost always someone better. On a bad team with little playoff hope, maybe ZAR is able to play on a line like that, but it's a chicken and the egg thing. You're not praying for a player like ZAR to be a top 6 if you're trying to win anything.

For the record I'm mostly with you on Sprong. I just thought it would've hurt absolutely nothing to trying him near the top of the lineup for a few games to really find some stuff out about him.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It always looks good when Geno is going and engaged and skating...but he's got two guys right now who can't set him up with great passes....that line is going to have to bang in front of the goalie as they did last night, but any time a team clogs the crease that line will be ineffective...I think we really need at least one more skilled quick wing

The best line Geno ever played on was two guys who aren't really playmakers in kunitz and Neal . The next best was arguably Malone and sykora. Geno does very well with workers and shooters.

 

[Gurglesons]

Bozak would be insanely cheap right now.

Thing about why that may be..

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah that's a different kind of hands that he certainly has. But in terms of stick handling and making plays with the puck on his stick, I think he's clearly lacking. He's good at the quick touch stuff.

It depends where on the ice. I think he is pretty good at making passes in tight around the net. I definitely get what you mean, I just think people have a narrow view of skill and hands when discussing hockey players and for me, it comes off as a dig to Horny that I don't agree with. Not calling you out or anything as it's a pretty widespread thing. Players like Sprong are called skilled and players like Horny are called unskilled. Just doesn't add up.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It depends where on the ice. I think he is pretty good at making passes in tight around the net. I definitely get what you mean, I just think people have a narrow view of skill and hands when discussing hockey players and for me, it comes off as a dig to Horny that I don't agree with. Not calling you out or anything as it's a pretty widespread thing. Players like Sprong are called skilled and players like Horny are called unskilled. Just doesn't add up.

I get what you mean and have argued that before too. I'm just saying that if you could take horny and also add the typical "skill" that people refer to you would have a superstar winger .

 

[Peat]

I get what you mean and have argued that before too. I'm just saying that if you could take horny and also add the typical "skill" that people refer to you would have a superstar winger .

Or Sid-lite.