Post-Game Talk: Penguins 5, Red Wings 3: It's About the Win, Not the Style Points

[Tender Rip]

Weird: 'cause I don't ever remember teams ever putting their best 5 against his line.

This is true, mostly. But it is also true that Geno is playing that role right now, rocking in points, plus/minus and faceoffs.

He was always capable of leading like this, but lots of times has been pigeonholed into less responsibility.

If we can find a genuine top 6 winger with a RH shot (left wall on the PP) using Gally, Bjugstad and pick (or something) as the assets going out, we can run two stud lines and a very capable bottom 6.

Hope oldie gets it done.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We won, Jake/Geno continue to produce, Marino is a stud, and Murray won a game for the first time in what felt forever.

That's pretty much the only things worth talking about about tonight's game. The rest is kind of meh.

 

[The Worst One]

Good to know that Sully has trust in my boy.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I do my share to reverse jinx the team to counteract the posters on here and to make sure the team doesn’t get a big head...

 

[Ms Maggie]

Malkin, Jake and Rust are amazing. Marino is a dude.

PP is bad

MM is a ****ing joke of a goalie.

Nonsense. MM played well.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Nonsense. MM played well.

Remember the audience. It saves you typing that response.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

Some saw this with Murray in 2018.

The crowd fought hard to not believe it tho. Can only defend 3-5 goals per game for so long.

Jarry has "it" this year. Im sure MM will be fine.....in 2-3 years. Not happening anytime soon tho. Hes only getting worse the better TJ gets.

And he constantly lets in late goals. That was the same thing MAF did which showed it was 90% mental. MM was completely confident when he won b2b cups for us. Hes broken right now. Its gonna take a few years to get it back. But once again, with an expansion team coming we may not have that luxury to wait(only re-signing MM til his RFA years are up or letting him go to arb for example if wanted to keep while not paying big money).

Don't underestimate Ron Francis. He ain't stupid. ;-)

 

[EVGENIMERLIN]

John Marino is in the Calder conversation and we got him for a 6th. Let that sink in for a second

 

[HandshakeLine]

i mean he wasn't average. hes a borderline HOFer, his playoff stats are not of an average goalie either.

Osgood? No way.

I honestly have no idea where you’re gettin any of this. It’s massively overrating Osgood while underrating the HHOF defense of the Lidstrom-era Red Wings.

 

[JTG]

This team is so close. JR has to consider all options. I know trading 1st rounders from this point on is something he's really against, but this team is capable of winning right now. And not just winning a round or two - with a couple of pieces they can be probably the toughest out in the whole league. What they are doing with a skeleton crew is unbelievable and Sully should be up for COTY honors.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Good to know that Sully has trust in my boy Teddy.

Sometimes, it seems. Sometimes.

 

[Ms Maggie]

Gotta give Sullivan et al lots of credit for keeping this stitched together group playing well. Feel good about their chances. Been a while!

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Yeah Osgood was the goalie of his generation .

Took the words right out of my fingers. Osgood was the very definition of average.

 

[EightyOne]

Gotta give Sullivan et al lots of credit for keeping this stitched together group playing well. Feel good about their chances. Been a while!

I remain decidedly negative still. Not yet ready to call them contenders.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Weird: 'cause I don't ever remember teams ever putting their best 5 against his line.

The answer has always, always been Crosby. I think what you consider outplaying and what Sid did are two different things.

It's also what allowed the kessel line out produce both in 2015'16.

Geno is great, but he's seen his share of easy matchups by design. There are reasons Sid won b2b Conn Smythes people don't understand.

Yup

So many ignore that.

Non Pens fans that always pointed out Sid's lack of scoring in the finals. We all know he didnt just get suddenly worse after dominating all playoffs. Hes that much of a team player to take away the other teams top line and top D , allowing Malkin to take over(since that was our advantage, having 2 elite Centers).

And Geno isnt dumb, he knows exactly what Sid has done for him. People always wondered .. thought he would leave to be a top line Center somewhere else. He had it made here. Couldnt have been put in a better situation. Not just him and Sid being as great as they were, but having a teammate that does whatever it takes to win. Even if it meant him not being the " hero".

If there was a series against a team where it was obvious Geno would take over if Sid and his line canceled out the opposing team's top line....they would stick with that plan. Remember the 2009 ECF against the Canes? Crosby barely did anything....Malkin got all the points. Do you really think Crosby couldn't have put up the same numbers he did in previous two series? Where he destroyed the Caps(they didnt have the D to stop him and their top line wasnt strong defensively) and the Sens the two series before that.

We know when Sid is focused on taking over, he will start shooting way more all of a sudden. Going from 1-2 shots a game to 5-6+...and we see the results.

He def loves setting others up more than scoring because he sees the game so much better than the rest(passes to where players should be....but its rare to find someone to be on the same page). Thats why I dont think his play will drop off much in late 30s. He will always be able to get the amount of assists his linemates allow him to. Whether thats 50 or 80. Surround him with two elite wingers and we will see him leading the league in assists again. Where he doesn't have to rely so much on the powerplay.

Way too many games we said " Crosby could have had 6-7 points" yet only got 1-2. Really hope Poulin is that for him.

Poulin - Crosby - Kahun
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Weird: 'cause I don't ever remember teams ever putting their best 5 against his line.

The answer has always, always been Crosby. I think what you consider outplaying and what Sid did are two different things.

It's also what allowed the kessel line out produce both in 2015'16.

Geno is great, but he's seen his share of easy matchups by design. There are reasons Sid won b2b Conn Smythes people don't understand.

I mean, not sure what you are saying with this. Look at Malkin’s numbers with Sid vs his numbers without Sid. It isn’t a small sample size. Pretty sure if you go back and watch the 2009 finals, you’ll see that Detroit tried their best d forward (Zetterberg) against Malkin, and he got destroyed. That didn’t last long. Malkin has never had a problem playing against anyone’s top 5, whether that is their best offensive or defensive group,

Malkin could have won the 2017 Smythe as well, easily, it wasn’t clear cut for Crosby, especially with Malkin’s performance in the finals.

 

[Peat]

I don’t disagree with that. I disagree with the notion that goalies play that much of a factor in winning cups.

If you had to rank all the guys on a roster in terms of importance to the average cup winning squad, where would you put the goalie?

 

[HandshakeLine]

If you had to rank all the guys on a roster in terms of importance to the average cup winning squad, where would you put the goalie?

In terms of purely individual achievements in a vacuum? Hard to say. If you have a great goalie and a shoddy defense or offensive support (ala Price), you're not going to see the worth of your generational goaltender because that team is simply not going to put them in a position to win a Cup. However, we can and have seen Pens teams manage to overcome shoddy defense and goaltending via pure offensive talent. We've also seen great defensive Pens squads melt down if something happens to disrupt their offensive ability in the playoffs.

So, you tell me, where do you put your emphasis? Personally, I put it on scoring because we've had more success structuring this team from Crosby-Malkin out, than going for goaltending or even the blueline for that matter.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Let me flip the script a bit, @Peat, when's the last time you saw a Cup champion that had stellar goaltending and nothing else?

 

[ChaosAgent]

Let me flip the script a bit, @Peat, when's the last time you saw a Cup champion that had stellar goaltending and nothing else?

2017 Pens were goaltending-driven.

 

[Peat]

Let me flip the script a bit, @Peat, when's the last time you saw a Cup champion that had stellar goaltending and nothing else?

I'm not aware of it happening (maybe Brodeur and those Devils teams? Before my time). There's simply too many boxes that need to be ticked to be a champion for stellar in one area and nothing else to ever get near. Right now, teams with stellar goaltending and nothing else don't even make the playoffs.

In terms of purely individual achievements in a vacuum? Hard to say. If you have a great goalie and a shoddy defense or offensive support (ala Price), you're not going to see the worth of your generational goaltender because that team is simply not going to put them in a position to win a Cup. However, we can and have seen Pens teams manage to overcome shoddy defense and goaltending via pure offensive talent. We've also seen great defensive Pens squads melt down if something happens to disrupt their offensive ability in the playoffs.

So, you tell me, where do you put your emphasis? Personally, I put it on scoring because we've had more success structuring this team from Crosby-Malkin out, than going for goaltending or even the blueline for that matter.

I don't think I've ever put an emphasis on attack > defence > goaltending or goaltending > attack > defence or whatever. The aim is always to be as strong as possible in all areas. Obviously that never works out and then a team works out what to lean on, but even then that lean can't be too much. Even an on-fire Sid/Geno still need the other lines to not mess it up; even an on-form goalie needs the team to not give up too many 2 on 1s. Personally what I've seen of the Pens cups is there can be no weak links; I don't think we've ever had shoddy anything, at least not in the recent ones. I guess the defence was close to it in 17, but they did a limited job well and were dug out by great offence and goaltending.

I'm trying to think of a different way to reword the question but my brain's not working great today so I'm going to answer it myself. I think its fair to say the 1C, 2C, 1D and your best winger are probably going to be the most important guys. They'll be the guys responsible for ensuring you get the goals you need and play a huge part in suppressing the opposition offence. If they fail, the team will probably fail.

After that, who else has more impact than the goaltender - because he's also a guy where if he fails, the team will probably fail.

 

[Turin]

2017 Pens were goaltending-driven.

No, that team literally led the NHL in goals.

 

[ChaosAgent]

No, that team literally led the NHL in goals.

In the playoffs? Weren't they outshot like 70% of the time?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Fleury and Murray combined for Conn Smythe level goaltending in 2017 for sure. If either of them did that for the full playoffs they would have run away with the votes.

 

[Peat]

In the playoffs? Weren't they outshot like 70% of the time?

We were, but still had more goals per game than anyone else.

2017 was a clinic in net, a clinic up front, and a just good enough mess in the middle.