Salary Cap: Penguins 2013-14 cap/roster building discussion (Contract chart in Post #1)

[The Tang]

The ceiling isn't the issue, but rather the floor. The least profitable teams in the league will be forced to spend much more money than they can afford.

We may see a lot of buyouts just so teams have it on their cap. The new CBA prevents a team from dealing to another just so they can buy them out, correct?

 

[mpp9]

Can a team hold onto the caphit vs. salary? Say, a player's caphit is 4.5, and his salary is 6 in that year. Could the current team eat half the caphit and let the other team eat the whole salary? B/c that would do wonders with trades between cap floor teams and contenders.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

A $100m cap makes me feel uneasy.

You are talking basically a decade from now. What were salaries like at the millenium? What did a house cost then? A car?

$100 million 9 years from now is not $100 million today.

 

[Lemieuxfan]

the Dupuis deal looks bad to me now. I really like him, but for the right deal, I would trade him now, or at the deadline/draft. Who elese thinks so?

 

[Vujtek]

Can a team hold onto the caphit vs. salary? Say, a player's caphit is 4.5, and his salary is 6 in that year. Could the current team eat half the caphit and let the other team eat the whole salary? B/c that would do wonders with trades between cap floor teams and contenders.

No. A team can only retain up to 50% of the contract and the retained % will be same for both cap hit and salary.

 

[KIRK]

No. A team can only retain up to 50% of the contract and the retained % will be same for both cap hit and salary.

I am a little surprised we don't see more teams making use of the right to retain salary/cap dollars.

A lot of relatively undesirable players would, IMO, yield some big returns if the team ate 1/3 to 1/2 of the salary. Example: Brian Campbell. Imagine how much help Florida could get for him if say his cap hit were 4M for this year and the next two.

 

[Stecz]

the Dupuis deal looks bad to me now. I really like him, but for the right deal, I would trade him now, or at the deadline/draft. Who elese thinks so?

He may be miscast on a scoring line, but that amout of depth scoring, 5 on 5 production, PK ability and leadership for that kinda price isn't easily replaceable.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

What is the likelihood you think of Martin (our best D) signing another contract here. Assuming his play keeps up

 

[mpp9]

What is the likelihood you think of Martin (our best D) signing another contract here. Assuming his play keeps up

Very likely. Guaranteed if Orpik leaves this summer.

 

[penguins2946*]

What is the likelihood you think of Martin (our best D) signing another contract here. Assuming his play keeps up

It depends on how Despres looks. I think they should though. If Despres can take his spot, I'd only re-sign him if he can come cheap. If Despres can't, I'd re-sign him at any price.

Pens D in 2 years should be:

Letang-Maatta
Despres-Martin
Pouliot-Scuderi

 

[The Tang]

The amnesty buyouts are still in effect for next year, right?

 

[Vujtek]

The amnesty buyouts are still in effect for next year, right?

They are. Can't use one for Dupuis though (if that's what you're asking) since they only apply to contracts signed before the lockout started.

 

[BronzeSpruce]

managing the cap

What was Shero thinking. I just realized that when Letangs contract kicks in he will be making more money than both the Blackhawks and Bruins players.

Considering he's our 3rd highest paid player and yes making more money than anyone who played in the cup finals last year is pretty telling

IMO its not IF Letang gets traded its WHEN.......even with a rising cap there's no way to fit that contract and still ice a solid team. Players like toews, Kane. Lucid . Krejci etc..... are signed for years to come, giving those teams even more flexibility if and when the cap goes up.

 

[Vujtek]

What was Shero thinking. I just realized that when Letangs contract kicks in he will be making more money than both the Blackhawks and Bruins players.

Considering he's our 3rd highest paid player and yes making more money than anyone who played in the cup finals last year is pretty telling

IMO its not IF Letang gets traded its WHEN.......even with a rising cap there's no way to fit that contract and still ice a solid team. Players like toews, Kane. Lucid . Krejci etc..... are signed for years to come, giving those teams even more flexibility if and when the cap goes up.

Those three are only signed through next season. After that Kane and Toews will get their 8+ million deals and Krejci will get 6+ million.

And Pens' cap situation will be just fine with Letang's next contract. The cap will continue to rise and there's nothing to worry about. Letang may get traded at some point but it's not to clear cap space. It would be a hockey trade.

 

[madinsomniac]

Yes, people forget there was an artificial cap this year... it basically allowed skinflint owners to bank several million, and screwed the cap teams, but even next year the cap will jump a minimum of 5 to 8 million or so... and maybe more...

 

[Jag68Sid87]

We're not managing the cap well, and Letang is only a part of the issue.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Ok a few things regarding letang since there's been a lot of talk about him lately. First off I (along with some others, but a lot wanted him signed) wanted him traded prior to the draft and thought we could have gotten a great deal. Much better than the one with Staal. It just simply wasn't going to happen though. We don't have the guts to do something like that. Staal would still be here if it wasn't for him deciding to leave.

But with all that said, now with so many people annoyed with letang ...pissed off at the signing because of the way he's playing and wanting him gone...I'm not on that train yet. We've played 29 games. He was hurt for a bit(as usual...main reason I wanted him traded) , he's a proven all star. Playing this way thru a quarter of a season doesn't bother me. We've seen plenty of guys do this then turn it around. Good example..since they are similar is drew doughty. There was a point kings fans were talking trade because he took a step back, just wasn't playing at the level he was in prior years .....yet he turns it around and becomes a top dman again. Letang has proven himself. As dumb as he can be( let's face it...letang, Malkin, and Neal will never change when it comes to that ) he is needed on this team. At least for now.

However in the future, since Maata has panned out so far and if DP can do the same....then for sure I wouldn't mind to see letang be moved for a top winger. It isn't happening right now though . Not after we just gave him this contract. We don't have the balls to do it....there's like 1 gm in the league that does. And they continue to get themselves in bad situations every year. Flyers.

Ok I'm done. 3 cups of coffee . I could keep going and find a connection to Kevin Bacon...but I'll stop now.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Ok a few things regarding letang since there's been a lot of talk about him lately. First off I (along with some others, but a lot wanted him signed) wanted him traded prior to the draft and thought we could have gotten a great deal. Much better than the one with Staal. It just simply wasn't going to happen though. We don't have the guts to do something like that. Staal would still be here if it wasn't for him deciding to leave.

But with all that said, now with so many people annoyed with letang ...pissed off at the signing because of the way he's playing and wanting him gone...I'm not on that train yet. We've played 29 games. He was hurt for a bit(as usual...main reason I wanted him traded) , he's a proven all star. Playing this way thru a quarter of a season doesn't bother me. We've seen plenty of guys do this then turn it around. Good example..since they are similar is drew doughty. There was a point kings fans were talking trade because he took a step back, just wasn't playing at the level he was in prior years .....yet he turns it around and becomes a top dman again. Letang has proven himself. As dumb as he can be( let's face it...letang, Malkin, and Neal will never change when it comes to that ) he is needed on this team. At least for now.

However in the future, since Maata has panned out so far and if DP can do the same....then for sure I wouldn't mind to see letang be moved for a top winger. It isn't happening right now though . Not after we just gave him this contract. We don't have the balls to do it....there's like 1 gm in the league that does. And they continue to get themselves in bad situations every year. Flyers.

Ok I'm done. 3 cups of coffee . I could keep going and find a connection to Kevin Bacon...but I'll stop now.

The difference between Doughty and Letang is one trended upward and the other is clearly trending downward. Is it only the injury? I doubt it. He's not brain-dead, that's not his injury. And yet he plays like it.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

They are. Can't use one for Dupuis though (if that's what you're asking) since they only apply to contracts signed before the lockout started.

I didn't really realize that...so we're super stuck with Letang :/

 

[Vujtek]

I didn't really realize that...so we're super stuck with Letang :/

Letang would have never been amnestied next summer. Zero chance for that even if it were allowed.

 

[The Tang]

They are. Can't use one for Dupuis though (if that's what you're asking) since they only apply to contracts signed before the lockout started.

Well crap. And yes that is what I was thinking.

 

[The Tang]

The cap management in the last year has been horrid. We're tying up around $12mm in just Kunitz, Dupuis and Scuderi until they're 38. $12mm on fading talent. The latter two should have never been re-signed at those prices and lengths.

$1.8mm was spent on Adams, Kobasew and (being claimed) D'Agostini. When in desperate need of a good 3rd liner after losing Cooke, Shero instead chose to pick up pieces of scrap with no impact.

Then there's the Letang deal. Unless we get a real coach that can knock some sense into him, this is a total albatross. Luckily hype remains on his side and we can still deal him but he is not worth the price tag. All the talent and none of the brains and the latter part will always keep him from reaching his ceiling.

So, basically going into next year, we can be on the hook for around $20mm of underachieving talent. Chances of signing any impact free agents (even though next year isn't very good) is fairly slim unless a deal or two is made.

 

[Vujtek]

$1.8mm was spent on Adams, Kobasew and (being claimed) D'Agostini. When in desperate need of a good 3rd liner after losing Cooke, Shero instead chose to pick up pieces of scrap with no impact.

It's not as simple as to give the salary of those three guys to just one. That would still leave two holes in the lineup that needs to be filled. If the instead of those three Shero had signed someone for $1.8 million and replaced the other two spots from within, we'd be looking at a cap hit of $3 million or more. Wouldn't have fit under the cap.

It's not easy to find good bottom-6'ers for minimum salary either. But both Kobasew and D'Agostini were good signings for league minimum salary. Low risk, decent reward signings to the bottom-6. D'Agostini didn't pan out and we got rid of him easily. Kobasew was good early on and hopefully will be good once he returns from his injury.

Adams could have been replaced with someone else but you can't look at it like he's salary prevented the team from signing a $1.8 million 3rd liner. Adams would have been needed to be replaced if he weren't re-signed so at most that would have saved about $100k or so in cap space. Nothing meaningful from cap management perspective. You can argue it from roster management perspective though if you think Adams is useless. I don't actually even mind having him there these days.

Letang will bounce back and prove himself worthy of that deal. I have lots of faith in him. He's a great player who's just struggling right now.

I would have liked to see Dupuis let go in the summer but Shero chose otherwise. It is what it is. Hopefully he'll get better or Shero can trade one d-man for a top-6 forward which would allow to put Dupuis in the 3rd line where he belongs.

 

[The Tang]

It's not as simple as to give the salary of those three guys to just one. That would still leave two holes in the lineup that needs to be filled. If the instead of those three Shero had signed someone for $1.8 million and replaced the other two spots from within, we'd be looking at a cap hit of $3 million or more. Wouldn't have fit under the cap.

It's not easy to find good bottom-6'ers for minimum salary either. But both Kobasew and D'Agostini were good signings for league minimum salary. Low risk, decent reward signings to the bottom-6. D'Agostini didn't pan out and we got rid of him easily. Kobasew was good early on and hopefully will be good once he returns from his injury.

Adams could have been replaced with someone else but you can't look at it like he's salary prevented the team from signing a $1.8 million 3rd liner. Adams would have been needed to be replaced if he weren't re-signed so at most that would have saved about $100k or so in cap space. Nothing meaningful from cap management perspective. You can argue it from roster management perspective though if you think Adams is useless. I don't actually even mind having him there these days.

I fully understand that, but at the same time Kobasew is the only one of the three that proved remotely useful. Patrick did this for much of his tenure: just buy the cheap scraps and it was never useful. Even if you spend $1mm on a better forward it's worth it. Roster plugs gain nothing. If the player adds nothing its pretty irrelevant how little they make.

Letang will bounce back and prove himself worthy of that deal. I have lots of faith in him. He's a great player who's just struggling right now.

You have more faith than i do. I see a player with tons of talent that doesn't know how to use it. His offense may have gotten better but his mistakes have gotten worse and come more often. That's a terrible sign.

I would have liked to see Dupuis let go in the summer but Shero chose otherwise. It is what it is. Hopefully he'll get better or Shero can trade one d-man for a top-6 forward which would allow to put Dupuis in the 3rd line where he belongs.

He belongs on the 3rd line but you don't pay a 3rd liner $3.75mm. It's unlikely Dupuis will be dealt but you never know. Washington took Erat and gave up something for him in the process.

 

[Vujtek]

I fully understand that, but at the same time Kobasew is the only one of the three that proved remotely useful. Patrick did this for much of his tenure: just buy the cheap scraps and it was never useful. Even if you spend $1mm on a better forward it's worth it. Roster plugs gain nothing. If the player adds nothing its pretty irrelevant how little they make.

Except there wasn't cap room to sign slightly better guys for $1 million this summer. The drop in salary cap this summer made things very tight. Pens were over the cap all summer and basically would have been forced to deal someone (probably Niskanen) if it were not the unfortunate situation for Vokoun. You can blame Shero for that tight cap situation and making it worse by signing either or both of Scuderi/Dupuis or by not trading Orpik/Niskanen. But that was the situation and there was no room to give $1 million to someone instead of signing Kobasew or D'Agostini for league minimum.

He belongs on the 3rd line but you don't pay a 3rd liner $3.75mm. It's unlikely Dupuis will be dealt but you never know. Washington took Erat and gave up something for him in the process.

True. Dupuis signing looks brutal right now and wasn't a fan of it when it happened. Dupuis has still proven me wrong multiple times as I've been a doubter of his since he arrived in here. There's nothing else I can do that to hope he proves me wrong again and starts producing like he has the past few years. He owes it to Shero for setting him up for life financially.