Peak: Messier, Howe, Lindros, Trottier, Clarke

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Howe- 26 NHL seasons 1767 GP
Messier-25 NHL seasons 1756 GP

Justsayin

Howe - played most of his career in a low scoring era, with 70 game seasons.
Messier - played most of his career in the highest scoring era in NHL history with 80+ game seasons.

Peak Howe blows away the rest of these guys.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Howe- 26 NHL seasons 1767 GP
Messier-25 NHL seasons 1756 GP

Justsayin

Yes, Messier stuck around long enough to placate his ego and pass Howe for points but Howe was definitely a top level player for a much longer time during his career than Messier.

Howe was in the top 5 scorers in the NHL for 20 straight years which is just a remarkable accomplishment to go along with his physical play.

Messier ended up being a hanger on for a few years, in my opinion.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Howe- 26 NHL seasons 1767 GP--1850 pts
Messier-25 NHL seasons 1756 GP--1887 pts

Quite Similar? Justsayin

Howe played in a much lower scoring era, and continued on at a very productive pace in the WHA.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not quite understanding the rationale here for many having Messier at the bottom of their lists. Not very many forwards I'd choose ahead of him on my fantasy team. Six stanley cup rings. Only guy to captain 2 teams to a cup. 2 Hart trophies. Conn Smythe Trophy. Is Lindros and his 160pt peak season better than Messier and his 130pt peak season and being one of the biggest playoff monsters?

Lindros never came close to 160 points, nor was he ever "on pace" for that. I agree with you though in that I would take peak Messier over peak Lindros, because he was less easy to stop in the playoffs.

 

[oil4life97]

Lindros never came close to 160 points, nor was he ever "on pace" for that. I agree with you though in that I would take peak Messier over peak Lindros, because he was less easy to stop in the playoffs.

Yeah went back and looked it was 160 penalty mins. 115 was his peak.

 

[oil4life97]

Yes, Messier stuck around long enough to placate his ego

If Mess was such an ego maniac Why didn't he play another season to get the 12 games he needed to pass Howe in the GP department. Probably because he respects Howe a whole lot more than you respect Mess.

 

[lextune]

If Mess was such an ego maniac Why didn't he play another season to get the 12 games he needed to pass Howe in the GP department. Probably because he respects Howe a whole lot more than you respect Mess.

There is no doubt that Mess has/had enormous respect for Howe, but there is also no doubt that the career games and points similarity you brought up is next to meaningless when comparing the two.

Messier was top five in scoring 4 different times in his 25 seasons. While Gordie was top five for a mind-boggling 20 straight years, (including six Art Ross Trophies).

 

[oil4life97]

There is no doubt that Mess has/had enormous respect for Howe, but there is also no doubt that the career games and points similarity you brought up is next to meaningless when comparing the two.

Messier was top five in scoring 4 different times in his 25 seasons. While Gordie was top five for a mind-boggling 20 straight years, (including six Art Ross Trophies).

I totally agree about the points similarity, the amount of points Howe racked up in a low scoring era is simply amazing. I just think that Mess is totally underrated on these boards. In the top 100 thread he is 22? So the 2nd highest scoring forward(2nd most games played) ever in the NHL to go along with 6 cups and being one of the best Captains ever is only deserving of rank 22 in the top 100 players of all time? Behind players like Bobby Clarke? Not saying Mess was the best but should be closer to top 10 imo. I think general fans that didn't pay much attention to the oilers in the 80's feel that Gretz was the only reason the oilers were winning cups. If you look a little closer you'll see that Mess was awarded Conn Smythe in 84(oilers 1st cup) and also won cup as Captain and top scorer in 90 after Gretz was gone.

 

[seventieslord]

I totally agree about the points similarity, the amount of points Howe racked up in a low scoring era is simply amazing. I just think that Mess is totally underrated on these boards. In the top 100 thread he is 22? So the 2nd highest scoring forward(2nd most games played) ever in the NHL to go along with 6 cups and being one of the best Captains ever is only deserving of rank 22 in the top 100 players of all time? Behind players like Bobby Clarke? Not saying Mess was the best but should be closer to top 10 imo. I think general fans that didn't pay much attention to the oilers in the 80's feel that Gretz was the only reason the oilers were winning cups. If you look a little closer you'll see that Mess was awarded Conn Smythe in 84(oilers 1st cup) and also won cup as Captain and top scorer in 90 after Gretz was gone.

I'm a big Messier fan, but to get him into the top-10 you would have to prove he's better than Maurice Richard.... not gonna happen.

Before even getting to that point, you'd have to prove he's better than the likes of Mikita and Morenz.... a difficult task, to say the least.

 

[Derick*]

I think the current generation of young hockey fans is one in a perfect position to underrated Messier. I was born in 1989. I didn't start watching until 1996, two years after "we'll win tonight." My memory of Messier is the Canucks, Lays chips commercials, and the Sharks trading for the rights to him knowing he'll sign with someone else, so that they can get the compensatory fifth round pick.

 

[Bennie]

I'm really having trouble deciding between Clarke and Trottier. It comes down to the stretch of time you give to 'peak'. If it's just one season, well Trottier's Hart season surpasses any of Clarke's. If it's a stretch of three or four, you have to give it to Clarke.

Either way, it goes:
Howe
Lindros
[Clarke/Trottier]
Messier

I'd have to go with Clarke over Trottier. Clarke was better defensively and didn't have the luck of playing with Bossy & Potvin type players. Clarke was the leader and main offensive force of those broad street bully teams. His impact goes beyond stats. Arguably greatest leader captain in history. Definitely top 5

 

[Bennie]

Sakic and Messier were playoff monsters in thier peaks, while clarke never was. I pick joe sakic's hart season over any of clarke's seasons.

I will agree clarke wasn't a monster but he performed admirably. He played more of a leadership and defensive role during their cup runs. Parent was clearly the guy during postseason. Also McLeish & Leach outperformed him stats wise but Clarke was still maim offensive facilitator during those cup runs. He was the engine of all things for those teams.

 

[streitz]

Howe
Clarke/Trottier
Lindros
Messier

 

[Big Phil]

Howe...............is there anyone that doesn't have him #1?
Messier............did everything right, didn't have a weakness
Trottier................Think 1979 and then the dynasty
Lindros............way too short of a prime, too much missed time, great on a per game basis though
Clarke.................Someone has to be #5 here, but there is hardly a big gap between #2-5 anyway


I remember a poll done once by someone asking who was better at their peak between Lindros and Messier. I got the feeling the OP was making this poll because he assumed the unanimous choice would be Lindros, but it wasn't. I picked Messier and made a good case for it as did many others. Messier in 1990 gets my vote.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Old thread, those thread bumps creep me out.

Ignoring Howe I'd pick peak Trottier I think.He was the only one who brought everything.

 

[The Panther]

Howe is obviously #1. That's a no-brainer.

In that we're talking about "peak" only and not career value or whatever, I think maybe the other 4 are very close, but my tendency might be to put Bobby Clarke the lowest, though not by a lot. I mean, I guess if we look at his two seasons in a row from 1974-75 to 1975-76 then he's right there at the peak of all those guys's peaks (and had three Hart trophies!), but his scoring overall I think is a little less impressive than those other guys'.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

I'd have to go with Clarke over Trottier. Clarke was better defensively

Proof?

 

[tony d]

A 8 yr. bump but still a good topic:

Howe
Trottier
Lindros
Messier
Clarke

is how I'd rank their peaks.

 

[Thenameless]

Howe
Lindros

Clarke
Trottier

Messier

 

[koyvoo]

Howe
Lindros
Trottier
Clarke
Messier

 

[JackSlater]

Not so easy, other than that Howe is first. I think I'll change my answer from eight years ago.

Howe
Clarke
Trottier
Messier
Lindros

I'm high on Clarke lately and I think that his defensive edge makes up for the better offence that the non-Howe players bring. I also think that the peaks are close enough that I might as well put Lindros last as he has such a decent chance of missing time. Lindros ranks higher if we're just looking at each player's best day. It's also interesting to see how some posters' names have changed.

 

[Thenameless]

Not so easy, other than that Howe is first. I think I'll change my answer from eight years ago.

Howe
Clarke
Trottier
Messier
Lindros

I'm high on Clarke lately and I think that his defensive edge makes up for the better offence that the non-Howe players bring. I also think that the peaks are close enough that I might as well put Lindros last as he has such a decent chance of missing time. Lindros ranks higher is we're just looking at each player's best day. It's also interesting to see how some posters' names have changed.

I'm pretty high on Clarke as well. I give him a lot of points for being so well-rounded. Offense, check. Defense, check. Clutch, check. Leadership, big-time check - this smallish guy with Type 1 diabetes was not only the face of the Broad Street Bullies, but was their heart-and-soul.

I only have Lindros higher because I'm using his "best day version" that you alluded to. Fantastic playmaker, gifted goalscorer, and legitimately more intimidating than the rest, including Howe and Messier. Anyone can play dirty, but if we're only going to use legal hits and checks, Lindros cleans everyone's clock.

 

[The Panther]

I cannot really see putting Lindros (or Clarke, either, but at least there's a case there) over Mark Messier. How is that defensible?

You're saying his peak or "best day version" is higher...? But is it?

Scoring finishes:
Lindros: 1, 6, 7
Messier: 2, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10 -- his "2" is behind Gretzky, and Lindros' "1" is a tie (with Jagr) while Mario was injured.

I say Messier wins that comparison. But okay, Lindros was injured a lot, so let's see...

PPG scoring:
Lindros: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 6, 9, 9
Messier: 3, 3, 7, 7, 7, 8, 10, 10, 10

This is probably the best (only?) argument for Lindros > Messier... but then again, Mess's two "3's" move up to "1" if taking out prime-era Gretzky and Lemieux (Lindros also jumps to another "1" in 1997 by the same system). But Lindros has a lot of games missed for many of those finishes beyond his two biggest in '95 and '97. It's the Mario-Lemieux-factor, where I'm skeptical of whether he could have maintained those paces for a full season.

Peak season scoring:
Lindros: 115 PTS in 73 games / 97 PTS in 65 games / 70 PTS in 46 games / 79 PTS in 52 games
Messier: 129 PTS in 79 games / 111 PTS in 77 games / 107 PTS in 77 games / 107 PTS in 79 games

I guess these are pretty close overall, and (again) you can make a per-game peak argument for Lindros... BUT in reality Lindros had one 100+ point season and Messier had six 100+ point seasons (and another at 99).

Playoff peaks:
Messier wipes the floor with Lindros here. Never mind six Stanley Cups to zero in Cup-counting, but just in per-game stats: Lindros had a great playoff in '97 (led in points), despite being partly shut-down in the Finals. The same applies to Messier in, say, 1990... but Mess won the Cup as team leader and captain.

And then, you add on Mess's 1983 (amazing), 1984 (Conn Smythe), 1985 (solid), 1987 (amazing), 1988 (amazing), 1994 (legendary), and Lindros is left crying like a baby.

Major individual Hardware / All-Stars:
Lindros: 1 Hart, 1 Pearson, one 1st-team All Star, one 2nd-team All Star (three of those four apply to one season)
Messier: 2 Hart, 2 Pearson, 1 Conn Smythe, two 1st-team All Star (center), one 2nd-team All Star (center), + two 1st-team All Star (left wing)


Needless to say, Messier completely trumps Lindros in career value, but I understand that isn't the argument you're making.


So, in sum, I can maybe see the argument for Lindros over Messier (by degrees) in peak value, if by "peak" we're going to look at about two isolated (and non-consecutive) seasons... although even then, it's debatable. But be aware that if you're using that criteria, it should also affect the way you rank everybody else on your list (so, now, Mario Lemieux should be ahead of Gordie Howe, for example).

If we're looking at a full season + playoffs, did Lindros have even one season as good as Messier's in 1990? Obviously not, because Lindros was never 2nd in scoring, a Hart winner, playoff scoring leader, and Cup winner in the same season.

I think, when the peaks are quite close (as Lindros and Messier are), and the career value / winning / longevity / hardware of one guy (Messier) completely wipes the floor with the other, it's a bit silly to rank the first guy higher based on a sketchy "peak" argument.

 

[streitz]

1. Howe AINEC
2. Trottier
3. Clarke
4. Lindros/Messier
5. Messier/Lindros



Peak Lindros or peak Messier? IDK.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

1. Howe

2. Trottier
3. Clarke
4. Messier

5. Lindros