Peak Evgeni Malkin or Nathan MacKinnon right now?

[dirtydanglez]

That wasn’t Malkin’s best year, it was 11-12

yes i made a mistake there. i used his highest point total 08-09 and his highest production level 11-12 so he's getting the best of both worlds there and mack likely still comes ahead on both this season.

 

[Turin]

even if that were right mack still has the production edge and probably still beats the total points after adjusting for the scoring difference.

He would have the production edge by like less than a handful of points. Malkin won the scoring title that year by 12 points playing 5 less games than 2nd place. His only competition in the entire league was Crosby, who could only play 20 some games.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

even if that were right

It is right.

mack still has the production edge and probably still beats the total points after adjusting for the scoring difference.

Even only adjusting linearly that gives Malkin a 63 goal 138 point pace. Using the 27% factor, and that's 69 goals 152 points. Mackinnon is on pace for 51 goals 140 points.

And because he's playing with so many other great players, Mackinnon has a ton of secondary assists.

Look at their raw primary point numbers:
Mackinnon: 1.20 primary points/gp
Malkin: 1.32 primary points/gp

And that's before making any adjustments.

It's certainly close, but Malkin's edge is pretty clear.

 

[dirtydanglez]

It is right.

Even only adjusting linearly that gives Malkin a 63 goal 138 point pace. Using the 27% factor, and that's 69 goals 152 points. Mackinnon is on pace for 51 goals 140 points.

And because he's playing with so many other great players, Mackinnon has a ton of secondary assists.

Look at their raw primary point numbers:
Mackinnon: 1.20 primary points/gp
Malkin: 1.32 primary points/gp

And that's before making any adjustments.

It's certainly close, but Malkin's edge is pretty clear.

your 27% is just silly tho.

i do agree it's close, very close.

 

[Pukboy5kroner]

Yeah, he's definitely helped Nuke, but Nuke has also shown to be a late bloomer and a great player in his own right. I would take Mackinnon's supporting cast over Malkin's in 2011-12 every day of the week.

Nate is also a late bloomer.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

your 27% is just silly tho.

i do agree it's close, very close.

27% is literally the difference between 10th in the league in ppg in 2011-12 vs 10th today. If scoring is up 16% you'd expect the top scorers to be well north of 20% higher.

But like I showed, Mackinnon's numbers are inflated by secondary assists, driven by the elite talent surrounding him. Malkin didn't have that, but still piled up the points.

 

[Despote]

Also, scoring increases don't distribute evenly. Typically, top scorers get a larger benefit from incremental scoring benefits (i.e. a 14% increase in league wide scoring probably gives top scores a ~20%+ bump in production).

Example: 10th place in scoring this year is producing at 1.26 points per game vs 0.99 points per game in 2011-12, a 27% increase.

I think consideration that the competition at the top is simply better needs to be done. The gap shrinks to less than 18% when comparing the 20th highest points per game, which is much closer in line with the league wide scoring.

 

[dirtydanglez]

27% is literally the difference between 10th in the league in ppg in 2011-12 vs 10th today. If scoring is up 16% you'd expect the top scorers to be well north of 20% higher.

But like I showed, Mackinnon's numbers are inflated by secondary assists, driven by the elite talent surrounding him. Malkin didn't have that, but still piled up the points.

picking a single player isn't very accurate. besides the league is better now than in 2011-12. mackinnon faces much better competition.

 

[biturbo19]

Malkin. He was better, and also significantly more entertaining to watch.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I just don't think that MacK's responsibility for Nichushkin's improved stats is significant enough to mention because I saw Nichushkin get a lot better as a player while his stats were improving and I didn't see the same from Neal. When Neal left Pittsburgh, his stats reverted almost exactly to his Dallas days. Both were former Dallas players so I got tons of viewings, and I followed along closely with both after they left.

I'm confused. Are you saying Malkin had an impact on Neal but MacKinnon didn't on Nuke, because Neal's stats improved playing with Malkin, while Nuke only "got a lot better as a player" while playing with Mack. Or is Malkin > MacKinnon because Neal returned to being a 20+ goal scorer after playing with Malkin, while Nuke still plays with Mack?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Nate is also a late bloomer.

Malkin was 20 in his first NHL game. Nate was just a month past his 18th birthday in his.

Malkin's first 100+ point pace season, he was 21. MacKinnon's first 100+ point pace season, he was 22.

Of course, Malkin put up his first 100+ point pace (1.29 PPG) while playing 53 of his 82 games with Crosby, who scored at a 1.36 PPG pace after having 100+ point seasons in each of the previous two years.

MacKinnon put up his first 100+ point pace season (97 in 74) playing with a 2nd year Rantanen (39 points as a rookie) and Landeskog, who, I'm pretty sure we can agree, aren't at Crosby's level.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I think consideration that the competition at the top is simply better needs to be done. The gap shrinks to less than 18% when comparing the 20th highest points per game, which is much closer in line with the league wide scoring.

There's a lot more guys around the league today who are closer to the top guys than there were in 2011-12. Back then, it was Crosby/Malkin, then a step down to OV/Stamkos/Kane, then 2 or 3 steps down to everyone else. Today, it's McDavid, then a step down to Mack/Kuch, then another step down to the next tier of guys (Marner/Matthews/Rantanen/Pasta/Hughes/etc), then another step down to everyone else.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I think it was "tougher" to play, and there was much more physical play, because it was an era where lot of very good forwards battled against a lot of very good defensemen, with only a handful of elite scorers who could make even those very good defensemen look bad. Very few players in the league had elite level skating, so defenders could play tighter and more physical, without worrying about getting walked, which is why size became so important. Being 20 lbs heavier than someone who can't just walk around you is very beneficial, and the ability to do something like make an outlet pass becomes less important.

Today, defenders have to contend with some of the best skaters the NHL has ever seen, and playing tight and physical would be a stupid choice. As a result, we've seen a massive shift to a league where skating and skill matters more than just size. And if I have my choice of trying to skate around Dan Girardi with elite level skating, or skate through Sam Girard with more size, I think skating around Dan Girardi is going to be much easier and more effective.

Sam Girard lmao. The Avalanche might have 3 cups by now if he wasnt playing for them

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Sam Girard lmao. The Avalanche might have 3 cups by now if he wasnt playing for them

I don't know about all that, but I picked Girard because I couldn't think of anyone who should be easier to overpower. And yet I would still greatly prefer to skate circles around Girardi, if given that choice.

 

[StoveTopStauffer]

McDavid and Crosby are the only players above Malkin.

MacKinnon wouldn't even be in the discussion without a super team around him.

Guy is firmly 3rd best active player even with a super team.

 

[Crow]

Going Nate Dog here. Love watching him in the playoffs.

He is a much, much better playoff player. I voted for Malkin though. His peak during that time can’t be quantified with fancy stats. He was the best player in the world two years. I think he is overrated career wise but his peak is higher than Nate.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Peak Malkin in 2011-12 was pretty insane too. Haven't seen Mackinnon lap the league like Malkin did that year.

View attachment 842632

Crosby was also injured so that would be like removing McDavid from the equation today.

Still geno but very close

 

[Nadal On Clay]

MacKinnon is really having a tremendous season, but the only players who have been better at their best since he entered the league are McDavid, Crosby and Ovechkin. It could be argued that Malkin is ahead of both Crosby and Ovechkin in peak play, although I assume he would lose to both in polls.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

MacKinnon is really having a tremendous season, but the only players who have been better at their best since he entered the league are McDavid, Crosby and Ovechkin. It could be argued that Malkin is ahead of both Crosby and Ovechkin in peak play, although I assume he would lose to both in polls.

Not apples to apples at all, but awful comparison

Crosby was the player with the highest ppg every season from 2011-14 and he was injured
Whiskeys point was Malkin lapped the field production wise, but the player capable of putting up the most pts was injured. Today that is McDavid not makar or rantanen

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

11/12 or 2009 playoffs Malkin was better than any recent performance done by a player not named McDavid IMO

I still think Crosby was better in 2009. But we can debate that another time.

To be fair he is lapping the field outside of McDavid and Kucherov. Can't blame him for having so tough competition at the top this year.

Needs to be noted for sure. Crosby and OV have full healthy seasons in 2012 and Malkin’s ‘lapping the league’ season looks a lot like MacKinnon’s year in 2024.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I still think Crosby was better in 2009. But we can debate that another time.


Needs to be noted for sure. Crosby and OV have full healthy seasons in 2012 and Malkin’s ‘lapping the league’ season looks a lot like MacKinnon’s year in 2024.

Ovechkin was pretty healthy in 2012.

If anything, 2012 showed what Malkin would have been able to accomplish playing with the best weapons on his team more consistently.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Ovechkin was pretty healthy in 2012.

If anything, 2012 showed what Malkin would have been able to accomplish playing with the best weapons on his team more consistently.

Malkin played a little over half a season without Crosby, who everyone knew was coming back in time for the playoffs.

That’s entirely different than being ‘the guy’ that teams plan their entire defensive strategy around you. Teams played Malkin once or twice without Crosby.

 

[hairylikebear]

I'm confused. Are you saying Malkin had an impact on Neal but MacKinnon didn't on Nuke, because Neal's stats improved playing with Malkin, while Nuke only "got a lot better as a player" while playing with Mack. Or is Malkin > MacKinnon because Neal returned to being a 20+ goal scorer after playing with Malkin, while Nuke still plays with Mack?

Nichushkin's stat growth can be partially explained (mostly, IMO) by his growth as a player, while Neal's stat growth cannot be similarly explained.

If you don't think Nichushkin improved since getting bought out then I guess your opinion makes sense, though I still completely disagree.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I’d put them on the same level, just different skill profiles.

 

[hamzarocks]

Mackinnon peak is around malkin

His prime blows Malkin away

Malkin was too injured and inconsistent

2010, 2011, 2013 were terrible years for the 2nd/3rd best player in the world

Mackinnon 2018 - present has a better prime than Malkin from 2008-2016 period