News Article: [Paywall] The NHL is shifting to more of a skill-first league, have the Maple Leafs over-corrected?

[Morbo]

You used Marner as an example as a soft tiny player and he is far from it. So it was a bad example as he is not soft.

Your premise is that Look at tiny Marner weak as a kitten had 9 points in the 7 games. Is the way I read it. His example needs to be followed by our soft as Hell players.

No. my premise once again is that hits and having tough enforcer type players don't matter, look at Marner who was PPG+ vs. Boston being the tiniest dude on the team.

Lack of Polak and Martin is good not bad.

 

[Martin Skoula]

When you look at stats for hits between the 2 it doesn't really show the whole story. Boston's hits were more punishing and I would say wore is down more. Our hitting looked like we just bumped into them not really wearing them down. If you think not having at least a couple of guys like Simmonds, Ferland, tkachuk, Benn, wilsom, Anderso, Perry in his prime, etc wouldn't make a difference I think your delusional. Martin would have actually been a good fit on the 4th line for us this year with all the skill we have considering he would play with 2 skilled guys and he wouldn't hurt us being out there, he would be a good stop gap for the guys who have more skill with similar sandpaper. You need a nice blend of skill and grit and with that grit some toughness. We're missing it and we need it. It's part of the game and always will be and clearly it shows its needed in the playoffs.

Martin on the 4th line means one of two things:

1) Martin is out there hitting their 4th line - who cares?
2) Martin is out there against Bergeron/Krejci - we're screwed.

A Tkachuk type on the top line makes sense, acquiring one probably doesn't given that he'll cost way more than a normal 50 point player.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Not hard to understand... Tucker's was a beneficiary of Sundin in racking up points, just as Hyman is the beneficiary of Matthews, in racking up points.... Hits, crease etc... don't have anything to do with my point, though I'd agree with you on all of that...

Lol you're on drugs. Hyman isn't half the player Tucker was. Whatever your opinion is bunk but keep trying to tell me all Tucker did was tap in Sundin passes...

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Tucker is a good bud of mine. Please don't make me laugh with the Hyman comparisons.

No one is like Darcy. the guy has a stare that only Charles Manson can compete with.

But I will say, Hyman's goal in the playoffs was a thing of beauty. Hymie came through, the rest of the team didn't though. He did, compete very hard, I will not ever fault his for that series.

Darcy Tucker Shootout Goal

 

[LeafFever]

Only the Leafs could have an article like this written aboutthem.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

I agree fully.

You can't ice a team full of skilled waterbugs and think other teams won't expose your weaknesses.

Dubas is too young and naive at this time to understand the league will auto-correct and size with skill will always be the preferred team building strategy as size provides inherited advantage when it comes to winning puck battles. Physicality will always be a part of the NHL or we will soon be a figure skating league and teams will use their team toughness to force their will on small, soft teams to offset skill. I'm surprised Shanny a gritty player in his time and the exact style of player the Leafs lack today hasn't had more influence on his young GM or the Shanna-Plan doesn't have more teeth that can bite back on the roster.

Boston in last years playoffs made Matthews and Nylander invisible and irrelevant using size and toughness to nullify high-end skill. Instead of Leafs recognizing this they went even smaller and let all their few players with any form of grit in Komarov, Polak and Martin etc all go and are replacing them with Johnsson, Ennis and Carrick all players sub 6' and little to no intestinal fortitude.

Lou Lam with 30 years of experience quickly added Leo and Matt Martin to his NYI team understanding the importance of players with pushback ability or your skilled players will be intimidated and abused without retribution.

Babcock loves players that compete and can win puck battles and he will need more player personnel that allows his team to match up better against the opposition or its like bringing a Knife to a Gun fight and you will lose in the long run.

The premise is true, but to say Komorov, Polak and Martin adds to the style of Leafs play is a laughable joke to anyone who even watched this season.
Not the highlights.
Not the forum posters.
I mean actually watch the SEASON GAMES --- where Martin and Polak rack up penalties, and Komorov fan on shots and miss basic passes.
We need guys who have some offensive upside who can help out big 4, not Sean William Scott.

I'll eat crow if the Islanders make Komorov, Martin into an impact player. I ain't holdin my breath.
The stars are quick - Polak is gonna be an anchor.

 

[diceman934]

No. my premise once again is that hits and having tough enforcer type players don't matter, look at Marner who was PPG+ vs. Boston being the tiniest dude on the team.

Lack of Polak and Martin is good not bad.

You seem to be missing my point you are attempting to discredit Or ignore the fact that Marner had a very high compete level and then using his lack of size as some sort of look at Marner he is small and he had 9 points and we do not need players who are physical as that is simply wrong. We need players to all compete like Marner big or small and then we can compete when faced with a team that has physical players. We need to be able to compete no matter what type of game we find our self in.

No one in this thread have said we need inforcers other then you. We do need more buy in when playing in the playoffs as you have to be willing to fight for every inch of ice and to take checks to make a player otherwise we will win nothing. Being tough is not a size issue it is a desire issue and we have some players who need to step up in this area if we are to be s cup winning team.

 

[Liminality]

You seem to be missing my point you are attempting to discredit Or ignore the fact that Marner had a very high compete level and then using his lack of size as some sort of look at Marner he is small and he had 9 points and we do not need players who are physical as that is simply wrong. We need players to all compete like Marner big or small and then we can compete when faced with a team that has physical players. We need to be able to compete no matter what type of game we find our self in.

No one in this thread have said we need inforcers other then you. We do need more buy in when playing in the playoffs as you have to be willing to fight for every inch of ice and to take checks to make a player otherwise we will win nothing. Being tough is not a size issue it is a desire issue and we have some players who need to step up in this area if we are to be s cup winning team.

One way that desire issue or determination issue sometimes fixes itself is having the players age and mature. I'd love to see our team when they're all in their mid 20's.

 

[diceman934]

Darcy Tucker Shootout Goal

Pound for Pound he may have been the toughest player in the League. One thing is certain was he was among the meanest and he played for keeps. You can not teach that to a player either they have it or they do not. His compete level was off the charts. What a beauty.

 

[MattyNew91]

Martin on the 4th line means one of two things:

1) Martin is out there hitting their 4th line - who cares?
2) Martin is out there against Bergeron/Krejci - we're screwed.

A Tkachuk type on the top line makes sense, acquiring one probably doesn't given that he'll cost way more than a normal 50 point player.

The point is we need grit weather it be on the 4th line or top line or the backend we need it. I don't care who Matt Martin is hitting as long he's setting a tempo out there and bringing energy to the team and fans to get the team going but that's why I said he would be temporary. He serves a purpose by protecting our assets and he would be playing with skilled guys so he would still put up points. Who do you Ryan Reaves is out against. Not the top line I can tell you that.

 

[Menzinger]

Matt Martin is terrible, and there was good reason why he was a healthy scratch for 1/2 the season. You can’t just be a tough guy in today’s NHL, you got to actually do something with the puck.

 

[Menzinger]

weird, because little tiny Mitch Marner who we shouldn't have drafted had 9 points in 7 games.

must be his incredible physicality and hitting..."when the going gets tough, the tough get going"

It’s almost as if the Bruins shadowed their best defensive players on Matthews and Nylander, which really nullified that line - rest of the team benefited and wasn’t as physically intimidated.

Folks are acting like the entire Leafs team we’re scared in their sakes when it simply wasn’t he case.

Chara and Bergeron kept that Leafs first line out of the high danger scoring areas, but that suddenly doesn’t mean every player was lacking physically - as you rightly mention Marner was able to be just fine

 

[Fogelhund]

Lol you're on drugs. Hyman isn't half the player Tucker was. Whatever your opinion is bunk but keep trying to tell me all Tucker did was tap in Sundin passes...

It's amazing when people jump to conclusions, and formulate a response to something that wasn't written. Nowhere did I suggest Hyman is as good as Tucker... There was no comparison, or suggestion of such.

What was suggested, was that Tucker was a massive beneficiary of Sundin's brilliance, and similarly, Hyman is a massive beneficiary of Matthews. That isn't to compare either player, just to say that they both benefited greatly, playing with great Leafs Centers.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

It's amazing when people jump to conclusions, and formulate a response to something that wasn't written. Nowhere did I suggest Hyman is as good as Tucker... There was no comparison, or suggestion of such.

What was suggested, was that Tucker was a massive beneficiary of Sundin's brilliance, and similarly, Hyman is a massive beneficiary of Matthews. That isn't to compare either player, just to say that they both benefited greatly, playing with great Leafs Centers.

Ok make this bogus comparison a 4th time. First off Tucker never played even strength with Sundin. And Hyman isn't on the PP his 35 ish points are half luck half the skilled players . Just give up this lame narrative. Tucker contributed way more than Hyman ever will and a few PP points from Sundin means little.

 

[GoldenGOOSE]

Dacry is a good friend of mine, I think i could take him, but I would NEVER take him on. He just has that freaking look man. Good guy, three kids, doing well, working hard. Agent.

He loved playing for the Leafs btw.

Sundin was a good guy, most every guy on the team liked him, just to let y'all know. He was cool. Had huge talent, they all knew it. World class stuff he had. Domi was like his mafia host. Protected him huge. They are big friends, Mats had massive shot.


Inside tip? The big three like being in Toronto, so all is pretty well good.

Nylander especially. Go figure......

Swedes don't like the USA do your homework. Nylander and his father love Toronto.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I agree fully.

You can't ice a team full of skilled waterbugs and think other teams won't expose your weaknesses.

Dubas is too young and naive at this time to understand the league will auto-correct and size with skill will always be the preferred team building strategy as size provides inherited advantage when it comes to winning puck battles. Physicality will always be a part of the NHL or we will soon be a figure skating league and teams will use their team toughness to force their will on small, soft teams to offset skill. I'm surprised Shanny a gritty player in his time and the exact style of player the Leafs lack today hasn't had more influence on his young GM or the Shanna-Plan doesn't have more teeth that can bite back on the roster.

Boston in last years playoffs made Matthews and Nylander invisible and irrelevant using size and toughness to nullify high-end skill. Instead of Leafs recognizing this they went even smaller and let all their few players with any form of grit in Komarov, Polak and Martin etc all go and are replacing them with Johnsson, Ennis and Carrick all players sub 6' and little to no intestinal fortitude.

Lou Lam with 30 years of experience quickly added Leo and Matt Martin to his NYI team understanding the importance of players with pushback ability or your skilled players will be intimidated and abused without retribution.

Babcock loves players that compete and can win puck battles and he will need more player personnel that allows his team to match up better against the opposition or its like bringing a Knife to a Gun fight and you will lose in the long run.

This is one of the most condescending things I’ve read on here for a while. Dubas is too young and naive to learn that the game will auto correct? What about the countless GMs who haven’t figured out where the game is going? Let alone figure out where the game will be.

Why not let Johnsson play you know more than the few games he’s played without completely writing off his career, yes?

Not to mention physicality is more than just throwing around big hits or dropping the gloves to fight. Seriously.

 

[Fogelhund]

Ok make this bogus comparison a 4th time. First off Tucker never played even strength with Sundin. And Hyman isn't on the PP his 35 ish points are half luck half the skilled players . Just give up this lame narrative. Tucker contributed way more than Hyman ever will and a few PP points from Sundin means little.

You still can't read.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

You still can't read.

All you are typing is bs.

 

[Morbo]

This is one of the most condescending things I’ve read on here for a while. Dubas is too young and naive to learn that the game will auto correct? What about the countless GMs who haven’t figured out where the game is going? Let alone figure out where the game will be.

Why not let Johnsson play you know more than the few games he’s played without completely writing off his career, yes?

Not to mention physicality is more than just throwing around big hits or dropping the gloves to fight. Seriously.

Mess is reeling with the news that Hunter wasn't immediately snapped up as an NHL GM, a job by the way he was much more qualified for than naive greenhorn Dubas.

oops.

 

[supermann_98]

Even the uber skilled Red Wings of the 1990s, a complete anomaly for the era, featured its fair share of muscle, including our own President today. It's not the main ingredient to a winner, but it doesn't go all the way out of style.

A prime Shanny is exactly what our team could use.

Lots is people talk about Nylander and trading him for a young top 4 RHD, but I think our young D will figure that out organically and if I were to trade nylander it would be for a big physical top 6 wing. I’ll get roasted here but I’d listen to a deal for Nylander for a re-signed Mark Stone coming back our way in some sort of package, and I’m a big nylander fan

 

[Mess]

Mess is reeling with the news that Hunter wasn't immediately snapped up as an NHL GM, a job by the way he was much more qualified for than naive greenhorn Dubas.

oops.

I never wanted Hunter as GM ever (not sad to see him leave the Leafs organization), and I'm more than fine with Dubas as Leafs GM as he seems like a bright guy and promising future and very personable and seems like a team player where its not his way or the highway mentality.

My criticism/concern of Dubas currently is related to his inexperience at present, (nothing at all with the person nor the decision to name him GM by the Leafs (which I 100% support), because Leafs have major re-signings of their 3 Amigos and those numbers will impact the Leafs for the next decade if rookie mistakes are made by over-payment. So you seem to be conflating my feelings against the person when my posts are purely job performance related.

I like Dubas a lot, I just hoping he addresses and fixes Leafs glaring player personnel issues and holes in the roster to make the Leafs more Cup competitive, and know this upcoming season with Matthews and Marner still on their ELC will be Leafs best opportunity window for success.

Also rookie GM tend to make mistakes at the trade table, by either overpaying for talent and losing transactions and or being so overly cautious in fear of making a bad trade that they pass on the ones they should likely have made to improve the team.

Time will tell once we see his re-signings final contract #'s or his first major trade of a significant player and see if my concerns are warranted. The only way to get experience in the GM chair is time.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I never wanted Hunter as GM ever (not sad to see him leave the Leafs organization), and I'm more than fine with Dubas as Leafs GM as he seems like a bright guy and promising future and very personable and seems like a team player where its not his way or the highway mentality.

My criticism/concern of Dubas currently is related to his inexperience at present, (nothing at all with the person nor the decision to name him GM by the Leafs (which I 100% support), because Leafs have major re-signings of their 3 Amigos and those numbers will impact the Leafs for the next decade if rookie mistakes are made by over-payment. So you seem to be conflating my feelings against the person when my posts are purely job performance related.

I like Dubas a lot, I just hoping he addresses and fixes Leafs glaring player personnel issues and holes in the roster to make the Leafs more Cup competitive, and know this upcoming season with Matthews and Marner still on their ELC will be Leafs best opportunity window for success.

Also rookie GM tend to make mistakes at the trade table, by either overpaying for talent and losing transactions and or being so overly cautious in fear of making a bad trade that they pass on the ones they should likely have made to improve the team.

Time will tell once we see his re-signings final contract #'s or his first major trade of a significant player and see if my concerns are warranted. The only way to get experience in the GM chair is time.

Then why mention his age? Several GMs show they have no clue what they are doing and they are much older. Lou Lamoriello didn’t address said glaring issues for three years and he’s as old as Methsulah. GMs regardless of their age overpay. So lauding Lou for signing two players who were not helping the leafs overall (one grossly overpaid and one seen at he time and still at or sent as an overpay) while criticizing Kyle for being youn and inexperienced for the potential of doing so is incredibly ageist. Chiarelli makes crap tonne decisions all the time and he’s got loads of experience. So does Burke and he sucked. How many jokes do people crack at Benning’s expense?

How many mistakes has Fenton made? He’s been on the job as long as Kyle. How many mistakes by overpaying/underpaying via trades or contracts has Yzerman made?

 

[Morbo]

I never wanted Hunter as GM ever (not sad to see him leave the Leafs organization), and I'm more than fine with Dubas as Leafs GM as he seems like a bright guy and promising future and very personable and seems like a team player where its not his way or the highway mentality.

My criticism/concern of Dubas currently is related to his inexperience at present, (nothing at all with the person nor the decision to name him GM by the Leafs (which I 100% support), because Leafs have major re-signings of their 3 Amigos and those numbers will impact the Leafs for the next decade if rookie mistakes are made by over-payment. So you seem to be conflating my feelings against the person when my posts are purely job performance related.

I like Dubas a lot, I just hoping he addresses and fixes Leafs glaring player personnel issues and holes in the roster to make the Leafs more Cup competitive, and know this upcoming season with Matthews and Marner still on their ELC will be Leafs best opportunity window for success.

Also rookie GM tend to make mistakes at the trade table, by either overpaying for talent and losing transactions and or being so overly cautious in fear of making a bad trade that they pass on the ones they should likely have made to improve the team.

Time will tell once we see his re-signings final contract #'s or his first major trade of a significant player and see if my concerns are warranted. The only way to get experience in the GM chair is time.

I'm not conflating anything. greenhorn and naive were the words you have used.

And let's face it Mess...pretty much whatever contract the big 3 get is going to be a "rookie overpayment" -- as if Lou or Hunter could magically get these guys for less for some reason. I realize this won't stop you, but still.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I agree fully.

You can't ice a team full of skilled waterbugs and think other teams won't expose your weaknesses.

Dubas is too young and naive at this time to understand the league will auto-correct and size with skill will always be the preferred team building strategy as size provides inherited advantage when it comes to winning puck battles. Physicality will always be a part of the NHL or we will soon be a figure skating league and teams will use their team toughness to force their will on small, soft teams to offset skill. I'm surprised Shanny a gritty player in his time and the exact style of player the Leafs lack today hasn't had more influence on his young GM or the Shanna-Plan doesn't have more teeth that can bite back on the roster.

Boston in last years playoffs made Matthews and Nylander invisible and irrelevant using size and toughness to nullify high-end skill. Instead of Leafs recognizing this they went even smaller and let all their few players with any form of grit in Komarov, Polak and Martin etc all go and are replacing them with Johnsson, Ennis and Carrick all players sub 6' and little to no intestinal fortitude.

Lou Lam with 30 years of experience quickly added Leo and Matt Martin to his NYI team understanding the importance of players with pushback ability or your skilled players will be intimidated and abused without retribution.

Babcock loves players that compete and can win puck battles and he will need more player personnel that allows his team to match up better against the opposition or its like bringing a Knife to a Gun fight and you will lose in the long run.

Identifying a need and solving it are 2 completely different stories.

Martin and Komarov were drains on the team. Polak was meh for the most part and whatever toughness he provided was offset but other areas he lacked in. The Leafs truly won't miss them.

Dubas doesn't have much cap space to work with either and trades are hard to make. The team is also young and will naturally become tougher.

If anything as a team on the rise let's be thankful he didn't try to sign someone like Clarkson, Lucic, Ladd, Callahan like his GM counterparts did and handcuff the team for years with a bad contract.

 

[ponder]

I'm definitely concerned about our physicality. We had 4 big hitters last year - Leo, Martin, Polak and Borgman, and 3 of them are gone. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we aren't bringing back Leo/Martin/Polak, too ineffective outside of their physicality, but this team will definitely be soft.

I think finding a spot for Borgman will be key, he's a beast who hits very hard, and very frequently, while also being a decent 3rd pairing dman (much better breakout passer than Roman "icing" Polak). However, it's tough because he's an LD, and behind Rielly/Gards/Dermott. I'd love to see a trade along the lines of:

Gards + Brown + Carrick + 2019 1st
for
Tanev + Virtanen​

Which opens up an LD spot for Borgman, and brings in another big hitter (Virtanen). Our lineup would then be something like:

Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Marleau - Matthews - Nylander
Johnsson - Kadri - Kapanen
<Jooris/Grundstrom/Ennis> - Lindholm - Virtanen

Rielly - Tanev
Dermott - Hainsey
Borgman - Zaitsev

Andersen
McBackup​

Which would leave us in a decent spot, physicality wise, by opening up a spot for a big hitter (Borgman), and adding another (Virtanen). That's a team that's decently physical, while still very skilled, with a pretty reliable defence. With a move like this, my assessment of our hitters would be:

Hit hard and often: Borgman, Virtanen
Hit hard, but less often: Kadri
Hit a bit, but not that hard: Hyman, Kapanen, Marleau, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Dermott (and Jooris/Grundstrom, if either make it)