News Article: [Paywall] The NHL is shifting to more of a skill-first league, have the Maple Leafs over-corrected?

GoldenGOOSE

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Jan 14, 2018
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Tucker is a good bud of mine. Please don't make me laugh with the Hyman comparisons.

No one is like Darcy. the guy has a stare that only Charles Manson can compete with.

But I will say, Hyman's goal in the playoffs was a thing of beauty. Hymie came through, the rest of the team didn't though. He did, compete very hard, I will not ever fault his for that series.
 

Fogelhund

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Sep 15, 2007
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Hyman? Lol. Let's not forget you would take a beating hanging around the crease back in those days. Hyman has never thrown any hits as devastating as Tucks and he never will. Hyman hustles and digs but he's not at the level of grinder with offense that Tucker was. Never will be. Maybe I'm a bit biased tho ...

Not hard to understand... Tucker's was a beneficiary of Sundin in racking up points, just as Hyman is the beneficiary of Matthews, in racking up points.... Hits, crease etc... don't have anything to do with my point, though I'd agree with you on all of that...
 
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ACC1224

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I don't buy that. I don't usually play the blame game and I'm not here to bury either guy, but Gardiner and Andersen having terrible game 7's was a vast majority of why we lost. The Leafs had it, even with Bergeron and Chara shutting down Matthews.
Agreed, they were a big reason for the loss.
I've never meant that the entire series was lost because of one particular thing, just that in a series as tight as it was this one thing could have made the difference between winning and losing.
 

MattyNew91

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Jul 5, 2018
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When you look at stats for hits between the 2 it doesn't really show the whole story. Boston's hits were more punishing and I would say wore is down more. Our hitting looked like we just bumped into them not really wearing them down. If you think not having at least a couple of guys like Simmonds, Ferland, tkachuk, Benn, wilsom, Anderso, Perry in his prime, etc wouldn't make a difference I think your delusional. Martin would have actually been a good fit on the 4th line for us this year with all the skill we have considering he would play with 2 skilled guys and he wouldn't hurt us being out there, he would be a good stop gap for the guys who have more skill with similar sandpaper. You need a nice blend of skill and grit and with that grit some toughness. We're missing it and we need it. It's part of the game and always will be and clearly it shows its needed in the playoffs.
 

TML1967

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Jul 20, 2010
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Just wondering who people would have preferred we went after this off season?

Orpik 1x1, would be on our bottom pair but a veteran and cheap, I would be fine if he was the #7 guy.

Joel Armia 1x1.85 isn't tough but is 6'3, likely 4th line maybe 3W if he keeps d3veloping. He can play a decent 200ft game and skates well. I'd have preferred him over Jorris/ Cracknel.

JT Brown 2x1.375 is someone I'd have liked on the 4th line. 2015/16 showed if played properly he could be a solid 4W with a ton of snarl and compete. Would have prefered over Jooris/Cracknel

DSP 1x1 I know he was a RFA but I thought the money troubled Caps were gonna let him walk and I was excited. Always loved his cannonball style. Skates through guys, relatively talented (bottom 6 winger, if he was a 3W as a Hyman role I'd be ok)

I guess I just don't see many guys who have been signed this off season who fit the criteria who wernt either a) paid way too much money or b) way too much term

I'm ok going into the year without 'snarl' and maybe trading for it closer to the deadline with a bottom ranking team.

Maybe target someone like a Lawson Crouse if Arizona struggles? Big body, hits hard, works hard and at 21 is still young enough to be seen with potential offensive upside?
 
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Leafsman

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I just rewatched the "Game in Six" against Carolina. Jooris scored two goals. If he could play like that, he could be a good 4th liner with a little physicality.
 

Mess

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Well ironically, they beat Boston by playing a very heavy game against them, and many of their skill guys led the way: Point was fearless, Stamkos hit everything that moved to a comical degree, Killorn (their JVR equivalent) was a bulldozer, Stralman was his usually underrated chippy self, etc.

You basically need a total buy in to overcome the lack of physicality and size from all your guys.

The other half of the equation is you want to have guys on your team who can hurt the other team on routine plays. The more your grinders lay the body, the less healthy your opposition gets. The Pat Quinn era teams used to always take runs at Wade Redden, and by the end of the series he'd be out of gas and banged up.

Guys like Martin, Komarov and Polak are among the league leaders in Hits annually and Leafs top 3 in that category.

Wearing out the opposition in a long series starts paying dividends the longer and more physical the series becomes.

The reason Leafs defense makes so many mistakes in their own zone is teams dump the puck in and then Leafs defenders hearing fast charging forecheckers bearing down on the them to hit them causes turnovers as they attempt to avoid contact.. Gardiner and Zaitsev treat the puck as a hot potato to avoid contact with aggression Dzone give-aways etc.

You could count on 1 hand now the Leafs players that will deal out hits or cause turnovers by physical contact with Hyman (117 hits) and Kadri (94) leading the way.
 
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IBeL34f

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Jun 3, 2010
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Starting to get the sense that any decided focus on toughness by our management team would be the real over-correct here.

Most of our core players aren't anywhere near their prime yet, and simply lost to a more-experienced, better (at the time) Bruins club. The worst thing we could do right now is grow impatient with the natural development and progression of our youth and start sacrificing skill for grit/size/toughness - Add guys who can play your game, whenever you can and however you can, indiscriminately. Our game right now, is speed, skill, and smarts, and every single player on our roster should be able to fit into a system structured around those qualities. If someone can't do that, then they'll likely be a liability, whether they can throw crushing hits or not. If they can do that, and throw crushing hits, awesome - go out and get 'em, if the acquisition cost makes sense. In the meantime, I'd like to see us simply keep refining and defining our game, and make other teams bend to our will instead of going out and looking for players just to try and play other teams' games.
 

Morbo

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Guys like Martin, Komarov and Polak are among the league leaders in Hits annually and Leafs top 3 in that category.

Wearing out the opposition in a long series starts paying dividends the longer and more physical the series becomes.

The reason Leafs defense makes so many mistakes in their own zone is teams dump the puck in and then Leafs defenders hearing fast charging forecheckers bearing down on the them to hit them causes turnovers as they attempt to avoid contact.. Gardiner and Zaitsev treat the puck as a hot potato to avoid contact with aggression Dzone give-aways etc.

You could count on 1 hand now the Leafs players that will deal out hits or cause turnovers by physical contact with Hyman (117 hits) and Kadri (94) leading the way.

Did you actually just say that having Martin Komarov and Polak in the lineup is a good idea? And did you actually also just say that they're not a huge part of the problem defensively?

Have you watched the team at all Mess?? those guys paid precisely zero dividends with their so called physical play. they didn't intimidate anybody in large part because they can't keep up to the pace of the league anymore.

The Leafs problem is getting the puck out of their zone and going the other way with a completed clean pass. full stop. It has very little to do with hits or contact, but rather the hockey IQ and panic threshold to not throw the puck off the boards or glass in a blind attempt to get it out. Gardiner and his billion stretch passes per game are also a big offender, but at least he has some talent and could still be a useful player in an appropriate role.

never mind that hits are a stupid meaningless poorly-tracked stat to begin with.
 
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diceman934

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Why people are only focusing on the one series against Boston and thinking that was what we need to match when Boston was not near the best team in the league. They had a good season and I do not think they will match that season this coming year.

Looking at the rest of the playoffs with the amount of physical play we need our players to buy in and give a check and more importantly take the physical play and compete harder. We had to many players not participating against Boston when they were no where the toughest team in the league to face physical.

Our key players have to be willing to compete hard for every puck and to take a check to make a play. We can not afford to have players disappear physically and expect that we can win.

We do not need to go out and make major changes to the line up at all. We however need to have players held accountable for avoiding checks and for failing to compete all over the ice to help us win. Championship teams gets buy in from all members of their team. Blocking shots, taking checks, battling for every puck.

We are a very skilled team who have shown thus far to be far to easy to play against.
Drew Daughty said it best “the Leafs accept losing to easily” and he is 100% correct.

Our Coach has done everything in his power to poke and prod the current group of players to buy in and now it is up to them. If some of the same players fail to show up again look for changes following this coming season or perhaps even before.

We have a cup winning skill level team now we need for these playrer to compete like they want to win.
 
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Mess

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Last season Leafs were 26th in hits and already one of the softest teams and Leafs 3 biggest hitters Komarov + Martin (in 50 games) and Polak (in 54 games) were Leafs top 3 in hitting and finishing checks and all 3 are now gone .. 4th on the Leafs hit list was Borgman who only played in 48 games.

Without having replaced any of these players it will make the Leafs even easier to play against and essential just a skating team.

No sure where Leafs are going to find any push back ability, as the saying goes "when the going gets tough, the tough get going" but the fear will be the Leafs get disappearing like Matthews and Nylander did in last years playoffs.

Matthews went 1-1-2 points in 7 games not on talent but he was nullified by the Briuns physical play and Nylander was a ghost as you didn't even know if he was dressed in the series these top line players has so little impact on the series.
 
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meefer

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Why people are only focusing on the one series against Boston and thinking that was what we need to match when Boston was not near the best team in the league. They had a good season and I do not think they will match that season this coming year.

Looking at the rest of the playoffs with the amount of physical play we need our players to buy in and give a check and more importantly take the physical play and compete harder. We had to many players not participating against Boston when they were no where the toughest team in the league to face physical.

Our key players have to be willing to compete hard for every puck and to take a check to make a play. We can not afford to have players disappear physically and expect that we can win.

We do not need to go out and make major changes to the line up at all. We however need to have players held accountable for avoiding checks and for failing to compete all over the ice to help us win. Championship teams gets buy in from all members of their team. Blocking shots, taking checks, battling for every puck.

We are a very skilled team who have shown thus far to be far to easy to play against.
Drew Daughty said it best “the Leafs accept losing to easily” and he is 100% correct.

Our Coach has done everything in his power to poke and prod the current group of players to buy in and now it is up to them. If some of the same players fail to show up again look for changes following this coming season or perhaps even before.

We have a cup winning skill level team now we need for these playrer to compete like they want to win.

This is the one area in which I think the signing of Tavares will have a greater impact than has been previously discussed. Certainly, Martin/Komy and Polak were our most aggressive players, but none had the 'juice' to get the team to follow their leads. Marleau, while a positive influence, doesn't present that either, imo and while Kadri might, his production and occasional 'doh' moments leave him in a secondary role when it comes to holding team members accountable. With all due credit to Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Gardiner/Rielly, they're either too young, or do not have the 'cred' to lead in that fashion, at least to this point in their careers. Tavares does. I believe his influence in the room will largely be seen in the level of compete that the rest of the team offers. He's played at the highest levels, he's succeeded, he's committed to the program and he's in his prime. Where he leads, others will be forced to follow and as the room's identity shifts from "accepting losing too easily" to understanding that talent alone is not enough, we'll begin to see a Leaf team that is scrappier and more willing to compete on a nightly basis. It might start slowly, but as the season rolls along players will be watching Tavares's efforts and will be inspired or shamed by them into being more accountable for their own efforts. He's played with the best, he is one of the best and by signing here we know he wants to win. He won't accept a weak effort and I suspect he'll be chatting with those who won't get on board with the demands of being a true contender for the Cup. Don't be surprised if you see a different team in January/February than we see in October; either by way of effort or trades.
 

Morbo

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Last season Leafs were 26th in hits and already one of the softest teams and Leafs 3 biggest hitters Komarov + Martin (in 50 games) and Polak (in 54 games) were Leafs top 3 in hitting and finishing checks and all 3 are now gone .. 4th on the Leafs hit list was Borgman who only played in 48 games.

Without having replaced any of these players it will make the Leafs even easier to play against and essential just a skating team.

No sure where Leafs are going to find any push back ability, as the saying goes "when the going gets tough, the tough get going" but the fear will be the Leafs get disappearing like Matthews and Nylander did in last years playoffs.

Matthews went 1-1-2 points in 7 games not on talent but he was nullified by the Briuns physical play and Nylander was a ghost as you didn't even know if he was dressed in the series these top line players has so little impact on the series.

What pushback ability did the "3 biggest hitters" provide?

zip.

nada.

zilch.
 

Morbo

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Jan 14, 2003
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Last season Leafs were 26th in hits and already one of the softest teams and Leafs 3 biggest hitters Komarov + Martin (in 50 games) and Polak (in 54 games) were Leafs top 3 in hitting and finishing checks and all 3 are now gone .. 4th on the Leafs hit list was Borgman who only played in 48 games.

Without having replaced any of these players it will make the Leafs even easier to play against and essential just a skating team.

No sure where Leafs are going to find any push back ability, as the saying goes "when the going gets tough, the tough get going" but the fear will be the Leafs get disappearing like Matthews and Nylander did in last years playoffs.

Matthews went 1-1-2 points in 7 games not on talent but he was nullified by the Briuns physical play and Nylander was a ghost as you didn't even know if he was dressed in the series these top line players has so little impact on the series.

weird, because little tiny Mitch Marner who we shouldn't have drafted had 9 points in 7 games.

must be his incredible physicality and hitting..."when the going gets tough, the tough get going"
 

Liminality

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Oct 22, 2008
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What pushback ability did the "3 biggest hitters" provide?

zip.

nada.

zilch.

Komarov got hurt and couldn't take back his roster spot from Johnsson and Martin was scratched, no impact at all from them. I think Polak did fine in the playoffs for what he was supposed to do but he's still a weakness at RD when the Bruins pressured the right side. A spot that the Leafs need to improve on, maybe Carrick can help there.
 

Morbo

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Komarov got hurt and couldn't take back his roster spot from Johnsson and Martin was scratched, no impact at all from them. I think Polak did fine in the playoffs for what he was supposed to do but he's still a weakness at RD when the Bruins pressured the right side. A spot that the Leafs need to improve on, maybe Carrick can help there.

The point is none of the 3 are good enough to make our roster, and the team was called just as soft or lacking in pushback or whatever phrase you want to use when they were on it. They made no difference in a positive sense and we're going to see that this season.
 
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Its not your fault

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This is fixed by a trade, or Nash signing mid season. I am sure we do proper asset management before we go to add unlike Burke did Toughness and Truclence.
 

diceman934

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weird, because little tiny Mitch Marner who we shouldn't have drafted had 9 points in 7 games.

must be his incredible physicality and hitting..."when the going gets tough, the tough get going"
Bad example as he was one of a small few who was not intimidated and played hard battling for pucks and took and gave hits. We need others to do the same.
 
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Morbo

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Bad example as he was one of a small few who was not intimidated and played hard battling for pucks and took and gave hits. We need others to do the same.

bad example of what?

here we're being told we need a big tough team full of hitters like Martin and Polak, pointing to Matthews and Nylander's lack of production as evidence

meanwhile the tiniest guy on the team puts up a PPG+

It's a fantastic example of how wrong the oof ugh we need physicality bring back Polak argument is.
 

diceman934

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This is the one area in which I think the signing of Tavares will have a greater impact than has been previously discussed. Certainly, Martin/Komy and Polak were our most aggressive players, but none had the 'juice' to get the team to follow their leads. Marleau, while a positive influence, doesn't present that either, imo and while Kadri might, his production and occasional 'doh' moments leave him in a secondary role when it comes to holding team members accountable. With all due credit to Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Gardiner/Rielly, they're either too young, or do not have the 'cred' to lead in that fashion, at least to this point in their careers. Tavares does. I believe his influence in the room will largely be seen in the level of compete that the rest of the team offers. He's played at the highest levels, he's succeeded, he's committed to the program and he's in his prime. Where he leads, others will be forced to follow and as the room's identity shifts from "accepting losing too easily" to understanding that talent alone is not enough, we'll begin to see a Leaf team that is scrappier and more willing to compete on a nightly basis. It might start slowly, but as the season rolls along players will be watching Tavares's efforts and will be inspired or shamed by them into being more accountable for their own efforts. He's played with the best, he is one of the best and by signing here we know he wants to win. He won't accept a weak effort and I suspect he'll be chatting with those who won't get on board with the demands of being a true contender for the Cup. Don't be surprised if you see a different team in January/February than we see in October; either by way of effort or trades.
I agree with everything except saying Kadri has duh moments. His hit in the series was a great example of the NHL over reacting and wanted to set the tone for the playoffs. The player falls as he goes to hit him and he gets 3 games! Also the player had just hit our best player with a nasty elbow, sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Marner was our best player from Christmas onwards and the playoffs were no exception.
 

ACC1224

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bad example of what?

here we're being told we need a big tough team full of hitters like Martin and Polak, pointing to Matthews and Nylander's lack of production as evidence

meanwhile the tiniest guy on the team puts up a PPG+

It's a fantastic example of how wrong the oof ugh we need physicality bring back Polak argument is.

I don't believe Mess speaks for everyone.
 

diceman934

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bad example of what?

here we're being told we need a big tough team full of hitters like Martin and Polak, pointing to Matthews and Nylander's lack of production as evidence

meanwhile the tiniest guy on the team puts up a PPG+

It's a fantastic example of how wrong the oof ugh we need physicality bring back Polak argument is.

You used Marner as an example as a soft tiny player and he is far from it. So it was a bad example as he is not soft.

Your premise is that Look at tiny Marner weak as a kitten had 9 points in the 7 games. Is the way I read it. His example needs to be followed by our soft as Hell players.
 

Its not your fault

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I’d argue kadri is our current day tucker. Maybe not as physical or insane but much more skilled and built better for today’s game.
I agree its the Sundin-Mogilny's X2 that has everyone excited oh and then and then... Its exciting to be a leaf fan for sure!
 

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