Pavel Datsyuk or Joe Thornton

Pavel Datsyuk or Joe Thornton

  • Datsyuk

  • Thornton


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nowhereman

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Actually at his peak and for most of his prime he wasn't underwhelming in the playoffs. Over a point per game in 2008 and in 2009 he was injured but still played amazing for a lot of that run despite the stats. He had a few other dominant playoff runs where his team didn't go far as well, the narrative that he was usually underwhelming in the playoffs once he became an elite player is utterly false. I'm not sure he was better than peak Ovechkin but from 2007-09 I would've taken Datsyuk ahead of Crosby or Malkin. After that not so much.
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is no universe where I would even consider, for a single second, taking Datsyuk over Crosby and Malkin.
 
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authentic

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Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is no universe where I would even consider, for a single second, taking Datsyuk over Crosby and Malkin.

Only for the 2007-08 and 2008-09 seasons just to be clear, after that Crosby and Malkin were better. It was even extremely close in those seasons and Crosby was obviously better in 2006-07. A lot of people don't get how truly dominant he was, he was on their level atleast at his peak.
 

GreatGonzo

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Mostly because grinders don’t score 56 goals. I was using your own logic meaning players that hit and defend must be just grinders. We classify those type of players with talent as ‘power forwards’ generally. Grinders have a negative connotation that points you towards a 3rd/4th line role. Grinders just don’t get 1st line minutes with your best player.

That’s not what I’m saying at all, and you know that. You seem to be claiming that it was all Thornton that won him the rocket. It’s certainly possible without him he wouldn’t have won, but you don’t just luck into 50+ goals, and you certainly don’t luck into a rocket.

Pavelski’s best goal scoring season was actually on 2nd/third line. San Jose was running Thornton up top with couture taking the tough matchups. But you clealy know that right buddy ;)

I also like how you say I come around claiming superior knowledge and then do the same thing in the same sentence. Seems a little hypocritical does it not? The reality is one of us can claim it and the other just proved it. The public can see who is who.

Look man, you’ve got your opinion and nothing I say is going to change that. I just can’t be bothered to have an Internet argument all night over things that really don’t matter. Have a good one. This was about Thornton vs Datsyuk anyways, I picked Thornton happy days
Sure, but grinders aren’t usually put on the same line with generational playmakers. Again, before Thornton....Cheechoo played a bottom 6 checking line, hence why his style was very much like a grinder. Your taking the term as a negative. Quite frankly he didn’t last on the first line for more than a couple of seasons....I wonder why?


Pavelski wasn’t on Joes line when he scored 41 goals and 79 points? You sure about that?....he played a majority of the season with Burns and Thornton, while being a consistent winger for Thornton for many years now.
I’m not the one claiming Cheechoo wasn’t a product of Thornton, or that Thornton doesn’t make the players around him better.

Maybe don’t make comments without actually having knowledge of what we are talking about? Maybe don’t get so offended by the term “grinder?”
 
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GreatGonzo

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Actually at his peak and for most of his prime he wasn't underwhelming in the playoffs. Over a point per game in 2008 and in 2009 he was injured but still played amazing for a lot of that run despite the stats. He had a few other dominant playoff runs where his team didn't go far as well, the narrative that he was usually underwhelming in the playoffs once he became an elite player is utterly false. I'm not sure he was better than peak Ovechkin but from 2007-09 I would've taken Datsyuk ahead of Crosby or Malkin. After that not so much.
Datsyuk has one dominant playoff run to his name. With a few good ones, but his PPG is worst than Thornton’s.
 

TheMule93

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May 26, 2015
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It's really close. They're both the same tier of player - not quite as good as the Crosbys/mcdavids of the world (outside of maybe a peak season), but better than the standard elite 1Cs like Getzlaf, Seguin, etc.

My vote may not mean much as a biased wings fan, but I really do love Thornton and I think there is no wrong answer here.
 

streitz

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Sure, but grinders aren’t usually put on the same line with generational playmakers. Again, before Thornton....Cheechoo played a bottom 6 checking line, hence why his style was very much like a grinder. Your taking the term as a negative. Quite frankly he didn’t last on the first line for more than a couple of seasons....I wonder why?


Pavelski wasn’t on Joes line when he scored 41 goals and 79 points? You sure about that?....he played a majority of the season with Burns and Thornton, while being a consistent winger for Thornton for many years now.
I’m not the one claiming Cheechoo wasn’t a product of Thornton, or that Thornton doesn’t make the players around him better.

Maybe don’t make comments without actually having knowledge of what we are talking about? Maybe don’t get so offended by the term “grinder?”


Cheechoo was 3rd in scoring in both the regular season and the playoffs during the sharks WCF run in the 03-04 season. Considering it was his 2nd year in the league I honestly don't know what your point is.
 
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GreatGonzo

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Cheechoo was 3rd in scoring in both the regular season and the playoffs during the sharks WCF run in the 03-04 season. Considering it was his 2nd year in the league I honestly don't know what your point is.
Yes, with 47 points. Ekman was 2nd in points with 55...What’s your point?

Is that supposed to prove how great he was on his own? It doesn’t. Cheechoo was a good player, but he was never an elite player, or a great player in general. Those sharks teams were riding high on solid depth, and solid goaltending.
 

streitz

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Yes, with 47 points. Ekman was 2nd in points with 55...What’s your point?

Is that supposed to prove how great he was on his own? It doesn’t. Cheechoo was a good player, but he was never an elite player, or a great player in general. Those sharks teams were riding high on solid depth, and solid goaltending.

You said he was a 3rd liner. I don't care about Cheechoo but 3rd liners generally don't end up 3rd in scoring on a team.


Either way I'm sorry Thornton has been a weak minded choker his entire career, but he's never gonna win anything. For that he will always be derided. Maybe if he was mentally stronger he would win discussions like this against players he should be easily better then.


Datsyuk had some problems early in his career in the postseason but the guy was a winner, he played great D and managed to put a few good runs together. Thornton....well...
 
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authentic

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For the first 25 playoff games of Datsyuk's playoff career he was on the 4th line. In his 3rd season he had a bad playoff run, but that's also before he really took off as an elite player. After that he was one of the best playoff players in the league. From the first season after the lockout when he really broke out until his retirement season where he was old and playing on one ankle he had 101 points in 115 games. In this era combined with his defensive game that is elite and better than Thornton easily.
 
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Regal

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Ah, that's fair. Being a Canucks fan and given the timing, I always thought it might have been an Anson Carter type situation. I can see how Cheechoo would have made Thornton better as well though, shame his prime and career were ended so quickly from injuries. As a side tangent, its funny that Ottawa reportedly preferred him over Ehrhoff in the Heatley trade.



Yeah, I can see that I underrated Cheechoo in my previous post. I think it's a similar scenario (obviously with higher goals) to Burrows benefitting from the Sedins, but still being a good and useful player without them.

Off topic, but I still dont know why so many people thought he was a bum who the Sedins made. He had only 5 more goals and 5 less points that season than his previous career high
 

Regal

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And Datsyuks weren’t? His scoring took a huge leap in ‘06 and on......we can’t hold that against Thornton and act like Datsyuk wasn’t putting up big numbers in the same scoring era. His ‘09 season, There was 2.91 goals average. Is that really that big of a difference compared to 2006?

Thornton at least has great seasons before the lockout that we can go by. He had 313 points in 292 games from 01-04(4th overall among forwards. 2nd among centers). It’s not like he suddenly sprouted offensive talent. His ‘03 season was one of his best.

Not just that, but Thornton continued to produce even after scoring started to drop, and started becoming way more well rounded as well as continuing his level of playmaking.

And you talk about “easier to score.” He had Cheechoo and Ekman on his wings during his best years.....and was reviving a sharks team. If anyone had it easier to produce, it was Datsyuk.

How much easier it is is literally built into the adjustments. People aren't just indiscriminately taking off points from Thornton.
 

Frankie Blueberries

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Off topic, but I still dont know why so many people thought he was a bum who the Sedins made. He had only 5 more goals and 5 less points that season that his previous career high

It was only because it was during the twilight of his career - looking at his stats, he put up low numbers the seasons before and after his time with the Sedins.
 

Regal

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Mostly because grinders don’t score 56 goals. I was using your own logic meaning players that hit and defend must be just grinders. We classify those type of players with talent as ‘power forwards’ generally. Grinders have a negative connotation that points you towards a 3rd/4th line role. Grinders just don’t get 1st line minutes with your best player.

That’s not what I’m saying at all, and you know that. You seem to be claiming that it was all Thornton that won him the rocket. It’s certainly possible without him he wouldn’t have won, but you don’t just luck into 50+ goals, and you certainly don’t luck into a rocket.

Pavelski’s best goal scoring season was actually on 2nd/third line. San Jose was running Thornton up top with couture taking the tough matchups. But you clealy know that right buddy ;)

I also like how you say I come around claiming superior knowledge and then do the same thing in the same sentence. Seems a little hypocritical does it not? The reality is one of us can claim it and the other just proved it. The public can see who is who.

Look man, you’ve got your opinion and nothing I say is going to change that. I just can’t be bothered to have an Internet argument all night over things that really don’t matter. Have a good one. This was about Thornton vs Datsyuk anyways, I picked Thornton happy days

According to NaturalStatTrick, Pavelski played almost 50% of his 5v5 ice time with Thornton and scored 15 of his 22 5v5 goals while Thornton was on the ice and 32 of his 41 total goals was Thornton was on the ice.
 
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GreatGonzo

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You said he was a 3rd liner. I don't care about Cheechoo but 3rd liners generally don't end up 3rd in scoring on a team.


Either way I'm sorry Thornton has been a weak minded choker his entire career, but he's never gonna win anything. For that he will always be derided. Maybe if he was mentally stronger he would win discussions like this against players he should be easily better then.


Datsyuk had some problems early in his career in the postseason but the guy was a winner, he played great D and managed to put a few good runs together. Thornton....well...
That same team had Ekman second in points with 55. You really aren’t understanding how offensively weak those sharks teams were....

Weak minded? A Hart, Art Ross, and being the best playmaker of his generation. Wow, so weak....take your “expertise” somewhere else, all it’s coming off as is saltiness.
How much easier it is is literally built into the adjustments. People aren't just indiscriminately taking off points from Thornton.
they both benefited from the same scoring era. Only difference being Thornton having better seasons before the lockout.
For the first 25 playoff games of Datsyuk's playoff career he was on the 4th line. In his 3rd season he had a bad playoff run, but that's also before he really took off as an elite player. After that he was one of the best playoff players in the league. From the first season after the lockout when he really broke out until his retirement season where he was old and playing on one ankle he had 101 points in 115 games. In this era combined with his defensive game that is elite and better than Thornton easily.
ya....with BRETT HULL. Surrounded by tons of HOF talent. He was then put on the same line as Zetterberg. Nothing like Thornton had to do, which was carry a line/team into the playoffs.

I’m not debating on whether or not Datsyuk performed better in the post season. Zetterberg performed better in that same time frame though...having 9 more points and the same defensive abilities.....is he more elite than Thornton?
 

streitz

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That same team had Ekman second in points with 55. You really aren’t understanding how offensively weak those sharks teams were....

Weak minded? A Hart, Art Ross, and being the best playmaker of his generation. Wow, so weak....take your “expertise” somewhere else, all it’s coming off as is saltiness.

they both benefited from the same scoring era. Only difference being Thornton having better seasons before the lockout.

ya....with BRETT HULL. Surrounded by tons of HOF talent. He was then put on the same line as Zetterberg. Nothing like Thornton had to do, which was carry a line/team into the playoffs.

I’m not debating on whether or not Datsyuk performed better in the post season. Zetterberg performed better in that same time frame though...having 9 more points and the same defensive abilities.....is he more elite than Thornton?


The only salt I have concerning Thornton is how worthless he was for Canada in 2006 and to a lesser degree 2010.
 

Connor McConnor

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Pavel not close. Thornton excelled in one area, playmaking, whereas Pavel could do everything for his team.
 

GreatGonzo

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The only salt I have concerning Thornton is how worthless he was for Canada in 2006 and to a lesser degree 2010.
Very weird thing to be upset about and to judge a player for.....

Pavel not close. Thornton excelled in one area, playmaking, whereas Pavel could do everything for his team.
Except Thornton’s one area was better than everything else Datsyuk did.....

Thornton’s one area helped revive, and solidify a Sharks team as contenders. Earned him a Hart and Art Ross. And cemented his legacy as one of the best players of his generation and one of the greatest playmakers of all time.

Oh ya, wasn’t a bad goal scorer early on, as well as developing into a stud two way player over the years. He wasn’t some one trick pony. Just because he stuck to playmaking shouldn’t be held against him.
 

Connor McConnor

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Very weird thing to be upset about and to judge a player for.....


Except Thornton’s one area was better than everything else Datsyuk did.....

Thornton’s one area helped revive, and solidify a Sharks team as contenders. Earned him a Hart and Art Ross. And cemented his legacy as one of the best players of his generation and one of the greatest playmakers of all time.

Oh ya, wasn’t a bad goal scorer early on, as well as developing into a stud two way player over the years. He wasn’t some one trick pony.

That is all fair points but I go by what I saw with my own two eyes. I've watched both players pretty closely and always thought Datsyuk was the better player. Not to take anything away from Joe who was a damn horse in his own right but Pavel is easily one of the best hockey players I've ever seen with my own two eyes.
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Wings fan so I'm biased and initially thought Datsyuk.

Then I thought about it objectively when considering just their absolute peaks and leaned towards Thornton.

Then remembered Thornton's dive from Franzen's love tap and realized it's Datsyuk all the way. :laugh:
 

streitz

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Very weird thing to be upset about and to judge a player for.....


Except Thornton’s one area was better than everything else Datsyuk did.....

Thornton’s one area helped revive, and solidify a Sharks team as contenders. Earned him a Hart and Art Ross. And cemented his legacy as one of the best players of his generation and one of the greatest playmakers of all time.

Oh ya, wasn’t a bad goal scorer early on, as well as developing into a stud two way player over the years. He wasn’t some one trick pony. Just because he stuck to playmaking shouldn’t be held against him.


Ok so why out of all those strong SJ teams, why has Thornton never brought them the cup? On their 3 deep playoff runs, he was 1st in scoring in 2011, 5th in 2010 and 4th in 2016.


He's just a chump in big games. No offense to him, 1400 points in a low scoring era is a huge accomplishment but he's not a winner. Datsyuk had a certain intensity in his game that Thornton lacks.
 

Felidae

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How can you say his defense more than made up for his offense? Thornton’s peak of 125 and 114 points is better than anything Datsyuk did, and he ended up winning a scoring title and Hart. He also followed it up 96, 89, and 86 points. You also leaving out his ‘03 season hurts Thornton while benefits Dats, considering that was one of his best seasons, and another season he had better than Datsyuk. Datsyuk didn’t accomplish nearly as much as Thornton did. Also why are we adjusting the points to make it look closer? Seems bias to me...

You also fail to take into account that Thornton played more full seasons and longer than Datsyuk, affecting his PPG.
Datsyuk played only had one season where he played 70 games from 2011-16. So again, that benefits Datsyuk.


The season where Thornton had 7 goals and 50 points, he was 37 and battling knee injuries. He also had 41 points in 81 games at 19 years old playing bottom line minutes....so no it’s not very fair. There is a 5 year gap between Thornton and Dats. Thornton came on a struggling Boston team, where as Dats came to a stanley cup winner, full of HOFers....I feel you need to take that into context.

Primes? Thornton takes this pretty easily. From 02-10, he had 752 points in 626 games. That’s 98 points per 82. From 2011-16, he had 410 points in 452 games. That’s 74 points per 82.

Datsyuk had 613 pours in 570 games from 06-13(1.07). That’s 88 points per 82.

Is that close? Sure, but the difference maker is their peaks, where Thornton easily wins. But 10 points per season difference is a lot.

I used adjusted points because im aware 2005 and 2006 were the highest scoring years of the past 2 decades. I think that shows by the fact that Datsyuk's 2007 and 2008 seasons were increased while Thornton's 2 best San Jose seasons were decreased.

Yeah, that looks better. I didn't think my numbers looked right and was planning on changing them.

For the bolded though, I think that's somewhat unfair. Why not simply take those stats at face value instead of assuming they'll decrease? I agree it's more likely that they would (Though not by much) but it's equivalent to assuming Crosby would have maintained a 1.30 PPG through 2010-12. Does the evidence show it's likely? Yes, but from that Crosby vs Jagr thread you had qualms with me giving credit for something that didn't happen.

And for the record, Datsyuk's PPG was relatively consistent from 2010-2014. (1.05, 1.04, 1.03, 0.96, 0.82 not in that order)

I do think it's quite close though, it depends on whether you think the offensive gap outweighs the defensive gap.

Maybe assessing their playoffs could make the choice more clearer. But you'd have to look at team scoring and how much they led their team imo instead of the raw totals they produced.
 
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GreatGonzo

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Ok so why out of all those strong SJ teams, why has Thornton never brought them the cup? On their 3 deep playoff runs, he was 1st in scoring in 2011, 5th in 2010 and 4th in 2016.


He's just a chump in big games. No offense to him, 1400 points in a low scoring era is a huge accomplishment but he's not a winner. Datsyuk had a certain intensity in his game that Thornton lacks.
Define “strong”. See that’s he problem with many fans outside of San Jose, they don’t understand what was and wasn’t a strong team. They simply lost to better teams in 2010 and 2011, case closed. They weren’t “strong” at all in 2006-07, 2012-13, and 2015. And although they were great teams in 2008-08, and 2014, they weren’t good enough to beat the others.

Again, your analysis on the situation shouldn’t be taken seriously. “He’s a chump in big games.” And Datsyuk is the hero? I don’t understand that logic. Thornton has had his fair share of failures in the post season, the biggest difference is Dats had an ELITE team around him for the most part.

By the way, Thornton beat the wings in 2010 and 2011 with 14 points in 12 games. Including.

Datsyuk could barely handle the playoff grind early on. He struggled up until the 08 playoffs.
 

streitz

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Define “strong”. See that’s he problem with many fans outside of San Jose, they don’t understand what was and wasn’t a strong team. They simply lost to better teams in 2010 and 2011, case closed. They weren’t “strong” at all in 2006-07, 2012-13, and 2015. And although they were great teams in 2008-08, and 2014, they weren’t good enough to beat the others.

Again, your analysis on the situation shouldn’t be taken seriously. “He’s a chump in big games.” And Datsyuk is the hero? I don’t understand that logic. Thornton has had his fair share of failures in the post season, the biggest difference is Dats had an ELITE team around him for the most part.

By the way, Thornton beat the wings in 2010 and 2011 with 14 points in 12 games. Including.

Datsyuk could barely handle the playoff grind early on. He struggled up until the 08 playoffs.


Dats was 2nd in wings scoring during their WCF finals run in 2007.



Please do your research before making such claims ;)
 

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