Pavel Datsyuk or Joe Thornton

[theVladiator]

I refuse to vote. When two of my favorites and most underappreciated players of all time (in my opinion) are pitted against each other I do not take sides.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Its not a question who's offensive production was better but I'm biased and would rather watch Datsyuk.

 

[Big Cactus]

Thornton, for all of the reasons listed here already. The guy made Cheechoo a Richard winner ffs.

While I agree with what you’re saying, cheechoo gets trashed around here and I don’t get it. It’s no coincidence that Thornton had his best 2 seasons with him on the wing. He was a hell of a player. Unfortunately 2 hernias and a knee surgery will kill any career. Especially for a player who didn’t exatly fly out there to begin with.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

While I agree with what you’re saying, cheechoo gets trashed around here and I don’t get it. It’s no coincidence that Thornton had his best 2 seasons with him on the wing. He was a hell of a player. Unfortunately 2 hernias and a knee surgery will kill any career. Especially for a player who didn’t exatly fly out there to begin with.

I agree - Cheechoo isn't as bad as people make him out to be. Having four consecutive 20+ goal seasons obviously takes talent.

While this is based on pure speculation, I heard some of his surgeries/injuries were self-induced based on his awkward skating style. It would definitely explain the knee surgery. I think without Thornton or an elite playmaker, Cheechoo is a ~25 goal guy in his prime. Thornton elevated him to 56 goals which is pretty crazy.

 

[Big Cactus]

I agree - Cheechoo isn't as bad as people make him out to be. Having four consecutive 20+ goal seasons obviously takes talent.

While this is based on pure speculation, I heard some of his surgeries/injuries were self-induced based on his awkward skating style. It would definitely explain the knee surgery. I think without Thornton or an elite playmaker, Cheechoo is a ~25 goal guy in his prime. Thornton elevated him to 56 goals which is pretty crazy.

Yeah I doubt Thornton was able to more than double his goal scoring. By that logic Patrick Marleau should have been a 20 goal scorer. They didn’t always play together.

 

[nowhereman]

IMO when people were talking about who was better Ovechkin or Crosby I always wondered why Datsyuk was not in the question as I thought he was better.
He is one of those players that when you watch him play live you really get an idea of how good he is.
He may not have racked up the points like the others, but his defensive game probably prevented him for doing that. He was way better defensivly. If you are using stats to say that Thornton is better than Datsyuk, then you really don't know Datsyuk's game.

There was never an argument for Datsyuk over Crosby and Ovechkin.

 

[authentic]

I agree - Cheechoo isn't as bad as people make him out to be. Having four consecutive 20+ goal seasons obviously takes talent.

While this is based on pure speculation, I heard some of his surgeries/injuries were self-induced based on his awkward skating style. It would definitely explain the knee surgery. I think without Thornton or an elite playmaker, Cheechoo is a ~25 goal guy in his prime. Thornton elevated him to 56 goals which is pretty crazy.

Lol Cheechoo would've been more than a 25 goal guy in his peak years without Thornton, atleast 35+. He was a legit goal scorer and potted 28 in 2003-04 when the leading goal scorer had 41 and scoring was at an all time low. He easily scores around 40 from 2005 to 2007 without Thornton.

 

[authentic]

There was never an argument for Datsyuk over Crosby and Ovechkin.

Sure, if you don't believe Selke defense makes up 13 points in a season over average at best defense. Not to mention the less powerplay time, overall ice time and more defensive responsibility he had at even strength.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Lol Cheechoo would've been more than a 25 goal guy in his peak years without Thornton, atleast 35+. He was a legit goal scorer and potted 28 in 2003-04 when the leading goal scorer had 41 and scoring was at an all time low. He easily scores around 40 from 2005 to 2007 without Thornton.

“Easily?” There is no way you can just make that assumption. Cheechoo was a decent goal scorer, but he wouldn’t magically become an elite 40 goal scorer out of thin air without Thornton.

Cheechoo was a Grinder. Thornton made him the best goal scorer in the league.

Your overhyping Cheechoos abilities while downplaying Thornton’s. He made a career making good/average players into great ones.

By the way, Cheechoo had 7 goals in 24 games before Thornton came to town. That’s around 23-24 goals over an 82 game season.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Sure, if you don't believe Selke defense makes up 13 points in a season over average at best defense. Not to mention the less powerplay time, overall ice time and more defensive responsibility he had at even strength.

Why does Selke defense make up for that offense? Defense has become very overrated around here. There is a reason Datsyuk was never considered better, because he wasn’t. Both Crosby and Ovi did incredible things with less talent. That doesn’t take anything away from Dats, but a Selke doesn’t suddenly make him their equal.

Datsyuk was arguably not even the best defensive player in his team. Pretty sure Babcock had said that he used Zetterberg more in defensive situations and that he was the better overall defensive player. What is to say Zetterberg wasn’t the better player?

 

[nowhereman]

Sure, if you don't believe Selke defense makes up 13 points in a season over average at best defense. Not to mention the less powerplay time, overall ice time and more defensive responsibility he had at even strength.

You would honestly take Datsyuk over 65 goal, hits-like-a-freight-train Ovechkin, just because of defense? Or 120 point, playoff warrior Crosby? If Datsyuk and Crosby switched spots, Datsyuk wouldn't have had nearly the success he had. Crosby (along with Malkin) carried a team where Ruslan Fedetenko was the third leading scorer (with half as many points), while Datsyuk was usually pretty underwhelming in the playoffs (even with all of the Wings' talent).

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Yeah I doubt Thornton was able to more than double his goal scoring. By that logic Patrick Marleau should have been a 20 goal scorer. They didn’t always play together.

Ah, that's fair. Being a Canucks fan and given the timing, I always thought it might have been an Anson Carter type situation. I can see how Cheechoo would have made Thornton better as well though, shame his prime and career were ended so quickly from injuries. As a side tangent, its funny that Ottawa reportedly preferred him over Ehrhoff in the Heatley trade.

Lol Cheechoo would've been more than a 25 goal guy in his peak years without Thornton, atleast 35+. He was a legit goal scorer and potted 28 in 2003-04 when the leading goal scorer had 41 and scoring was at an all time low. He easily scores around 40 from 2005 to 2007 without Thornton.

Yeah, I can see that I underrated Cheechoo in my previous post. I think it's a similar scenario (obviously with higher goals) to Burrows benefitting from the Sedins, but still being a good and useful player without them.

 

[Big Cactus]

“Easily?” There is no way you can just make that assumption. Cheechoo was a decent goal scorer, but he wouldn’t magically become an elite 40 goal scorer out of thin air without Thornton.

Cheechoo was a Grinder. Thornton made him the best goal scorer in the league.

Your overhyping Cheechoos abilities while downplaying Thornton’s. He made a career making good/average players into great ones.

By the way, Cheechoo had 7 goals in 24 games before Thornton came to town. That’s around 23-24 goals over an 82 game season.

Using a 24 game sample size isn’t exactly a compelling argument. Nazem kadri had 1 goal in a 21 game stretch this year. He finished with 32. You can cherry pick any stat to suit your argument. The fact that you said cheechoo was a grinder means you probably never saw him play.

 

[Nashology]

Every person who votes Datsyuk is in here saying they are going by their heart or voting for Pavel even though they know JT was better...

why vote?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Using a 24 game sample size isn’t exactly a compelling argument. Nazem kadri had 1 goal in a 21 game stretch this year. He finished with 32. You can cherry pick any stat to suit your argument. The fact that you said cheechoo was a grinder means you probably never saw him play.

It sure shows more that he wasn’t going to get anywhere near 40 goals. Kadri also had 32 goals the year before. Is it the best sample size? No, your right. But it’s more evidence than him being this random 40 goal scorer without any reasoning behind it.

Cheechoos style was very much that of a grinder. He was physical, and had good defensive awareness. He played with guys like Ricci and Scott Thornton before Joe. I saw him play his entire, so you can’t BS your way out of this. You have no clue what your talking about. Your wrong, get over it.

 

[BeastoftheEast85]

I believe Datsyuk was generally a better player top few years of his prime, but gave Thornton the edge due to the higher peak and the sheer consistency and duration of his prime; from like 2000 until 2016 and he is still solid today.

 

[Big Cactus]

It sure shows more that he wasn’t going to get anywhere near 40 goals. Kadri also had 32 goals the year before. Is it the best sample size? No, your right. But it’s more evidence than him being this random 40 goal scorer without any reasoning behind it.

Cheechoos style was very much that of a grinder. He was physical, and had good defensive awareness. He played with guys like Ricci and Scott Thornton before Joe. I saw him play his entire, so you can’t BS your way out of this. You have no clue what your talking about. Your wrong, get over it.

Lol so in your would Jamie Benn is a grinder cus he’s physical and has good defensive awareness?

Obviously Thornton has a positive effect on cheechoo, just like cheechoo would have the same effect to Thornton. It’s cool cus when you put two good players together they help each other out. To think the cheechoo was a 20 goal scorer is just idiotic.

If Thornton is actually that good at making players better, shouldn’t San Jose be a Rocket Richard farm? Don’t remember Marleau, seto, Heatley, Hertl or any other winger doing what Cheech did. Do yourself a favour and watch some of the goals he scored in that era. Then you can claim to be ‘informed’.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Lol so in your would Jamie Benn is a grinder cus he’s physical and has good defensive awareness?

Obviously Thornton has a positive effect on cheechoo, just like cheechoo would have the same effect to Thornton. It’s cool cus when you put two good players together they help each other out. To think the cheechoo was a 20 goal scorer is just idiotic.

If Thornton is actually that good at making players better, shouldn’t San Jose be a Rocket Richard farm? Don’t remember Marleau, seto, Heatley, Hertl or any other winger doing what Cheech did. Do yourself a favour and watch some of the goals he scored in that era. Then you can claim to be ‘informed’.

I don’t understand your malfunction. What’s wrong with Cheechoo being labeled a grinder? That’s how he was deployed. That’s how he played. You seem to have this weird idea that he wasn’t, so what was he? He wasn’t speedy, he wasn’t particularly skilled. A majority of his goals were “dirty”, in Front if the net. Why your offended and seem to think you know more than me, and further try proving a point by bringing you Jamie Benn(lol), is beyond me....

I never said he wasn’t a good player, but definitely not a Rocket Winner without Thornton. Your giving way to much credit to Cheechoo. Cheechoo scored 37 goals and 69
Pints the following season with Thornton as well, who scored 114 points with another 90+ assists.....but that’s not Thornton’s doing still?

So that’s your standards? You can’t be THAT good of a playmaker unless you have a line of Rocket winners? Does that mean Backstrom is better than Crosby? That’s basiclaly what your saying. You don’t have to be a rocket winner to make the players around you better. Thornton made Pavs and Marleau elite goal scorers.

I’m a sharks fan, and I have been for many years. I know more than you when it comes to this topic with sharks players. But you seem to feel superior on your knowledge, even when it doesn’t make sense.

I feel you seem to be under the impression that I’m saying Cheechoo was bad. I’m not. But he still wasn’t going to be no where near the level he was without Thornton. He had his two best years WITH Thornton, while Thornton went on to have an 96, 89, and 86 point seasons without him. Yes what they had was amazing, their chemistry was great. But That doesn’t make Thornton less of a contributor to his success.

 

[bring back the jets]

Datsyuk, thornton was a beast for sure but im surprised this poll is even close.

 

[authentic]

You would honestly take Datsyuk over 65 goal, hits-like-a-freight-train Ovechkin, just because of defense? Or 120 point, playoff warrior Crosby? If Datsyuk and Crosby switched spots, Datsyuk wouldn't have had nearly the success he had. Crosby (along with Malkin) carried a team where Ruslan Fedetenko was the third leading scorer (with half as many points), while Datsyuk was usually pretty underwhelming in the playoffs (even with all of the Wings' talent).

Actually at his peak and for most of his prime he wasn't underwhelming in the playoffs. Over a point per game in 2008 and in 2009 he was injured but still played amazing for a lot of that run despite the stats. He had a few other dominant playoff runs where his team didn't go far as well, the narrative that he was usually underwhelming in the playoffs once he became an elite player is utterly false. I'm not sure he was better than peak Ovechkin but from 2007-09 I would've taken Datsyuk ahead of Crosby or Malkin. After that not so much.

 

[authentic]

Datsyuk, thornton was a beast for sure but im surprised this poll is even close.

Given how badly Datsyuk can get underrated on here I'm surprised it's not closer to be honest. even though it really shouldn't be.

 

[authentic]

Lol so in your would Jamie Benn is a grinder cus he’s physical and has good defensive awareness?

Obviously Thornton has a positive effect on cheechoo, just like cheechoo would have the same effect to Thornton. It’s cool cus when you put two good players together they help each other out. To think the cheechoo was a 20 goal scorer is just idiotic.

If Thornton is actually that good at making players better, shouldn’t San Jose be a Rocket Richard farm? Don’t remember Marleau, seto, Heatley, Hertl or any other winger doing what Cheech did. Do yourself a favour and watch some of the goals he scored in that era. Then you can claim to be ‘informed’.

Bingo. Saying Cheechoo was a great goal scorer in his own right shouldn't detract from what Thornton did, he put up 92 and 96 assists back to back, very few players in NHL history could manage that with a peak Ovechkin on their wing.

 

[authentic]

Every person who votes Datsyuk is in here saying they are going by their heart or voting for Pavel even though they know JT was better...

why vote?

Lol whatever you need to tell yourself to justify why Thornton is losing. This is one of those polls I'm glad HF got right.

 

[Big Cactus]

I don’t understand your malfunction. What’s wrong with Cheechoo being labeled a grinder? That’s how he was deployed. That’s how he played. You seem to have this weird idea that he wasn’t, so what was he? He wasn’t speedy, he wasn’t particularly skilled. A majority of his goals were “dirty”, in Front if the net. Why your offended and seem to think you know more than me, and further try proving a point by bringing you Jamie Benn(lol), is beyond me....

I never said he wasn’t a good player, but definitely not a Rocket Winner without Thornton. Your giving way to much credit to Cheechoo. Cheechoo scored 37 goals and 69
Pints the following season with Thornton as well, who scored 114 points with another 90+ assists.....but that’s not Thornton’s doing still?

So that’s your standards? You can’t be THAT good of a playmaker unless you have a line of Rocket winners? Does that mean Backstrom is better than Crosby? That’s basiclaly what your saying. You don’t have to be a rocket winner to make the players around you better. Thornton made Pavs and Marleau elite goal scorers.

I’m a sharks fan, and I have been for many years. I know more than you when it comes to this topic with sharks players. But you seem to feel superior on your knowledge, even when it doesn’t make sense.

I feel you seem to be under the impression that I’m saying Cheechoo was bad. I’m not. But he still wasn’t going to be no where near the level he was without Thornton. He had his two best years WITH Thornton, while Thornton went on to have an 96, 89, and 86 point seasons without him. Yes what they had was amazing, their chemistry was great. But That doesn’t make Thornton less of a contributor to his success.

Mostly because grinders don’t score 56 goals. I was using your own logic meaning players that hit and defend must be just grinders. We classify those type of players with talent as ‘power forwards’ generally. Grinders have a negative connotation that points you towards a 3rd/4th line role. Grinders just don’t get 1st line minutes with your best player.

That’s not what I’m saying at all, and you know that. You seem to be claiming that it was all Thornton that won him the rocket. It’s certainly possible without him he wouldn’t have won, but you don’t just luck into 50+ goals, and you certainly don’t luck into a rocket.

Pavelski’s best goal scoring season was actually on 2nd/third line. San Jose was running Thornton up top with couture taking the tough matchups. But you clealy know that right buddy

I also like how you say I come around claiming superior knowledge and then do the same thing in the same sentence. Seems a little hypocritical does it not? The reality is one of us can claim it and the other just proved it. The public can see who is who.

Look man, you’ve got your opinion and nothing I say is going to change that. I just can’t be bothered to have an Internet argument all night over things that really don’t matter. Have a good one. This was about Thornton vs Datsyuk anyways, I picked Thornton happy days

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Dats.

I'd pick him in the playoffs. Would pick him head to head.

Fear him more, would've wanted him on my team more.