Pavel Datsyuk or Joe Thornton
- Thread starter Filthy Dangles
- Start date
CanadienShark
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- Dec 18, 2012
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tony d
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StoneHands
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- Feb 26, 2013
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Thornton. I love Datsyuk but the numbers Thornton put up following the lockout are insane. Averaging over 100 points per 82 for a 4 year stretch while also being a good two-way player is amazing. During that time Thornton very much deserved to be in the conversation with Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin as the best player in the NHL.
IMO when people were talking about who was better Ovechkin or Crosby I always wondered why Datsyuk was not in the question as I thought he was better.
He is one of those players that when you watch him play live you really get an idea of how good he is.
He may not have racked up the points like the others, but his defensive game probably prevented him for doing that. He was way better defensivly. If you are using stats to say that Thornton is better than Datsyuk, then you really don't know Datsyuk's game.
StoneHands
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I do know Datsyuks game. We're not talking about some unknown guy here, we're talking about a superstar and one of the most popluar players in the NHL during that time. Quite literally everyone knows about Datsyuk's game. You can disagree with me all you want but the age old HF argument of "You obviously never watched him play" just doesn't work with a guy like Datsyuk.
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I see it like this and I'll do my best to explain it....
Thornton 'had the better prime' but Datsyuk 'was the better player in his prime', if that makes any kind of sense. Joe has the sexier numbers and the Art Ross but I believe Datsyuk was simply the better player everything considered.
Thornton 'had the better prime' but Datsyuk 'was the better player in his prime', if that makes any kind of sense. Joe has the sexier numbers and the Art Ross but I believe Datsyuk was simply the better player everything considered.
Felidae
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- Sep 30, 2016
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Peak goes to Thornton. He produced 20+ more points than Datsyuk's highest point total. If we use adjusted points, Thornton outproduces Datsyuk's best adjusted total by 16 points. Im not sure Datsyuk's selke win compensates for the offensive gap. especially since Thornton was 19th in selke voting himself.
If we're considering their entire prime, it's also quite close.
Datsyuk
Points
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]Selke finishes: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 5, 9, 13
Thornton
Points
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]Selke finishes: 5, 14, 19, 21, 28,31, 32, 36, 45
Personally, I think Datsyuk's elite defense more than makes up for Thornton's offense.
If we compare Thornton's San jose years (961 games) to Datsyuk's entire career(953 games). Thornton's PPG is 1.01, Datsyuk has a 0.96 PPG. That's a 4 point difference in 82 games.
It's true that I exclude Thornton's Boston years where he had a 100 point season and a few PPG seasons. But I also exclude his 2 worst seasons offensively where he produced 7 points in 52 games, and 40 points in 82 games, while also including Datsyuk's worst season at the start of his career. So I think im being fair.
If we're considering their entire prime, it's also quite close.
Datsyuk
Points
| 2007-08 NHL 97 (4th) |
| 2008-09 NHL 97 (4th) |
| 2012-13 NHL 49 (10th) |
Thornton
Points
| 2002-03 NHL 101 (3rd) |
| 2005-06 NHL 125 (1st) |
| 2006-07 NHL 114 (2nd) |
| 2007-08 NHL 96 (5th) |
| 2009-10 NHL 89 (8th) |
| 2015-16 NHL 82 (4th) |
Personally, I think Datsyuk's elite defense more than makes up for Thornton's offense.
If we compare Thornton's San jose years (961 games) to Datsyuk's entire career(953 games). Thornton's PPG is 1.01, Datsyuk has a 0.96 PPG. That's a 4 point difference in 82 games.
It's true that I exclude Thornton's Boston years where he had a 100 point season and a few PPG seasons. But I also exclude his 2 worst seasons offensively where he produced 7 points in 52 games, and 40 points in 82 games, while also including Datsyuk's worst season at the start of his career. So I think im being fair.
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NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
ohheyhemsky
Regehr DooDoo
Thornton had the points, but Datsyuk was likely the best 2 way player we've ever seen during his prime.
Dats.
Dats.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
Thornton for peak, prime, and consistency. None of that should be up for debate. Just because Datsyuk was better defensively doesn’t mean he was the better player.
I hate this idea that goes around that Datsyuk “sacrificed” offense for his defense. Dude scored 97 points and was a Selke winner. He didn’t sacrifice anything, he was 3 points from 100, you really think those 3 points were the difference between being more defensive? Besides taking Dats for that is being under the assumption that he could have been able to score more, and we have no clue if that would have happened or not. Datsyuk drove the play, and was a magician with the puck, while Thornton was a master playmaker and Quater backed the Sharks for a long time.
Thornton was better, and for much longer, and did it with much less. And it’s not like Thornton was a complete disaster defensively. He wasn’t a Selke winner, but a solid possession player and face off man.
Datsyuk was groomed into his position on the wings, starting by playing on the bottom line with Hull on his wing. He then worked his way up to the top line, playing on Zetterbergs wing a lot.
I loved Datsyuk, but his style tends to get people to think more highly of him. He was more skilled than Thornton no doubt, but overall Thornton was the better player. He just wasn’t as flashy, and didn’t belong to a juggernaut team.
I hate this idea that goes around that Datsyuk “sacrificed” offense for his defense. Dude scored 97 points and was a Selke winner. He didn’t sacrifice anything, he was 3 points from 100, you really think those 3 points were the difference between being more defensive? Besides taking Dats for that is being under the assumption that he could have been able to score more, and we have no clue if that would have happened or not. Datsyuk drove the play, and was a magician with the puck, while Thornton was a master playmaker and Quater backed the Sharks for a long time.
Thornton was better, and for much longer, and did it with much less. And it’s not like Thornton was a complete disaster defensively. He wasn’t a Selke winner, but a solid possession player and face off man.
Datsyuk was groomed into his position on the wings, starting by playing on the bottom line with Hull on his wing. He then worked his way up to the top line, playing on Zetterbergs wing a lot.
I loved Datsyuk, but his style tends to get people to think more highly of him. He was more skilled than Thornton no doubt, but overall Thornton was the better player. He just wasn’t as flashy, and didn’t belong to a juggernaut team.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
How can you say his defense more than made up for his offense? Thornton’s peak of 125 and 114 points is better than anything Datsyuk did, and he ended up winning a scoring title and Hart. He also followed it up 96, 89, and 86 points. You also leaving out his ‘03 season hurts Thornton while benefits Dats, considering that was one of his best seasons, and another season he had better than Datsyuk. Datsyuk didn’t accomplish nearly as much as Thornton did. Also why are we adjusting the points to make it look closer? Seems bias to me...
You also fail to take into account that Thornton played more full seasons and longer than Datsyuk, affecting his PPG.
Datsyuk played only had one season where he played 70 games from 2011-16. So again, that benefits Datsyuk.
The season where Thornton had 7 goals and 50 points, he was 37 and battling knee injuries. He also had 41 points in 81 games at 19 years old playing bottom line minutes....so no it’s not very fair. There is a 5 year gap between Thornton and Dats. Thornton came on a struggling Boston team, where as Dats came to a stanley cup winner, full of HOFers....I feel you need to take that into context.
Primes? Thornton takes this pretty easily. From 02-10, he had 752 points in 626 games. That’s 98 points per 82. From 2011-16, he had 410 points in 452 games. That’s 74 points per 82.
Datsyuk had 613 pours in 570 games from 06-13(1.07). That’s 88 points per 82.
Is that close? Sure, but the difference maker is their peaks, where Thornton easily wins. But 10 points per season difference is a lot.
On paper there isn't much of an argument for Datsyuk, but are you really asking why we would adjust points? Thornton's 2 best totals were in years it was easier to score. It's pretty simple.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
And Datsyuks weren’t? His scoring took a huge leap in ‘06 and on......we can’t hold that against Thornton and act like Datsyuk wasn’t putting up big numbers in the same scoring era. His ‘09 season, There was 2.91 goals average. Is that really that big of a difference compared to 2006?
Thornton at least has great seasons before the lockout that we can go by. He had 313 points in 292 games from 01-04(4th overall among forwards. 2nd among centers). It’s not like he suddenly sprouted offensive talent. His ‘03 season was one of his best.
Not just that, but Thornton continued to produce even after scoring started to drop, and started becoming way more well rounded as well as continuing his level of playmaking.
And you talk about “easier to score.” He had Cheechoo and Ekman on his wings during his best years.....and was reviving a sharks team. If anyone had it easier to produce, it was Datsyuk.
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VoluntaryDom
Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Big Cactus
Gud Pro
I’ll take the guy with back to back 90 assist seasons. Who knows when we’ll ever see that again.
When will be the next time we see back to back 4th in scoring and Selke Trophy combined? The 90+ assist thing largely depends on the league being very high scoring. I think Thornton from 2005-07 and Datsyuk from 2007-09 are extremely close, but beyond that Datsyuk was the better player and especially in the playoffs. Watching both at their best there it truly wasn't close who the better player was, Datsyuk was dominant and Thornton coasted.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
Kopitar was just 7th in scoring with 92 points...a Hart finalists and Selke winner. That’s closer than any player having 90 assists again.
Well Thornton scored more and achieved more during that time frame. Based on what? Wow that’s quite the observation. You were clearly just amazed by his flash, making him appear “better.” Datsyuk no doubt was a magician with the puck, and a beast defensively, but why does that make him better? Datsyuk is better in the playoffs? He has a .73 PPG.....Thornton has a .76 PPG. The difference is Datsyuk came into an already elite Wings team. He had a great run in ‘08, but outside of that, he has actually been the same as Thornton.
Thornton coasted? Wow was a well thought out analysis...Interesting. Would love to hear more about.
Frankie Blueberries
Allergic to draft picks
- Jan 27, 2016
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Thornton, for all of the reasons listed here already. The guy made Cheechoo a Richard winner ffs.
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