Paul Kariya/Leaving the Ducks for the Avs in the 03-04 Season

[Jim MacDonald]

Hey everyone!

Hope the weekend has gone well!

I wanted to ask you guys and gals about Paul Kariya leaving the Ducks for the Avs in the 03-04 season; Was it as simple as Selanne being his homey, they get on the phone and talk and basically say "let's reunite and go on this Avs team, it gives us the best chance to win a cup." Or was there more dynamics that maybe I don't know about? The Ducks go to Game 7 of the final the year before, have goaltending locked up with Giguere, a good, young coach in Babcock.....was money an issue? Kariya not get along with coaching staff/management? Just would enjoy being educated by you guys/gals as always. Look forward to it!-Jim

Click to read more...

 

[Terry Yake]

from what i remember bryan murray (ducks GM at the time) had to make kariya a qualifying offer of 10 mil to retain his RFA rights. murray's plan was to not make kariya the QO and instead sign him to a lesser contract and use the money saved to bring back selanne. so yes, they made it known that they wanted to play together again

so kariya decides to listen to other offers after murray makes his decision and instead took the largest paycut in NHL history to go play with the avs (along with selanne) on a 1 yr/1 million dollar contract. murray meanwhile used that 10 million he had left to bring in sergei fedorov. the part that made kariya public enemy #1 to ducks fans was the fact that he not only left for less money but that right after their SCF loss he had made a "promise" to ducks fans at an event saying something along the lines of "same time and place next year but different result."

the other part of this people forget is that kariya and the ducks organization hadn't really enjoyed the best relationship. he held out for 30 games in 97 while waiting for a new contract and his later contract negotiations didn't go so smoothly either. the ducks trading his best friend selanne to the sharks in march 2001 after they had told him he was safe also no doubt left a bad taste in his mouth. keep in mind that the ducks were pretty bad during this time, especially in 01-02 where kariya had his worst season. he re-signed with the team for 1 year before the 02-03 season and had a bounce back year. yes, the team made it all the way to the SCF but he was practically invisible the entire playoffs aside from his famous goal.

yes, ducks fans hated kariya for leaving but at least for me, the team winning the cup in 07 killed off any bad feelings i held towards him. the entire fanbase practically got over it years ago. from what i've heard the ducks organization had tried welcoming kariya back for a while but he was hesitant because he felt the fans still hated him and it wasn't until earlier this season that he finally accepted their invitation and they rightfully retired his number

 

[Albatros]

Kariya seemingly never had any interest in being the face of any organization, and as such Anaheim never was the perfect fit for him. In Colorado he could have a more quiet role with a better team, which apparently was more important than money at that point.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

from what i remember bryan murray (ducks GM at the time) had to make kariya a qualifying offer of 10 mil to retain his RFA rights. murray's plan was to not make kariya the QO and instead sign him to a lesser contract and use the money saved to bring back selanne. so yes, they made it known that they wanted to play together again

so kariya decides to listen to other offers after murray makes his decision and instead took the largest paycut in NHL history to go play with the avs (along with selanne) on a 1 yr/1 million dollar contract. murray meanwhile used that 10 million he had left to bring in sergei fedorov. the part that made kariya public enemy #1 to ducks fans was the fact that he not only left for less money but that right after their SCF loss he had made a "promise" to ducks fans at an event saying something along the lines of "same time and place next year but different result."

the other part of this people forget is that kariya and the ducks organization hadn't really enjoyed the best relationship. he held out for 30 games in 97 while waiting for a new contract and his later contract negotiations didn't go so smoothly either. the ducks trading his best friend selanne to the sharks in march 2001 after they had told him he was safe also no doubt left a bad taste in his mouth. keep in mind that the ducks were pretty bad during this time, especially in 01-02 where kariya had his worst season. he re-signed with the team for 1 year before the 02-03 season and had a bounce back year. yes, the team made it all the way to the SCF but he was practically invisible the entire playoffs aside from his famous goal.

yes, ducks fans hated kariya for leaving but at least for me, the team winning the cup in 07 killed off any bad feelings i held towards him. the entire fanbase practically got over it years ago. from what i've heard the ducks organization had tried welcoming kariya back for a while but he was hesitant because he felt the fans still hated him and it wasn't until earlier this season that he finally accepted their invitation and they rightfully retired his number

Terry thank you ever so much for this information. You educated me tremendously! The promise to Duck fans....the pay cut....Selanne being traded....all these dynamics.....I appreciate the feedback!

 

[JackSlater]

I believe another part of Kariya's contract (not his move to Colorado in particular) was that if you were a 10+ year NHLer and made below the league average, you became an UFA even though the age at the time was typically 31. Thus under the rules as they existed at the time, Kariya could sign a low end contract and become an unrestricted free agent two years early. I think that the rules changed with the lockout though.

 

[Big Phil]

I believe another part of Kariya's contract (not his move to Colorado in particular) was that if you were a 10+ year NHLer and made below the league average, you became an UFA even though the age at the time was typically 31. Thus under the rules as they existed at the time, Kariya could sign a low end contract and become an unrestricted free agent two years early. I think that the rules changed with the lockout though.

That is exactly what it was. Remember, unrestricted free agency didn't happen until 31 back then before the lockout. This is why Bobby Clarke would always threaten to have Lindros sit until he was 31, just out of spit. I would have loved to have seen a close up reaction of Bob Goodenow's face the second he heard about Kariya's signing.

I honestly thought they ought to just hand the Cup to Colorado. Even without Roy, that team was the odds-on favourite to win the Cup if they were healthy.

 

[JackSlater]

That is exactly what it was. Remember, unrestricted free agency didn't happen until 31 back then before the lockout. This is why Bobby Clarke would always threaten to have Lindros sit until he was 31, just out of spit. I would have loved to have seen a close up reaction of Bob Goodenow's face the second he heard about Kariya's signing.

I honestly thought they ought to just hand the Cup to Colorado. Even without Roy, that team was the odds-on favourite to win the Cup if they were healthy.

If you had magically healthy Forsberg/Kariya/Selanne then the team could probably outscore its problems, but Granato would still be there to make it questionable.

 

[The Panther]

Nice summary by @Terry Yake!

yes, the team made it all the way to the SCF but [Kariya] was practically invisible the entire playoffs aside from his famous goal.

I mean, he was 1 point from leading the team in scoring...

...the ducks organization had tried welcoming kariya back for a while but he was hesitant because he felt the fans still hated him and it wasn't until earlier this season that he finally accepted their invitation and they rightfully retired his number

Interesting. Kariya does seem a bit prickly and a bit sensitive to blows he took -- professional and physical -- during his playing days.

He certainly knew his own value as a player and demanded to be paid. In 1997, while sitting out, he was asking the Ducks for a three-year, $27 million contract. They instead settled on a two-year, $14 million deal, which paid him $8.5 million in the second year, making him the 2nd-highest paid player/season in history (behind Mario).


I remember having dinner with friends at our Grad.student dormitory in Vancouver when he joined the Avs. We were like, "Okay, Selanne and Kariya are on their second line...". I agree, it seemed like the Wings in 2001-02 when they'd basically already won the Cup before the season started.

 

[Terry Yake]

Nice summary by @Terry Yake!

I mean, he was 1 point from leading the team in scoring...

Interesting. Kariya does seem a bit prickly and a bit sensitive to blows he took -- professional and physical -- during his playing days.

He certainly knew his own value as a player and demanded to be paid. In 1997, while sitting out, he was asking the Ducks for a three-year, $27 million contract. They instead settled on a two-year, $14 million deal, which paid him $8.5 million in the second year, making him the 2nd-highest paid player/season in history (behind Mario).


I remember having dinner with friends at our Grad.student dormitory in Vancouver when he joined the Avs. We were like, "Okay, Selanne and Kariya are on their second line...". I agree, it seemed like the Wings in 2001-02 when they'd basically already won the Cup before the season started.

the ducks leading playoff scorer that season was petr sykora with a whopping 13 pts so that basically says it all. that team was all jiggy

and yeah, kariya was (and probably still is) very bitter towards the way his career ended because of concussions. he's a very quiet and reserved person which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way during his playing days. the complete opposite of his best pal teemu who is the most social and outgoing person you'll ever meet

 

[streitz]

Nice summary by @Terry Yake!

I mean, he was 1 point from leading the team in scoring...

He was outscored by Adam Oates who was like 41 at the time lol.

I only remember watching parts of their round against the Wings, parts of the cup final(it was boring) and even less of the WCF(it was even more boring) and I remember being severely unimpressed with anyone on that Ducks team not names Giguere. I was sort of pulling for them th0ugh because of Thomas and Oates, both of whom I always liked who were some of the ducks best players at 40/41 years old lol.

 

[Albatros]

Kariya had no protection, Stevens took him out in the cup finals and the Ducks bench reacted by looking like a bunch of scared rabbits.

 

[Eisen]

That is exactly what it was. Remember, unrestricted free agency didn't happen until 31 back then before the lockout. This is why Bobby Clarke would always threaten to have Lindros sit until he was 31, just out of spit. I would have loved to have seen a close up reaction of Bob Goodenow's face the second he heard about Kariya's signing.

I honestly thought they ought to just hand the Cup to Colorado. Even without Roy, that team was the odds-on favourite to win the Cup if they were healthy.

I'm not sure Goodenow was angry at that signing. It was crystal clear that he signed way under market value. Nobody could realistically bring up Kariya's contract in negotiations. And as far as I remember nobody did.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'm not sure Goodenow was angry at that signing. It was crystal clear that he signed way under market value. Nobody could realistically bring up Kariya's contract in negotiations. And as far as I remember nobody did.

i think the point wasn’t that any team could point to kariya’s contract as a comparison, but that in not signing what probably could have been the league’s richest contract, no agent could point to it in negotiations to raise the bar for lindros, sakic, jagr, etc.

as for 2003 playoffs kariya, i remember how invisible he mostly was. you’d watch and watch hoping he’d eventually do something awesome but it really felt like watching playoff markus naslund; super talented gamebreaker who just looked frustrated and miserable out there. he’d get a touch or almost get the puck and the play would die like someone rolling a boulder up a hill. if there was ever an anti-kariya coach, it was anaheim-era babcock. you could see a mile away there was no way he was coming back.

 

[Terry Yake]

i think the point wasn’t that any team could point to kariya’s contract as a comparison, but that in not signing what probably could have been the league’s richest contract, no agent could point to it in negotiations to raise the bar for lindros, sakic, jagr, etc.

as for 2003 playoffs kariya, i remember how invisible he mostly was. you’d watch and watch hoping he’d eventually do something awesome but it really felt like watching playoff markus naslund; super talented gamebreaker who just looked frustrated and miserable out there. he’d get a touch or almost get the puck and the play would die like someone rolling a boulder up a hill. if there was ever an anti-kariya coach, it was anaheim-era babcock. you could see a mile away there was no way he was coming back.

i wouldn't say there was "no way he was coming back"

if murray had made him the QO i'm sure he would have returned instead of taking a 9 mil dollar paycut. once murray decided not to qualify him and the avs came calling with an offer for both him and teemu, it was a no brainer

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i wouldn't say there was "no way he was coming back"

if murray had made him the QO i'm sure he would have returned instead of taking a 9 mil dollar paycut. once murray decided not to qualify him and the avs came calling with an offer for both him and teemu, it was a no brainer

ya, that’s fair. i guess a better way of saying what i meant wld have been, he was definitely going to find a way to be somewhere else for next season.

i’m curious though, as a ducks fan, how did swapping in fedorov and prospal for kariya and oates look to you?

on the one hand, you never want to shell out for a 28 year old guy coming off a career year. i know i thought you guys were doomed. otoh, if 2/3 of your top guns are sykora and a potentially rejuvenated fedorov—two guys who know their way around a wining defensive system, was there ever the thought that the mighty ducks could rinse and repeat with some young guys coming up and virtually the same group of lunch pail guys doing the defensive grunt work?

 

[Terry Yake]

ya, that’s fair. i guess a better way of saying what i meant wld have been, he was definitely going to find a way to be somewhere else for next season.

i’m curious though, as a ducks fan, how did swapping in fedorov and prospal for kariya and oates look to you?

on the one hand, you never want to shell out for a 28 year old guy coming off a career year. i know i thought you guys were doomed. otoh, if 2/3 of your top guns are sykora and a potentially rejuvenated fedorov—two guys who know their way around a wining defensive system, was there ever the thought that the mighty ducks could rinse and repeat with some young guys coming up and virtually the same group of lunch pail guys doing the defensive grunt work?

fedorov and prospal were both disappointments during their time in anaheim. fedorov's decline began that season and prospal was coming off a career season in tampa playing alongside vinny and MSL so obviously he wasn't going to match that in anaheim. but to be honest, the entire team sucked in 03-04.

the 02-03 ducks made key moves at the trade deadline bringing in ozolinsh, niedermayer, and steve thomas which really got them going at the perfect time and combined with giguere also getting hot at the right time, kickstarted their SCF run. they just couldn't get it going the next season

 

[Jim MacDonald]

I believe another part of Kariya's contract (not his move to Colorado in particular) was that if you were a 10+ year NHLer and made below the league average, you became an UFA even though the age at the time was typically 31. Thus under the rules as they existed at the time, Kariya could sign a low end contract and become an unrestricted free agent two years early. I think that the rules changed with the lockout though.

I follow this now after hopping on hockey reference to look at Kariya's career statistics, he's only 29 after putting in 10 years with the Ducks. I imagine, if my thinking cap is working correctly Jack, he's willing to take the low money on his last contract he signed with the Ducks because he could get out of dodge a bit younger (at 29) and go to a contender if the Ducks weren't a good team or for other reasons....very interesting!

 

[Hoser]

I believe another part of Kariya's contract (not his move to Colorado in particular) was that if you were a 10+ year NHLer and made below the league average, you became an UFA even though the age at the time was typically 31. Thus under the rules as they existed at the time, Kariya could sign a low end contract and become an unrestricted free agent two years early. I think that the rules changed with the lockout though.

Specifically if you had at least ten years experience and made less than league average you could elect to become a UFA. It was the player's choice to become a UFA; you could only do this once in your career. These were called "Group V" free agents.

The 2003-04 season was Kariya's tenth, the league average salary was about $1.8 million, and Kariya signed for $1.2 million with about $500,000 in potential performance bonuses; just enough to keep him under the league average threshold. That way, going into 2004-05, he would have been completely free to sign with whomever he wanted to at age 29. Two years early, like you said.

In retrospect he likely would have got a boatload of money from the Ducks. Not as much as the $10 million he was making in 2002-03, but probably more than the $1.2 million he made with the Avalanche and $4.5 million per year he made with the Predators.

 

[tarheelhockey]

To me this was very much like Sundin going to Vancouver. Just a very odd and drama-queenish end to the team/player relationship, creating a "what are you doing in that jersey" situation. It wasn't fun to watch that happen, even from afar.

 

[Brodeur]

In retrospect he likely would have got a boatload of money from the Ducks. Not as much as the $10 million he was making in 2002-03, but probably more than the $1.2 million he made with the Avalanche and $4.5 million per year he made with the Predators.

Kariya definitely left some money on the table. Making the bad assumption that the Fedorov contract could have been Kariya's, the Ducks paid 40 million for Fedorov over five years. First year was 10 million, second (lockout) year was 6 million, and the remaining three were 8 million. The lockout resulted in a 24% rollback on all salaries, so Fedorov's deal was reduced to a little over 6 million for the remaining three years.

It's always striking to me how quickly Kariya leaving happened. It was less than a month between his memorable SCF game 6 goal and him signing with Colorado.

It's too bad I didn't archive the email, but I remember contacting Calgary writer Eric Duhatschek circa summer 2005 when the new CBA was ratified. He wrote an article where he claimed that Colorado still had Kariya's rights but I tried pointing out that they had lost his rights in the summer of 2004 as a result of Group V free agency. I was surprised that he responded, but he remained steadfast that his "source" told him Kariya was still Avs property, but obviously Kariya signed with Nashville shortly thereafter. Me 1, Duhatschek 0. [/coolstorybro]

 

[tony d]

I remember that with him and Selanne going to Colorado. Really thought they would have done for the Avs than they did.

 

[Brodeur]

Selanne was kinda broken at that point, albeit at the time I don't think we knew it was as bad as it was. The lockout gave him time to have surgery and recuperate. Here's a couple comments from Teemu: Selanne Is Showing His Flash Has Returned

"My knee in 2004 was so bad, I couldn't skate," said Selanne, a four-time Olympian. "I decided after that World Cup that I'm never going to play like that anymore. There's no way. If the knee is not going to be as good as I want, I'll go play goal for somebody."

Selanne did not make an issue of the fact he was all but skating on one leg. He tried to act as if everything were O.K., but his pained expression gave him away.

"I didn't want to make a big deal about it, but it was really bothering me," Selanne said. "We did a couple of little procedures to try to buy some time. I knew every day when I went to practices that every stride was going to hurt. My left leg had no power. I couldn't use my speed. I couldn't play at the level I wanted to play. So you lose the passion and the fun."

 

[GMR]

Someone forgot to tell Kariya that Patrick Roy retired the previous year. Nothing against Aebischer, but you can't replace Patrick Roy.

 

[Big Phil]

i think the point wasn’t that any team could point to kariya’s contract as a comparison, but that in not signing what probably could have been the league’s richest contract, no agent could point to it in negotiations to raise the bar for lindros, sakic, jagr, etc.

as for 2003 playoffs kariya, i remember how invisible he mostly was. you’d watch and watch hoping he’d eventually do something awesome but it really felt like watching playoff markus naslund; super talented gamebreaker who just looked frustrated and miserable out there. he’d get a touch or almost get the puck and the play would die like someone rolling a boulder up a hill. if there was ever an anti-kariya coach, it was anaheim-era babcock. you could see a mile away there was no way he was coming back.

I remember thinking the same thing in 2003 too. I was thinking, "Hmmm, Anaheim is doing great but Kariya hasn't really produced a lot". That playoffs it was all about Giguere. I think people look at Kariya scoring the goal in Game 6 after the Stevens hit and figure that Kariya was playing at that sort of high level the entire series, but he wasn't. He didn't do a whole lot in any series.

2 goals vs. Detroit (although one was an overtime winner)
1 goal and 3 assists vs. Dallas
2 goals vs. Minnesota
1 goal and 3 assists vs. New Jersey (0 points in first 4 games, 0 points in Game 7, 1 shot on net)

He didn't have a lot of help offensively, but should he have been outscored by Adam Oates who was 40?

 

[Big Phil]

If you had magically healthy Forsberg/Kariya/Selanne then the team could probably outscore its problems, but Granato would still be there to make it questionable.

Could an incompetent coach even screw that up? I guess it could happen, but man that would have to be a colossal screw up. Imagine it is 2004 and you have these guys playing to the potential that they could at this point in their careers:

Kariya-Sakic-Selanne
Tanguay-Forsberg-Hejduk

Blake-Foote
Morris-Liles

Aebischer

Okay, goaltending is still a little suspect but I don't see anyone in 2004 beating them. Not Tampa, not a hot Calgary team either. Steve Konowalchuk would be a pretty good 3rd liner.
I guess after the first two lines it gets pretty thin after that, but they would hardly be the first team to win with two big lines. Plus their defense was still pretty good.

 

[streitz]

He didn't have a lot of help offensively, but should he have been outscored by Adam Oates who was 40?

Almost 41