Paul Coffey - Has Anyone Played on Better Teams or With Better Players?

LightningStorm

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Dec 19, 2008
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Reminds me of a conversation I had several years ago with my brother, who's only casually watched hockey on an on again off again basis. It was comparing the teammates of Bourque and Coffey, with them being the top 2 points leaders for d-men. Here's the top 13 scorers in NHL history at the moment, which has obviously changed in the several years since this conversation:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Jaromir Jagr
3. Mark Messier
4. Gordie Howe
5. Ron Francis
6. Marcel Dionne
7. Steve Yzerman
8. Mario Lemieux
9. Joe Sakic
10. Phil Esposito
11. Ray Bourque
12. Mark Recchi
13. Paul Coffey

As we can see, both are right outside the top 10. When comparing teammates they had in the top 10, Coffey played with six (Gretzky, Jagr, Messier, Francis, Yzerman, and Lemieux). This includes all of the top 3. He also played with Recchi, who's sandwiched between him and Bourque. What's more, all 7 of these teammates were in their primes, just like Coffey. On the other hand, Bourque only played with Sakic at the very end in Colorado. Also worth pointing out that Bourque often played big series against the top 10 scorers. He lost twice to Coffey's former Edmonton teammates in 1988 and 1990, and in the ECF in 1991 and 1992 to Coffey's Pittsburgh team.
 
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chrispw1

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Dec 5, 2015
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Larry Murphy had quite a few as well
Marcel Dionne
Rod Langway
Scott Stevens
Mike Gartner
Mike Modano
Mario Lemieux
Jaromir Jagr
Mark Recchi
Bryan Trottier
Joe Mullen
Ron Francis
Paul Coffey
Luc Robatille
Doug Gilmour
Mats Sundin
Dave Andrychuk
Steve Yzerman
Sergi Federov
Niklas Lindstrom
Igor Lirianov
Vlad Fetisov
Brendan Shanahan
Chris Chelios
 
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LuckyPierre

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Jul 1, 2010
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Alex Kovalev is a more recent case who played with several A-list players. Thing is, aside from the '94 Rangers, he didn't play on great teams. The Rangers got old fast, the Penguins had no depth and only one of Jagr or Lemieux while he was there, his second stint with the Rangers included the corpses of Lindros and Bure, Montreal and Florida had no HHOF talent, and he hurt his knee going into the playoffs his first year on a good Ottawa squad.

HHOFers or Future Inductions:

Mark Messier
Brian Leetch
Kevin Lowe
Mike Gartner
Glenn Anderson
Luc Robitaille
Wayne Gretzky
Pat LaFontaine
Jaromir Jagr
Mario Lemieux
Eric Lindros
Pavel Bure
Daniel Alfredsson
Erik Karlsson
Sidney Crosby
Evgeni Malkin
 

Yozhik v tumane

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I started wondering who with a long HHOF career played with the fewest hall of famers, and checked up Mats Sundin. He actually played with quite a few on his club teams. However, besides Sakic, maybe Gilmour, Joseph and Belfour, he hardly ever got to play with anything near the prime version of any great player. Some of the final and/or most banged up seasons of several of the following:

1 Joe Sakic
2 Guy Lafleur
3 Doug Gilmour
4 Dave Andreychuk
5 Mike Gartner
6 Larry Murphy
7 Curtis Joseph
8 Phil Housley (one game)
9 Ed Belfour
10 Joe Nieuwendyk
11 Brian Leetch
12 Ron Francis
13 Eric Lindros
14 (Henrik Sedin)
15 (Daniel Sedin)
16 (Roberto Luongo)

Edit: Should just note that I’m aware there are probably better examples than Sundin. Who did Marcel Dionne have, for instance? Likely missing someone, but I count Delvecchio, Vachon, Murphy, Shutt, Robitaille, Leetch and Lafleur.
 
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wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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Henri Richard played on better teams. Two dynasties as well as the 1970s pre-dynasty teams. Not quite as many HHOF teammates I imagine, but then again he played with most of them when they were in their primes and he never became a hockey nomad.


Sure but this isn't what the OP is asking.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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"Has anyone played on better teams" is what the poster is asking and Henri Richard did.


Sure but the thread title and OP are kind of awkward.

In the OP it looks like better teams and better players have equal standing but in the OP the focus is clearly on the better players question.

It also looks like most of the posters responding to the OP saw it this way in their responses as well.

As for the better teams part of the equation an even better answer than Henri Richard would be a player who had a short NHL stint but played on a SC team in their one or 2 seasons in the NHL.

It would also be trivial...I guess kind of like the thread question.
 

JackSlater

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Sure but the thread title and OP are kind of awkward.

In the OP it looks like better teams and better players have equal standing but in the OP the focus is clearly on the better players question.

It also looks like most of the posters responding to the OP saw it this way in their responses as well.

As for the better teams part of the equation an even better answer than Henri Richard would be a player who had a short NHL stint but played on a SC team in their one or 2 seasons in the NHL.

It would also be trivial...I guess kind of like the thread question.

The OP directly says -

Paul Coffey played on the three greatest teams of his era, and arguably three of the greatest teams of all time: the 1980s Oilers, the late 80s/early 90s Penguins, the early 90s Kings and the Mid-90s Red Wings. Is there anyone else in history who played on better teams? Here is a list of just some of the players he's played with:

Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Grant Fuhr
Glenn Anderson
Jari Kurri
Ron Francis
Jaromir Jagr
Mario Lemieux
Joe Mullen
Larry Murphy
Bryan Trottier
Mark Recchi
Luc Robataille
Rob Blake
Steve Yzerman
Dino Ciccarelli
Sergei Fedorov
Nicklas Lidstrom
Mark Howe
Slava Fetisov
Igor Larionov
Eric Lindros
Dale Hawerchuk
Doug Gilmour
Chris Chelios
Joe Thornton

The only question included in the post is - "Is there anyone else in history who played on better teams?"

So I have no idea what you are trying to go on about. Every other poster could say whatever they wanted but the thread title and the sole question in the original post would still ask if anyone played on better teams than Coffey did. Henri Richard played on better teams than Coffey did. I'm quite confident that what I said a year ago is relevant to the topic. I don't know what you're talking about with regard to a player who had a short career but won a championship or two but that doesn't really matter.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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The OP directly says -



The only question included in the post is - "Is there anyone else in history who played on better teams?"

So I have no idea what you are trying to go on about. Every other poster could say whatever they wanted but the thread title and the sole question in the original post would still ask if anyone played on better teams than Coffey did. Henri Richard played on better teams than Coffey did. I'm quite confident that what I said a year ago is relevant to the topic. I don't know what you're talking about with regard to a player who had a short career but won a championship or two but that doesn't really matter.


The focus of the OP in his original post (and let's for a second forget about the title thread) was on the number of great players Coffey played on moreso than the teams but if you read if differently then we will agree to disagree.

My last point was that if a guy only plays 2 NHL seasons or even 3 but all 3 times wins the SC it is a greater % of a career on great teams than Henri.
 

JackSlater

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The focus of the OP in his original post (and let's for a second forget about the title thread) was on the number of great players Coffey played on moreso than the teams but if you read if differently then we will agree to disagree.

My last point was that if a guy only plays 2 NHL seasons or even 3 but all 3 times wins the SC it is a greater % of a career on great teams than Henri.

The focus of the op and the thread is exactly what I talked about. You came along a year later and quoted my relevant post to say "Sure but this isn't what the OP is asking." when literally the only question in the original post is "Is there anyone else in history who played on better teams?". There is no other question posed. You could certainly say that the players that Coffey played with is relevant given the second part of the thread title and that teams are composed of players and I would agree, but again - the only question posed is if anyone played on better teams than Coffey did. Henri Richard played on better teams than Coffey did.

You were incorrect. You can either move on or keep digging but no amount of digging is going to make your incorrect post correct. Looking at the end of your post that I just quoted, when you talk about Stanley Cup winning percentage when that isn't particularly relevant, leads me to think that you should read the posts in question before replying again.
 

SCampo98

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"Has anyone played on better teams" is what the poster is asking and Henri Richard did.

Maybe a slight mis-wording on my end. The main goal of mine was to point out the players he played with, should've probably left out the whole team thing from the start. Still interesting to hear everything said though!
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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Maybe a slight mis-wording on my end. The main goal of mine was to point out the players he played with, should've probably left out the whole team thing from the start. Still interesting to hear everything said though!

Well, there it is then. Coffey fares a bit better in a player comparison than he does in a team comparison.
 
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Revolutionary

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Oct 12, 2020
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Coffey was a great skater but my goodness he stunk defensively. He was very fortunate to play on teams with a high octane offense as this generally saved his bacon from a lot of criticism. But man was he fun to watch at times!
 
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bleedgreen

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Smells like a criticize Coffey thread, probably because there’s just so much of it around here.

He’s exactly where he deserves to be on that list, other than Orr there’s never really been a better pure offensive defenseman in my book. I could care less about his defense.

He was absolutely blessed to be on those teams and his prime was equally well timed. GM’s went out of their way to trade for him, knowing how well he would click with players like these. He helped bring out the best of them just as much as it was the other way around.
 

Revolutionary

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Oct 12, 2020
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Smells like a criticize Coffey thread, probably because there’s just so much of it around here.

He’s exactly where he deserves to be on that list, other than Orr there’s never really been a better pure offensive defenseman in my book. I could care less about his defense.

He was absolutely blessed to be on those teams and his prime was equally well timed. GM’s went out of their way to trade for him, knowing how well he would click with players like these. He helped bring out the best of them just as much as it was the other way around.

Love me some Coffey! His offense certainly made up for a lot of his defensive shortcomings! I do think however that playing with the Oilers certainly boosted those insane numbers just a little bit. I prefer a guy like Leetch though. Similar player to Coffey, but more responsible defensively. Coffey was just a gaffe machine at times, but no doubt it's hard to argue anyone being a better offensive defenseman!
 

The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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I think Coffey deserves a huge amount of praise and he also deserves a small, but substantial, amount of criticism.

He seems to be a player who attracts a disproportionate amount of disrespect on this forum.

Coffey was quite clearly a player who played his position in an unusual way, and that in itself seems too much for some (close-minded, slightly) fans to accept. He was not a great defensive player by any stretch, of course. In his worst moments (many of which were with Pittsburgh), he seemed to have a very bad sense of when to gamble and when to play it safe.

But at the end of the day, does it really matter if a defenceman wasn't amazing at zone defence? Coffey was such an unusual player and such a unique talent that he did other things that 'normal' defenceman could not. For example, Coffey could intercept a puck in his own zone and zip out of the zone with the puck so quickly that his own team would suddenly get a great scoring chance.

Coffey could drive you crazy, as a fan, because of his occasional ill-timed gambles. But the stats and the record books clearly show that he got it right most of the time. This is all that matters. His teams won.

When he got to Edmonton, they were nothing, and three years later they won the Cup, including three out of four. Coffey nearly won the Conn Smythe vs. peak-Gretzky in '85, and he won back-to-back Norris trophies (and should have won three).

When he got to Pittsburgh, they were nothing, and three-and-a-half years later they were lifting the Cup.

When he got to Detroit, they were good, but just over a year into his stint they were 1st overall and then followed it up with a 132-point, 1st overall season. He also won the Norris in Detroit, 10 years after his first Norris.

When he got to Philly, they immediately went to the Finals for the first time in 10 years.


From 1981 to 1997, he was probably one of the "winningest" players in NHL history. He scored more goals in a season than Bobby Orr. He went +28 or better six times. He was a 1st or 2nd-team All Star eight times (more than Chelios or Robinson). He won four Stanley Cups and three Canada Cups.

'Nuff said.
 

Yozhik v tumane

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Jan 2, 2019
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Is there any player that was in team with NHL Mount Rushmore members (Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux)?

With all of them?

I thought that Mark Howe might have done it if you include international tournaments, based on how much praise he receives from Mike Keenan on the latter’s broadcast and knowing that he managed the 1987 Canada Cup team, but found out that Howe competed as a US national save for in the 1974 Summit Series (where only WHA players did compete, so he never played with Bobby Orr either). So Mark only shared teams with his papa, out of those four players. A bunch of guys have played with two of the four, perhaps someone has played with three, but I’d bet that no one has shared teams with all of them.
 

Voight

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I lied - one more. How about Brett Hull? I think he has the post-expansion record:
  1. Al MacInnis
  2. Joe Mullen
  3. Lanny McDonald
  4. Joe Nieuwendyk
  5. Doug Gilmour
  6. Bernie Federko
  7. Adam Oates
  8. Scott Stevens
  9. Brendan Shanahan
  10. Peter Stastny
  11. Phil Housley
  12. Guy Carbonneau
  13. Glenn Anderson
  14. Wayne Gretzky
  15. Dale Hawerchuk
  16. Chris Pronger
  17. Mike Modano
  18. Sergei Zubov
  19. Guy Carbonneau
  20. Ed Belfour
  21. Nicklas Lidstrom
  22. Steve Yzerman
  23. Sergei Fedorov
  24. Chris Chelios
  25. Brendan Shanahan
  26. Luc Robitaille
  27. Igor Larionov
  28. Dominik Hasek
Datsyuk and Zetterberg are both likely to make the Hall, so that would bring Hull up to 30.

The 2002 Red Wings are a goldmine for this type of trivia question.

Believe they have tied the 78 Pittsburgh Steelers for most HOF members on one team (10 players + Bowman). Will hit 12 when Datsyuk gets inducted eventually. Steelers had 10 players + HOF coach Chuck Noll.

Now that number gets bigger for both if you include owners Art Rooney + Mike Illitch.

& I could be wrong, but you include HOF GM Ken Holland, they surpass the Steelers.

Players only though, they have them tied for now.
 

Robert Gordon Orr

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Dec 3, 2009
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Is there any player that was in team with NHL Mount Rushmore members (Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux)?

With all of them?

I thought that Mark Howe might have done it if you include international tournaments, based on how much praise he receives from Mike Keenan on the latter’s broadcast and knowing that he managed the 1987 Canada Cup team, but found out that Howe competed as a US national save for in the 1974 Summit Series (where only WHA players did compete, so he never played with Bobby Orr either). So Mark only shared teams with his papa, out of those four players. A bunch of guys have played with two of the four, perhaps someone has played with three, but I’d bet that no one has shared teams with all of them.

Yes, Larry Robinson played with all of them. He was a teammate of Wayne Gretzky in LA and in the Canada Cup. He played together with Bobby Orr in the 1976 Canada Cup, and he was on the same All-Star teams (All-Star game) as Gordie Howe (1980) and Mario Lemieux (several times).
 

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