Player Discussion: Patrik Laine - MOD WARNING IN OP

[FinnJet]

You need to practice skating to become better at skating. Leg muscles would be one thing(And you do use different groups in different ratios for skating vs running), and the brain's nervous system's reconfiguration is another. That's the most important thing about "practice makes perfect", because doing something repetitively makes the brain more effective at managing it as the nervous system's connections broaden and become more focused. You for instance don't want too many of the nervous system's resources to go towards the useless running because there's a limited amount of nerve connections and that can take away from the ones used for skating.

It should be obvious... A top runner with a couple of weeks of practice won't be a top speed skater, and a top speed skater with a couple of weeks of practice won't be a top runner. Run to become better at running, skate to become better at skating.

Gym and explosion-specific training is of course important also but my biggest issue with Rautala is them running instead of skating. I don't think it's beneficial AT ALL to have to actually re-learn and to "get rid of the rust"(also known as the brain's nervous system's reconfiguration) as the season begins - It's much better if there's no rust to begin with and you've actually been improving at skating rather than having to initially work to get back to your original level.

The hardest and also the slowest process is to gain the muscle mass. But it's still something you just have to do first so you have something to build on with your up coming development. And Laine is at age when muscle training is most effect full, so in my opinion it would be stupid to put the focus of his training to skating technique or something else what he can learn after he has filled his frame.

 

[Ippenator]

The hardest and also the slowest process is to gain the muscle mass. But it's still something you just have to do first so you have something to build on with your up coming development. And Laine is at age when muscle training is most effect full, so in my opinion it would be stupid to put the focus of his training to skating technique or something else what he can learn after he has filled his frame.

Exactly what I have been already many times explaing here. This is something that should be understood by anyone who truly knows about what is the important foundation for good skating. People whom are expecting Laine to already do a lot of skating technique training or figure skating training are honestly a bit lost with what order you have to fix things with your skating, when the biggest weakness with your skating is especially weakish and naturally non-explosive legs, like Laine very clearly has had.

He will get to more of skating technique training and figure skating training when it is an optimal time for it with his training. Just some trust and patience is needed here. Always when you get impatient, just focus on thinking how everything went for Scheifele, Barkov or Granlund. A lot of explosive strength and stamina based training for several years and then after that clearly more focus on the skating technique by itself.

Without bigger injuries Laine should in a few years get at least close to the level that Barkov is as a skater. I’m confident in that. And when that happens he will be a very dominate player already. Just good to keep in mind that it will not happen already suddenly next season, but most probably in two or three years.

 

[Calendal]

I think it's better to wait with the skating technique training until he can devote sufficient time to it. If they require him to change his skating technique it's something he must be able to complete once started, you can't leave technique changes half-finished or you will just be worse off.

 

[Whileee]

I think it's better to wait with the skating technique training until he can devote sufficient time to it. If they require him to change his skating technique it's something he must be able to complete once started, you can't leave technique changes half-finished or you will just be worse off.

Getting on the ice and working on skating is never a bad idea. I think the main concern is that last off-season he didn't skate at all. NHL players need to improve during the off-season in all facets, and I think Laine needs to spend some time on the ice working on his skating and other skills, as most young star players do.

 

[ijuka]

I think it's better to wait with the skating technique training until he can devote sufficient time to it. If they require him to change his skating technique it's something he must be able to complete once started, you can't leave technique changes half-finished or you will just be worse off.

Skating as cardio and recovery training is very different from some skating technique rework or only skating all summer without any gym.

I don't see how 0 skating is better than some skating.

Ah, and it's possible to work on skating technique without "technique changes".

 

[Howard Chuck]

I'm still assuming that the Jets, any trainers in charge of the training, and Laine himself understand what is best for his development based on their timelines. Note, that may or may not include short circuiting any long term benefits in order to get better only for next year.

 

[Board Bard]

Exactly what I have been already many times explaing here. This is something that should be understood by anyone who truly knows about what is the important foundation for good skating. People whom are expecting Laine to already do a lot of skating technique training or figure skating training are honestly a bit lost with what order you have to fix things with your skating, when the biggest weakness with your skating is especially weakish and naturally non-explosive legs, like Laine very clearly has had.

Hard to buy this argument when there are kids in junior who have likely done very little leg-strength training but could leave Laine in the dust after their first few strides. Ehlers was one such example -- legs like toothpicks but a rocket out of the hole. You can have the strongest legs in the world but if your technique sucks, you are slow. Or you can have toothpick legs but if you have great technique, you can fly. And I don't think tallness is the limiting factor in that. Now, maybe Ehlers glommed on to great technique early as a kid so it was relatively easy for him, and Laine did not so it is harder for him and he may never reach Ehlers' level (talking about acceleration and first few steps, not ultimate top speed), but at least by working on his technique he can get closer to that standard. He doesn't need to wait until he has fire-hydrant legs to do that.

 

[Ippenator]

Hard to buy this argument when there are kids in junior who have likely done very little leg-strength training but could leave Laine in the dust after their first few strides. Ehlers was one such example -- legs like toothpicks but a rocket out of the hole. You can have the strongest legs in the world but if your technique sucks, you are slow. Or you can have toothpick legs but if you have great technique, you can fly. And I don't think tallness is the limiting factor in that. Now, maybe Ehlers glommed on to great technique early as a kid so it was relatively easy for him, and Laine did not so it is harder for him and he may never reach Ehlers' level (talking about acceleration and first few steps, not ultimate top speed), but at least by working on his technique he can get closer to that standard. He doesn't need to wait until he has fire-hydrant legs to do that.

You completely misunderstand the real point. Ehlers is so tiny and skinny compared to Laine still. Players built like Ehlers are practically always naturally quick. The laws of physics makes it already so. And of course he most probably had anyway a lot of quick muscle cells to start with,

But anyway when thinking of a player of Laine’s size it is practically useless to start comparing his skating at this age and the progress with his skating so far to players that are much smaller than him in size. When comparing to other 6’5 tall players the situation changes in fact quite drastically. There has not really been many as tall players whom have been really at least clearly better skaters as he was as a 19 year old. If you think that there has been many, then please can you make a list of the ones that you know to have been 6’4 or 6’5 tall and CLEARLY better skaters than he was as a 19 year old. I seriously doubt you can find too many. Wheeler to my knowledge was that kind of a player, but he was otherwise still so much worse as a player than Laine when he was only 19 years old, that it’s not even funny.

But a player like Laine has the possibility to train his acceleration to be clearly better too. It will just take many years of hard training to get more of the quick muscle cells to his legs that never had a great amount of them in the first place. He is in fact in a very similar situation with his skating that Barkov was when he was as a 19 year old. And it took Barkov practically 4 years to get where he is now. Laine has still at least 3 very hard off seasons ahead of him to even dream to be where Barkov is now. But I do still believe that he has the chance to get there with some hard and well thought training and also some luck with hopefully avoiding major injuries.

 

[PhilJets]

36 goals and 44 goals as under 20 for his 1st 2 pro season.


Can't believe we got this kid!
Most players in the history of the game don't even touch that.
Either they are not good enough to be in the league yet or they are in the league but wasn't able to put up this insane numbers.

 

[LowLefty]

Hard to buy this argument when there are kids in junior who have likely done very little leg-strength training but could leave Laine in the dust after their first few strides. Ehlers was one such example -- legs like toothpicks but a rocket out of the hole. You can have the strongest legs in the world but if your technique sucks, you are slow. Or you can have toothpick legs but if you have great technique, you can fly. And I don't think tallness is the limiting factor in that. Now, maybe Ehlers glommed on to great technique early as a kid so it was relatively easy for him, and Laine did not so it is harder for him and he may never reach Ehlers' level (talking about acceleration and first few steps, not ultimate top speed), but at least by working on his technique he can get closer to that standard. He doesn't need to wait until he has fire-hydrant legs to do that.

I agree -
Skating is typically the base that players are built from - which is why in youth hockey, they spend a ton of time on skating develepement before they start working on the rest of the game, including shooting. That doesn't appear to be the story with Laine.

Of course there are varying skill levels when it comes to skating but I think most would agree that a huge focus is usually put on skating to ensure the kid is skating very well by the time they are in their teens.
Laine's skating is not good - especially when you consider what he's likely going to be paid - scares the crap out of me.

Why oh why did they not teach this kid to skate as he progressed -

 

[Ippenator]

I agree -
Skating is typically the base that players are built from - which is why in youth hockey, they spend a ton of time on skating develepement before they start working on the rest of the game, including shooting. That doesn't appear to be the story with Laine.

Of course there are varying skill levels when it comes to skating but I think most would agree that a huge focus is usually put on skating to ensure the kid is skating very well by the time they are in their teens.
Laine's skating is not good - especially when you consider what he's likely going to be paid - scares the crap out of me.

Why oh why did they not teach this kid to skate as he progressed -

He seriously doesn’t have any other real problem with his skating than the lack of explosive power in his legs, and a big reason for this is in fact the knee injury and one year of recovering from it. His skating technique by itself is fine.

The problem with the lack of explosiveness in the legs is also an extremely common thing with young players of his size. I’m still waiting for a list of 6’5 tall players whom were clearly better skaters than Laine as 19 year old’s. I honestly can be sure of only Wheeler (and probably Mario Lemieux, whom was by most measurements only 6’4 after all) being that. And as mentioned already before, despite being a good skater already as a 19 year old, Wheeler was a so much worse player than Laine in general as a 19 year old that he wouldn’t have been worth of even carrying Laine’s jockstrap at that time.

 

[Ukkosenjumala]

He seriously doesn’t have any other real problem with his skating than the lack of explosive power in his legs, and a big reason for this is in fact the knee injury and one year of recovering from it. His skating technique by itself is fine.

The problem with the lack of explosiveness in the legs is also an extremely common thing with young players of his size. I’m still waiting for a list of 6’5 tall players whom were clearly better skaters than Laine as 19 year old’s. I honestly can be sure of only Wheeler (and probably Mario Lemieux, whom was by most measurements only 6’4 after all) being that. And as mentioned already before, despite being a good skater already as a 19 year old, Wheeler was a so much worse player than Laine in general as a 19 year old that he wouldn’t have been worth of even carrying Laine’s jockstrap at that time.

I remember this same conversation pre-draft and someone pointed out if Laine was a great skater he'd be dubbed as the next Mario Lemiuex. Now whether or not that's a generous statement you can decide for yourself but Laine is in the upper-tier when it comes to size for NHL players. I liken it to a 7 footer in the NBA, usually they're not expected to have great athleticisim due to their frame so it's always something that's seen as a plus when they enter the league. You can always become a better skater, if not an elite skater but you can't become 6'5 which will have it's own advantages.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

I remember this same conversation pre-draft and someone pointed out if Laine was a great skater he'd be dubbed as the next Mario Lemiuex. Now whether or not that's a generous statement you can decide for yourself but Laine is in the upper-tier when it comes to size for NHL players. I liken it to a 7 footer in the NBA, usually they're not expected to have great athleticisim due to their frame so it's always something that's seen as a plus when they enter the league. You can always become a better skater, if not an elite skater but you can't become 6'5 which will have it's own advantages.

Well Laine is actually very fast moving forward(especially for his size) it’s just the issue of how long it takes to get to that speed and if he has to turn his feet/body before he’s on the move.

 

[Howard Chuck]

You don't want to be accelerating, stopping and changing directions at speed unless you have the strength to absorb all that stress on long skinny limbs.

Once again, Scheifele took 4 years.

 

[Ippenator]

Well Laine is actually very fast moving forward(especially for his size) it’s just the issue of how long it takes to get to that speed and if he has to turn his feet/body before he’s on the move.

I agree otherwise, but he in fact even turns pretty darn well already for his size. I honestly don’t see him having any other real skating related problems than lacking too much explosive leg muscle cells and also way too low stamina that shows exactly also in acceleration problems, especially the longer his shifts are.

Stop and go play is a really tough deal for players of Laine’s size and weight - especially when he has had pretty weak legs, partially because of his quite recent knee problems and recovering from them. I’m pretty sure that in three years Laine is quite an unstoppable monster, if he can avoid bigger injuries and gets his acceleration to the level that Rantanen and Barkov have at the moment. That should be well enough to make him already an extremely versatile and difficult player to stop. Of course some technique based polishing to his skating will still make everything even better and easier with his skating.

But I think it’s really good to realize that some patience is definitely still needed. People will be most probably disappointed if they are expecting him to be already next season like the player that I just described earlier in this post. I’m pretty sure we will see a bit more of development next season compared to last season, but I would still not expect it to be very much bigger yet though.

 

[Gm0ney]

I don't know if anyone posted the final adjusted numbers for Laine.

His 2017-18 season adjusted goal total was the 4th best by a teenager in league history. His 2016-17 was the 8th best. He joins Crosby as the only player with two teenage seasons in the Top 10.

And his first two seasons combined are the best ever adjusted goal totals by a teenager in the NHL.

Laine's 142 adjusted points puts him 5th all-time for a teenager.

 

[Ippenator]

I don't know if anyone posted the final adjusted numbers for Laine.

His 2017-18 season adjusted goal total was the 4th best by a teenager in league history. His 2016-17 was the 8th best. He joins Crosby as the only player with two teenage seasons in the Top 10.
View attachment 126355


And his first two seasons combined are the best ever adjusted goal totals by a teenager in the NHL.
View attachment 126357

Laine's 142 adjusted points puts him 5th all-time for a teenager.

Just think of it how much better he will be in two or three years, if he avoids bigger injuries and gets more experienced and physically better (which will help his skating a lot). And will be used for closer to 20 minutes a game (when his stamina is good enough of course) and plays with a real top class playmaker most of the time. And I really hope that the Jets will then have two great playmaking centers so it will not really matter which line Laine will be playing in the top 6.

 

[Weezeric]

Just think of it how much better he will be in two or three years, if he avoids bigger injuries and gets more experienced and physically better (which will help his skating a lot). And will be used for closer to 20 minutes a game (when his stamina is good enough of course) and plays with a real top class playmaker most of the time. And I really hope that the Jets will then have two great playmaking centers so it will not really matter which line Laine will be playing in the top 6.

Never mind his skating, which will certainly improve. His shot is going to get better. Goalies should be terrified.

 

[LowLefty]

You don't want to be accelerating, stopping and changing directions at speed unless you have the strength to absorb all that stress on long skinny limbs.

Once again, Scheifele took 4 years.

I wouldn't compare Scheif's growing pains with Laines- totally different.
Scheif couldn't stay on his feet - he was a lightweight but he was a good skater.

 

[Ippenator]

I wouldn't compare Scheif's growing pains with Laines- totally different.
Scheif couldn't stay on his feet - he was a lightweight but he was a good skater.

Well, I was watching Scheifele play especially in the two WJC tournaments that he was in at those times, and honestly I have to say that we see it very differently, if you think that he was a good skater already then. He was not at all special with his skating even against his peers. What was very striking about him was that he was in general a quite skinny kid with weak legs specificly.

Sure, he had problems with falling easy, which btw Laine hasnt had too much, but Scheifele was having problems with his skating otherwise too, because of those weak legs. Not too impressive first steps either, and I dare to say that his top speed was in fact weaker than Laine’s when they both were 19 year old’s.

I saw Scheifele play also in several Jets games during those years and after that, as the Jets were one of my favorite NHL teams for sure even before Laine was playing there. For three years I practically was quite sceptical if Scheifele would ever become a true star player. I could see then already very impressive skills and especially it was easy to see that he had very high hockey IQ. But it was just his weak physics that kept me still doubting him. Cool that he has been so driven and training with good methods that strengthened his legs and gave him the much needed power and explosiveness to his legs. And also he has done enormously well with training his stamina.

He has done exactly the training that Laine needs and has been already even doing. But Laine needs still two or three years of the hard physical training to be in relatively similar physical shape that Scheifele is at. Most probably even more time is needed and no bigger injuries should occur during that time. So it is partially also about luck from that part. But at least I can assure that Laine has the similar kind of optimal training attitude that Scheifele has. He wants to do everything possible that is needed for him to make himself a better player. He is extremely highly motivated and willing to work very hard in the exercises that are needed for his development.

I know that some North American fans are not sure how hard Laine is training or how good attitude he has towards training. I can assure you that no need to worry, as he is in the very rare group of extremely highly motivated very talented players that there is. He has exactly the kind of attitude as Crosby, Scheifele and other real top attitude guys.

The same goes with the other Finnish rising star Sebastian Aho, whom is also extremely driven and is on his way to become one of the best players in the whole league. I know that quite a lot of people are even still sleeping on the magnificent skills and potential that Aho has, but in a year or two already he will open even the rest of the closed eyes so far. And I’m sure that in a few years latest the same will happen with Laine and the surprisingly big crowd still doubting him.

 

[Tommigun]

Well, I was watching Scheifele play especially in the two WJC tournaments that he was in at those times, and honestly I have to say that we see it very differently, if you think that he was a good skater already then. He was not at all special with his skating even against his peers. What was very striking about him was that he was in general a quite skinny kid with weak legs specificly.

Sure, he had problems with falling easy, which btw Laine hasnt had too much, but Scheifele was having problems with his skating otherwise too, because of those weak legs. Not too impressive first steps either, and I dare to say that his top speed was in fact weaker than Laine’s when they both were 19 year old’s.

I saw Scheifele play also in several Jets games during those years and after that, as the Jets were one of my favorite NHL teams for sure even before Laine was playing there. For three years I practically was quite sceptical if Scheifele would ever become a true star player. I could see then already very impressive skills and especially it was easy to see that he had very high hockey IQ. But it was just his weak physics that kept me still doubting him. Cool that he has been so driven and training with good methods that strengthened his legs and gave him the much needed power and explosiveness to his legs. And also he has done enormously well with training his stamina.

He has done exactly the training that Laine needs and has been already even doing. But Laine needs still two or three years of the hard physical training to be in relatively similar physical shame that Scheifele is at. Most probably even more time is needed and no bigger injuries should occur during that time. So it is partially also about luck from that part. But at least I can assure that Laine has the similar kind of optimal training attitude that Scheifele has. He wants to do everything possible that is needed for him to make himself a better player. He is extremely highly motivated and willing to work very hard in the exercises that are needed for his development.

I know that some North American fans are not sure how hard Laine is training or how good attitude he has towards training. I can assure you that no need to worry, as he is in the very rare group of extremely highly motivated very talented players that there is. He has exactly the kind of attitude as Crosby, Scheifele and other real top attitude guys.

The same goes with the other Finnish rising star Sebastian Aho, whom is also extremely driven and is on his way to become one of the best players in the whole league. I know that quite a lot of people are even still sleeping on the magnificent skills and potential that Aho has, but in a year or two already he will open even the rest of the closed eyes so far.

So how is Puljujarvi’s training? And his training motivation?

 

[Ippenator]

So how is Puljujarvi’s training? And his training motivation?

Pulju is not even close to the talent that Laine and Aho are. He lacks first of all hockey IQ, which is by a huge margin still the most important area in hockey (as long as you have other areas at least on an acceptable level). Pulju’s training has been quite much criticized in Finland even though he has had even a Finnish top sprinting skater as his skating instructor. I’m not sure what they have really done wrong with him, but at least he hasn’t developed physically in the way that was expected. Could of course be a bit of the same thing that has been going on with Laine, that the good results still take quite a lot of time to show with such a big bodied player. And Pulju has had in fact some knee problems even more recently than Laine has had.

But anyway for this off-season Pulju did change his training group to Aho’s group, which is thought of as being a really good and efficient group in Finland. They train a lot of explosiveness and stamina based exercises in quite versatile ways. I have understood that a lot of jumping based exercises have been included for them, but they use really quite versatile methods, and so far at least Aho has been developing really well. Hopefully it will help also Pulju a lot, although I still believe that he would need to most of all develop his hockey IQ especially in the offence when he doesn't have the puck. He is just too often clueless in those situations and makes so easily wrong choices that makes the offensive play more difficult for him and his teammates.

Pulju is also more like a child with his approach to hockey. It seems to me that it’s for sure a fun game that he really loves to play, but he just seems to lack the clear drive that Laine and Aho have with systematically turning every stone and doing every possible exercises needed to make him develop as a player. I’m not saying that he is lazy, which in fact some Finns have been even claiming, but to me he just seems to lack the driven and constructive approach to his training. Could be just that he hasn't yet been as mature as Laine or Aho. Hard to say for sure though.

 

[Legend Leinonen]

The hardest and also the slowest process is to gain the muscle mass. But it's still something you just have to do first so you have something to build on with your up coming development. And Laine is at age when muscle training is most effect full, so in my opinion it would be stupid to put the focus of his training to skating technique or something else what he can learn after he has filled his frame.

I doubt there's a single succesfull sprinter/speed skater who trains for mass. What matters is force to mass ratio.

 

[Ippenator]

I doubt there's a single succesfull sprinter/speed skater who trains for mass. What matters is force to mass ratio.

Have you seen how sprint skaters train? And have you seen what kind of legs sprint skaters have? If any guys in any sport have crazy muscular legs that are thick like tree trunks, they are exactly speed skaters. I can tell you that just like sprinter runners they practically live at the gym.

Of course the point is not to gain mass, but when you want to get the maximum explosive power, there’s absolutely no way in hell to not get more mass with the gained explosive muscle cells.

 

[Legend Leinonen]

A great example of athlete with high force to mass ratio is Norwegian olympic gold medalist in Javelin throw - Andreas Thorkildsen. Andreas was 190 cm tall and weight only little over 80 kg, with long and skinny arms. Here he is bench pressing 200kg