Player Discussion: Patrik Laine - MOD WARNING IN OP

[Ippenator]

I think we're exactly on the same page here.

And I'm not questioning wether Laine should train with Rautala or not. I know some guys think of him as some kind of a guru here in Finland. He's probably accurately described with wording "high end physique and strength trainer". He has experience about hockey players summer training since -77 and consistent NHL players summer training since -95. I have no question wether or not he knows how to build up muscle strength, explosiveness and cardio. He's got the credentials to show he knows what he's doing.

Thing is, he's not a hockey trainer. Yes, he also trains hockey players but he's not a hockey trainer. For example, he can't and won't teach his trainees any skating techniques. He can implement training methods that support skating. Focusing on muscle training that helps lateral movement or straight line explosiveness. But it doesn't improve Laine's skating techniques.

It's odd to me how often people here talk about Laine's body developing but completely ignore that as it develops he needs to get used to it. It's like Formula 1 driver getting a new car each season. Yeah they are sort of same as the last season one but still different. Engineers can teach them all the nuances and gadgets of the car. But it does no good unless the driver gets familiar with his new car. Similar kind of acceleration from corner B as last season is now sending the car head first to tire-wall. Laine is getting a new body each season. He has to get used to it. Only way it can be done is by taking it out for a lap time and time again.

Laine will do some skating exercises when they think that his physical training is mostly done at the more excessive level and he can efficiently gain something from doing the skating training. If you are doing very hard muscle training it’s really not too useful to do at the same time technique based training, as your body and nerval system is going through a lot of changes and trying to learn the techniques in that kind of time is not efficient at all and leads to mostly wasting the time you invest into that kind of training. The time can be better used for maximizing the explosive strength and stamina training. Which both Laine has still a huge workload ahead of him. I would say AT LEAST two full off season, or maybe even three.

Anyway, Laine is a smart kid and he takes advice only from people whom really know what they are doing. I at least trust 100% his and his advisors approaches to his training and development.

 

[Plural]

I wonder how common it is for NHL level players, especially under 25 year olds to not skate at all during off season?

For me it just sounds like a bad plan. I'm no expert and obviously I'm just an amateur giving armchair opinion. It just strikes me as odd training method. Like a sprinter doing no sprinting during training season. Or soccer player doing no play-situation training during off season. Tennis player not touching the racket during off season training. Etc. etc.

Maybe it works out great and I hope it does. Like I said, I don't doubt Rautala's ability in physique and strength training. I'd be more relaxed about it if I knew it's even semi-common approach by young NHL players.

 

[Ippenator]

I wonder how common it is for NHL level players, especially under 25 year olds to not skate at all during off season?

For me it just sounds like a bad plan. I'm no expert and obviously I'm just an amateur giving armchair opinion. It just strikes me as odd training method. Like a sprinter doing no sprinting during training season. Or soccer player doing no play-situation training during off season. Tennis player not touching the racket during off season training. Etc. etc.

Maybe it works out great and I hope it does. Like I said, I don't doubt Rautala's ability in physique and strength training. I'd be more relaxed about it if I knew it's even semi-common approach by young NHL players.

Of course if they think that Laine has already done most of the hardest kind of muscle training already, they might add already some skating training for him too. But that will not happen in Rautala’s group. Then he will just simply join some team's (probably Tappara’s) summer skating practices, after he has finished in Rautala’s group for the summer. I can’t say that I’m surprised if it happens already this summer, but on the other hand I would maybe still expect it to happen rather next summer.

 

[Ippenator]

Btw, I dont think it is also that common for kids at Laine’s age to have exactly the same situation that he has with his legs. Big size, weakish non-explosive legs and had just a pretty serious knee injury three years ago, that took him even backwards in his leg muscle training and development. It all just means that he needs to do a lot more of the physical training for his legs than most top prospects have had to do in or around his age.

 

[Whileee]

There’s no quickness unless you have enough of explosive strength. Quickness IS strength, just through the kind of muscle cells that provide the explosive kind of power. There can be small and thin players that have naturally a lot of the quick muscle cells in their legs, so they might not need to do so much of explosive muscle training as a bigger guy like Laine that has always had weakish legs without having naturally a good amount of the quick muscle cells.

This means that Laine has to do an enormous amount of work for a few years to get his leg explosiveness to even a good level. It’s for sure not an easy and quick process and for sure there are no shortcuts by training some skating techniques etc. He needs to get his skinny legs to a much stronger level and he is not really that close to being ready with it yet.

And seriously, Laine’s real problem is not his skating technique. He can still polish it for sure, but it is not because of his skating technique why his first steps are not too good yet. He just simply lacks enough of explosive muscle cells in his legs and he needs to do a lot of work still to get to an even good level. He will never be elite with it anyway, so people expecting him to become somekind of a skating monster will be extremely disappointed in the future, if they will keep up that kind of expectations.

There is a technique and balance at the core of excellent skating. Strength and explosiveness through off-ice training is necessary, but not sufficient to continue to improve skating. I think he can and should improve his skating, and I have my doubts that he can do it simply through off-ice training, just like I don't think a player can improve his shot simply by building more strength and flexibility.

 

[Tommigun]

Of course if they think that Laine has already done most of the hardest kind of muscle training already, they might add already some skating training for him too. But that will not happen in Rautala’s group. Then he will just simply join some team's (probably Tappara’s) summer skating practices, after he has finished in Rautala’s group for the summer. I can’t say that I’m surprised if it happens already this summer, but on the other hand I would maybe still expect it to happen rather next summer.

Scheifele paid from his own pocket to get Oates or whoever it was to train him, and he became a beast. Why would Laine waste the summer by going to Tappara’s practices? Lunacy.

 

[Ippenator]

There is a technique and balance at the core of excellent skating. Strength and explosiveness through off-ice training is necessary, but not sufficient to continue to improve skating. I think he can and should improve his skating, and I have my doubts that he can do it simply through off-ice training, just like I don't think a player can improve his shot simply by building more strength and flexibility.

He will for sure be doing some skating exercises when they think that his explosive strength in his legs and his stamina are at a good enough level. I’m pretty sure they will not start it before that. He can do some polishing for sure. But honestly he does not have big problems with his skating technique I have discussed this issue with one person who does junior league coaching and has specialized with helping kids with their skating training. I also have seen at least one interview where an expert was saying that Laine has pretty good skating skills, but hat he has clearly a big lack of explosive strength. This is exactly how I have seen it already for a long time with Laine. Sure he can get some benefit from some skating technique training even, but it will be a small help compared to what he could achieve with gaining clearly better explosive leg strength.

 

[10Ducky10]

Scheif hired Oates as more of a consultant didn't he? Talks to him after every game I read somewhere.
He trains with Gary Roberts in the off-season.

 

[Ippenator]

Scheifele paid from his own pocket to get Oates or whoever it was to train him, and he became a beast. Why would Laine waste the summer by going to Tappara’s practices? Lunacy.

It was Roberts whom Scheifele was mostly training with. And Roberts is practically a strength and nutritioning coach whom includes to his program some other experts if needed. He was never a very good skater himself to really be training others with the exact skating. Scheifele had there part of the program with a skating instructor. But the main focus even with him was still in gaining the strength and the stamina - especially explosive strength.

Seems like you think that Finnish training is somehow worse than North American training. The truth is though that Europe has as great and professional trainers as North America has. Finnish Liiga teams use these professional coaches and instructors too. So if he trains with Tappara, it for sure will not be by any means a bad thing.

Mikko Rantanen has trained with TPS or with other Finnish NHL players on the ice during the off season, while playing in the NHL and Sebastian Aho has trained with Kärpät. And I dare to say that these two have done extremely well with their training so far.

 

[Ippenator]

Still reminding also that Scheifele didn’t get really too visible development yet during his first three off seasons with Roberts. The very well visible results could be more seen after his 4th and 5th off seasons. Most visible after the 5th off season.

 

[scelaton]

It was Roberts whom Scheifele was mostly training with. And Roberts is practically a strength and nutritioning coach whom includes to his program some other experts if needed. He was never a very good skater himself to really be training others with the exact skating. Scheifele had there part of the program with a skating instructor. But the main focus even with him was still in gaining the strength and the stamina - especially explosive strength.

Seems like you think that Finnish training is somehow worse than North American training. The truth is though that Europe has as great and professional trainers as North America has. Finnish Liiga trainers use these professional coaches and instructors too. So if he trains with Tappara, it for sure will not be by any means a bad thing.

Mikko Rantanen has trained with TPS during the off season; while playing in the NHL and Sebastian Aho has trained with Kärpät. And I dare to say that this two have done extremely well with their training so far.

No, that's not the implication at all.
I'm sure Rautala is very good at what he does....but it's often helpful to get a second consultant's opinion in these cases, especially when the stakes are high and the outcome (improved quickness, not scoring) is not evident. I would highly recommend it.

 

[RageQuit77]

Up to date. Playoffs goals added to same chart as only 5 goals doesn't warrant their own chart.
Rookie season 2016-17 chart here --->

Patrik's Career Weapons of Choice (Regular seasons and playoffs combined)

51.76% Wrist-S. Snipe Cal. 44/85
32.94% One-T. Bazooka 28/85 Gauge
7.05% Zip'n'Flip-in 6/85 Scatter G.
3.53% Deflection Shooter 3/85
2.35% Slap-S. Cal. 2/85
2.35% B-Hand G-sling 2/85

___________________________

Normal difficulties with accurate placement of colored spots and interpretations of exact shot type and entry points of some goals.

 

[Ippenator]

No, that's not the implication at all.
I'm sure Rautala is very good at what he does....but it's often helpful to get a second consultant's opinion in these cases, especially when the stakes are high and the outcome (improved quickness, not scoring) is not evident. I would highly recommend it.

I’m sure they have discussed with many experts in general, and of course with the Jets management about his development. But they have chosen Rautala because they seriously believe that he is the best person to help Laine with his explosiveness and stamina issues. Sure maybe Roberts could also help really well, but I doubt seriously that there is that big difference between two long time professional trainers like Roberts and Rautala that it will anyway be a very meaningful difference.

Also good to remember is that Laine is Finnish and as he spends anyway the whole season in North America, there’s little or none of chances that he will in addition to that spend his summers in North America. I don’t know in fact any Finnish players whom would do that, so I wouldn’t seriously expect that from Laine either. Especially when he is still so young. And anyway, as he can get extremely good professional trainers from Finland, he just doesn’t even need to spend his summers in North America.

 

[Tommigun]

It was Roberts whom Scheifele was mostly training with. And Roberts is practically a strength and nutritioning coach whom includes to his program some other experts if needed. He was never a very good skater himself to really be training others with the exact skating. Scheifele had there part of the program with a skating instructor. But the main focus even with him was still in gaining the strength and the stamina - especially explosive strength.

Seems like you think that Finnish training is somehow worse than North American training. The truth is though that Europe has as great and professional trainers as North America has. Finnish Liiga teams use these professional coaches and instructors too. So if he trains with Tappara, it for sure will not be by any means a bad thing.

Mikko Rantanen has trained with TPS during the off season; while playing in the NHL and Sebastian Aho has trained with Kärpät. And I dare to say that these two have done extremely well with their training so far.

Hi. Thanks for the info. What I meant though was that if he trains with a team like Tappara it won’t be tailored to his needs and I doubt he’ll get anywhere close to the maximum benefits an off-season can provide. Also, it still is just Tappara and not an elite NHL level team so yeah, I do think he’d gain more by training in NA.

 

[Ippenator]

Hi. Thanks for the info. What I meant though was that if he trains with a team like Tappara it won’t be tailored to his needs and I doubt he’ll get anywhere close to the maximum benefits an off-season can provide. Also, it still is just Tappara and not an elite NHL level team so yeah, I do think he’d gain more by training in NA.

Europeans don’t train in general their off season in North America. Somehow there’s still great amounts of European star players in the NHL. If you are seriously expecting Laine to train his off season in North America you can simply just keep on dreaming.

NHL teams are not that much greater than European teams in every single thing that you should really believe that there is that big difference in training. Sure you can keep believing so, but honestly I think that is not really true in general. In some cases for sure, but not with everything.

Mikko Rantanen became an 84 points player with training all his off seasons in Finland, and so did almost every real top class European star player in the past and in the present.

 

[Whileee]

Europeans don’t train even in general their off season in North America. Somehow there’s still great amounts of European star players in the NHL. If Hou are seriously expecting Laine to train his off season in North America you can simply just keep on dreaming.

NHL teams are not that much greater than European teams in every single thing that you should really believe that there is that big difference in training. Sure you can keep believing so, but honestly I think that is not really true in general. In some cases for sure, but. But not with everything.

Mikko Rantanen became an 84 points player with training all his off seasons in Finland, and so did almost every real top class European star player in the past and in the present.

Did Rantanen avoid on-ice training in the summers, too?

 

[Ippenator]

Did Rantanen avoid on-ice training in the summers, too?

I think he has joined TPS with their on ice training after Rautala’s group was finished for the summer. I have to still check on this, as I’m not absolutely sure about this now.

But good to remember is also that Rantanen was ahead of Laine with his leg strength at the same age that Laine is now. And also Rantanen didn’t have an injury setback that he had to catch up with his training in the same way that Laine has had with his knee injury and operation and almost one year of recovering process.

 

[Ippenator]

Did Rantanen avoid on-ice training in the summers, too?

I quickly googled and found that he has been at least last summer with TPS players in Jukka Koivu’s on ice training group. Jukka is the father of Saku and Mikko Koivu. This after the training with Rautala’s group was finished for the summer.

Correction: Not TPS’s group exactly, but a group that Jukka Koivu has for Finnish NHL players. Often Turku based players attend that group.

 

[RageQuit77]

If all Patrik's goal scoring locations over his entire career (playoffs included) are combined to same chart, the pattern looks like this:

That's hastily made raw version, but it gives nice image of Patty's "Cone of Carnage" on ice.

He should really try sometimes those small angle snipes via bottoms of a goalie, far side bardownskies of 1 degree, negative angle skate deflections etc. stuff. There is dozens of degrees empty space there on OZ for him in this category.

But... He is still so young, an apperentice, the student of Hockey.

 

[Royale With Cheese]

If all Patrik's goal scoring locations over his entire career (playoffs included) are combined to same chart, the pattern looks like this:

That's hastily made raw version, but it gives nice image of Patty's "Cone of Carnage" on ice.

He should really try sometimes those small angle snipes via bottoms of a goalie, far side bardownskies of 1 degree, negative angle skate deflections etc. stuff. There is dozens of degrees empty space there on OZ for him in this category.

But... He is still so young, an apperentice, the student of Hockey.

LOL I'm guessing that #38 was the one he scored on his own net?

 

[scarbrow21]

LOL I'm guessing that #38 was the one he scored on his own net?

empty net goals in case that wasn't sarcasm

 

[Royale With Cheese]

empty net goals in case that wasn't sarcasm

I was serious, but then realized that one would not have been credited to Laine.

 

[Ippenator]

If all Patrik's goal scoring locations over his entire career (playoffs included) are combined to same chart, the pattern looks like this:

That's hastily made raw version, but it gives nice image of Patty's "Cone of Carnage" on ice.

He should really try sometimes those small angle snipes via bottoms of a goalie, far side bardownskies of 1 degree, negative angle skate deflections etc. stuff. There is dozens of degrees empty space there on OZ for him in this category.

But... He is still so young, an apperentice, the student of Hockey.

Thanks for this. Great work from you again! But I’m a bit confused about the colors though. I thought first that green and yellow are his separate regular seasons and blue is playoffs. But after all it can’t be, as the green has all the empty netters, and the yellow has none. To my knowledge he scored more empty netters in his rookie season, but he did still score at least a couple of them this season too. So is there a mistake with the colors, or am I just not understanding it right?

Edit: I guess yellow is power play goals and green is even strength. Or am I lost with this again?

 

[RageQuit77]

Thanks for this. Great work from you again! But I’m a bit confused about the colors though. I thought first that green and yellow are his separate regular seasons and blue is playoffs. But after all it can’t be, as the green has all the empty netters, and the yellow has none. To my knowledge he scored more empty netters in his rookie season, but he did still score at least a couple of them this season too. So is there a mistake with the colors, or am I just not understanding it right?

Edit: I guess yellow is power play goals and green is even strength. Or am I lost with this again?

Gee, thanks. I don't know about "great work". Just putting two charts above each other using MS-Paint's transparent mode, cut and copy paste, some re-framing, uploading to the imgur and publishing it without much thinking about better version.

On this forum page you can see both of those charts that were combined. Full of empty-netters indeed.

 

[kelsier]

Not surprised seeing all the talk about having the "right" kind of off-season menu. Of course most fans expected him to be a rocket or even just have significant increase in foot speed at the start of the last year already - me included in some degree. Since it didn't happen and even Laine himself said it would take a lot of time for the muscles to adjust, one could see that he was a lot better on the skates during the second half of the year. I think it's short-sighted calling out his off-season trainer who's main goal is to max out on Laine's physical ceiling looking long-term as opposed to focusing on immediate results. Rautala is probably the best athlete trainer that's working with the hockey players in the country and amongst the best in the world. He knows what he's doing and nothing I worry about.

Lets keep in mind Laine scored 36 goals at his first season, followed by s "slumpish" sophomore year at 44 beating some of the old time greats along the way without having elite support cast (other than on the PP). That 44 could have as easily been 55 had he been playing first line as was expected by many after the rookie campaign. All things considered, that was pretty extraordinary accomplishment. Of course I was little bit disappointed about Laine not reaching his highest mode in the playoffs, but at least he showed up game after game, which cannot be said about every other player out there. I do have high hopes for him and next year he could break out fully. I just frigging hope he doesn't get buried down in the secondary scoring role yet again with limited minutes and with line mates he simply doesn't mesh up with so well.

Lost back the fifty euros to gf's brother after 17-18. The first time I cashed in with a bet of Laine scoring on at least 0,65 ppg pace in his rookie year and last season I had another one going for him wrapping up a ppg season, so the balance now is +/- 0. P'Mo is such on X-factor and not knowing how he'll use him, I'm not sure if I''m comfortable with the horse racing anymore. Maybe just having fingers crossed for the mere purpose of seeing him do well instead.