Patrik Laine III: We’ve got questions, he’s got answers

[majormajor]

I realize the board is called "hockey's future" but sometimes it still amazes me how often people here are eager to trade known quantities for unspecified futures who in the very best of scenarios could conceivably be at a similar level and almost certainly will be significantly worse.

When Laine is something for us other than unfulfilled promise, then we can draw a sharper contrast between what he brings and what we get from gambling on high draft picks. For now they are very similar.

 

[VT]

I'm going to wait on analyzing Patrik until the season gets going under a new coach. Last season a bunch of fans bombarded these boards with messages of greatness that I didn't really get to see much of. Much of that talk has been put to rest but where does he fall between the superstar some made him out to be to the hopeless locker room cancer that others are claiming now. I don't have anything personally invested in Laine so I don't care if he stays or goes.

You`re right. This team will be another, the coach will, according his words, prefer more offensive hockey and want to give him the best players. He knows the town, the teammates,one has been, accroding his words, very good preseason. If he would play bad, it`s only his blame (of course if injury isn`t be). So we`ll se what he will play and I hope he`ll show his talent.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I realize the board is called "hockey's future" but sometimes it still amazes me how often people here are eager to trade known quantities for unspecified futures who in the very best of scenarios could conceivably be at a similar level and almost certainly will be significantly worse.

I’m not unsympathetic to this line of thinking, and I’m not opposed to holding Laine in the hopes that he returns to what we think might be form, but I think it’s fair to wonder about Laine as a “known quantity” and whether or not assets in return would be “worse”.

 

[Bruce Granville]

I'm going to wait on analyzing Patrik until the season gets going under a new coach. Last season a bunch of fans bombarded these boards with messages of greatness that I didn't really get to see much of. Much of that talk has been put to rest but where does he fall between the superstar some made him out to be to the hopeless locker room cancer that others are claiming now. I don't have anything personally invested in Laine so I don't care if he stays or goes.

I guess they didn‘t expect the team being sooo bad after exiting the own zone.
No zone entries, no PP, no set plays, no faceoff winning centres…instead dump, chase and grind.
It was horrible to watch.
I doubt McDavid could have changed that.

 

[majormajor]

I guess they didn‘t expect the team being sooo bad after exiting the own zone.
No zone entries, no PP, no set plays, no faceoff winning centres…instead dump, chase and grind.
It was horrible to watch.
I doubt McDavid could have changed that.

McDavid would have changed that.

Laine has to be deep in the bottom half of NHL forwards when it comes to his ability to carry the puck into the offensive zone. He got bad results because he himself was bad. The whole team was better when he was on the bench.

 

[Halberdier]

McDavid would have changed that.

McDavid would have changed some of that just because he is the very best in the league in that.

But even he would not have changed all of that, because the problem was clearly systemic, and not primarily about the roster. Zone entries were one of the worst I have seen, but what was absolutely worst I have ever seen was the system (or lack thereof) what to do *after the fact* zone entry was made. Totally pathetic and that falls at least 95% on the coaching staff. (Which is why I was not that happy when the assistant coach was selected as a new head coach, but for sure I hope for the best. I hope that the last season was a tirefire simply because Torts was not giving s*** anymore as he wanted out year before.)

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[thebus88]

Looks like a small improvement in the effort level based on what we saw last year…

 

[tunnelvision]

Looks like a small improvement in the effort level based on what we saw last year…

Based on that clip they must have been doing backcheck drills.

 

[VT]

Looks like a small improvement in the effort level based on what we saw last year…

Based on that clip a I watch he`ll be Selke Trophy candidate...

 

[thebus88]

I’m curious where the Laine-Larsen narrative is at currently….seems to be quiet.

Tons of the (off ice related) talk was about Laine/Torts after the trade was made, and yet was it not confirmed that Larsen was the guy who got into the argument with Laine??

Nothing is complete, but the absolute “roller coaster” that the Dubois/Laine situation has been, all the way back to Dubois’ draft day, is fascinating and disheartening. I see last years immediate perceived change/impact on the team comparable to the Horton/insurance situation. Go from having a great asset and player for the next near future -to- negative impact on the team, almost over night.

Looking at it asset wise, the situation seems better as Laine can actually play, does have “elite” potential, and could be dealt for something positive. The problem is that Dubois was dealt away and has all these things also, less skill, but, he can play a more important position.

Maybe we thought too highly of Dubois and what we thought HE wanted to be as a NHL player. There were ‘red flags’ that we ignored, he was given the “young player” excuse. Horton out with an injury does not have the negative impact on the team that the mindset and actions that Dubois showed at times, and MORE IMPORTANTLY Laine seemed to show MUCH too much of last year.

 

[Jan]

I realize the board is called "hockey's future" but sometimes it still amazes me how often people here are eager to trade known quantities for unspecified futures who in the very best of scenarios could conceivably be at a similar level and almost certainly will be significantly worse.

Normally I would agree with you!
But what do we have in Laine?

Attitude problems?
Locker room problems? (because there was some last season)
Defensive flaws?

Now there was problems with Laine last season, and some looked like Attitude problems. Some time it look like lark of skills, even he made high light goal. I will however put those lark of skills under lark of effort.

In the end there are plenty reason to be very concerned about Laine as a player.

He is seemly putting in some effort to improve over this off season and that is promising.

But if you look at how the team felled apart after Laine entered the team, I would say I would not be able to say better have him, than anybody else.
Yes it was not necessary Laine that was the reason of the collapse, but problems came after he was introduced on the team, so he is the main candidate for the reason. Like it or not.

However that would be clear up early this season.
So this season is of major importance for both Blue Jacket and Laine.
If He fails like last season, he will not be easy to trade away, talent or not.
Because almost all will consider his problem with attitude, right or wrong, and that is something teams hate.

 

[EspenK]

From today's Athletic: Breakout players? Predictions? Goalie trades? Eichel's future? Duhatschek mailbag

What do you expect out of Patrik Laine and Pierre-Luc Dubois this season? — Bending C.
Massive rebounds for both. Laine scores 35 goals minimum and maybe 40. Dubois gets 70 points and pushes Mark Scheifele for that 1a/1b center slot. A full year in both Columbus and Winnipeg, and a chance to genuinely get their roles clarified by the coaching staff, will benefit both.

Over/under on each?

 

[Monk]

From today's Athletic: Breakout players? Predictions? Goalie trades? Eichel's future? Duhatschek mailbag



Over/under on each?

Honestly.. under on both if I have to choose.

 

[3074326]

I don't think PLD is getting 70 points playing 2nd line C and getting 2nd PP minutes. Seems like a really stupid prediction.

 

[behemolari]

Normally I would agree with you!
But what do we have in Laine?

Attitude problems?
Locker room problems? (because there was some last season)
Defensive flaws?

Now there was problems with Laine last season, and some looked like Attitude problems. Some time it look like lark of skills, even he made high light goal. I will however put those lark of skills under lark of effort.

In the end there are plenty reason to be very concerned about Laine as a player.

He is seemly putting in some effort to improve over this off season and that is promising.

But if you look at how the team felled apart after Laine entered the team, I would say I would not be able to say better have him, than anybody else.
Yes it was not necessary Laine that was the reason of the collapse, but problems came after he was introduced on the team, so he is the main candidate for the reason. Like it or not.

However that would be clear up early this season.
So this season is of major importance for both Blue Jacket and Laine.
If He fails like last season, he will not be easy to trade away, talent or not.
Because almost all will consider his problem with attitude, right or wrong, and that is something teams hate.

Correlation doesn't imply causation, and its not like PLD was doing any better with Jets

That's setting the bar mighty low. Might as well trade Laine now and hope there's still some GM in the league who thinks there's a hockey player (and goalscorer) there.

Both Carolina and Florida are definitely after him. Its very difficult to see him staying to be honest

 

[Easternbull]

What has Dubois proven apart from stomping through one round of the pretty boy leafs and one 60p + season beside one of the leagues best play drivers in Panarin?

Patty had one down season and was doing just fine untill the Torts mindgames started, No One in the Jets has had anything bad to say about Patrik as a team mate ,only Wheeler wented some frustrations regarding his fortnite playing with Ehlers when he was still just a kid.

IMHO the locker room cancer thing came from Atkinson whom obviously wanted Laine out and thefore was himself moved. Lke Voracek Patrik wants to win and hates losing and shows it. But he has always owened up and is the first to critisize himself not others.

Give the kid a second chance and you will see is an honest unselfish clutch player that will one day give you 50 goals in this league.

 

[majormajor]

What has Dubois proven apart from stomping through one round of the pretty boy leafs and one 60p + season beside one of the leagues best play drivers in Panarin?

Patty had one down season and was doing just fine untill the Torts mindgames started

Should I even keep reading? You don't know the facts here.

Dubois nearly paced for 60 pts in his last season in Columbus, much of it while nearly every other quality forward was injured. His linemates at one point were Milano and Bemstrom, and he was still effective.

Patty has had two atrocious seasons now. "Down season" is quite the understatement. Torts doesn't do mindgames, he was the most straightforward coach.

I don't believe anyone said "locker room cancer". The report from Portzline was that some inside the org would like Laine and the Jackets to part ways.

We'd all love to see Patty have a big bounceback, I'm feeling optimistic now that he might be able to do it. But you're not helping him by distorting things. He doesn't need that.

 

[VT]

Should I even keep reading? You don't know the facts here.

Dubois nearly paced for 60 pts in his last season in Columbus, much of it while nearly every other quality forward was injured. His linemates at one point were Milano and Bemstrom, and he was still effective.

Patty has had two atrocious seasons now. "Down season" is quite the understatement. Torts doesn't do mindgames, he was the most straightforward coach.

I don't believe anyone said "locker room cancer". The report from Portzline was that some inside the org would like Laine and the Jackets to part ways.

We'd all love to see Patty have a big bounceback, I'm feeling optimistic now that he might be able to do it. But you're not helping him by distorting things. He doesn't need that.

Not quite. His last season in Jets was good simply he was often injured. The season before was bad.

What`s happen Dubois I agree. Besides remember the last PO with Panarin who wasn`t so good if not Dubois, I`m not sure how he would play.

 

[VT]

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[Easternbull]

Okay sorry for getting a bit rilled up, but what is the most difficult thing in hockey? Is it backchecking/forechecking, defending, passing...no it's putting the puck in the net and apart from Ovie, Pasternak, Mathews, Kucherov, Patrik is/will be among the best shooters in the league for years to come.

He is not a defensive wizzard like Mark Stone or a power forward like Josh Anderson, but that is what lines and teams are for you need different types of players and personalities to WIN. Nothing to be ashamed of with having defined roles on a line or team and Patrik is a goal scorer/game breaker, but he also learned to bakcheck during the 2019-2020 season those of you who says he does not care or does not back check, have only watched him play in Columbus.

Torts and partly Jarmo talked about turning Patrik into a true power forward last season witch IMHO is the wrong way to utalize his unique skillset. Just because he is 6'5 and 200+ lbs does not mean he will play like Alex Tuch or Brady Ketchup , just ask Laine's previous mentor Blake Wheeler who did not fill out his lanky frame until he was close to 30 years old!!

Patrik has the exact opposite bodytype to say Cole Sillinger who's already THICK at only 18 who has obviously put in a ton of time in the gym, but ask anyone on the Florida Panthers team who does the hardest off ice wotk outs and the answer is Sahsa Barkov. Patty's last two summers have not been spent playing fortnite with Alexander, but like I said don't buy a ferarri and go offroading with it.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Okay sorry for getting a bit rilled up, but what is the most difficult thing in hockey? Is it backchecking/forechecking, defending, passing...no it's putting the puck in the net and apart from Ovie, Pasternak, Mathews, Kucherov, Patrik is/will be among the best shooters in the league for years to come.

He is not a defensive wizzard like Mark Stone or a power forward like Josh Anderson, but that is what lines and teams are for you need different types of players and personalities to WIN. Nothing to be ashamed of with having defined roles on a line or team and Patrik is a goal scorer/game breaker, but he also learned to bakcheck during the 2019-2020 season those of you who says he does not care or does not back check, have only watched him play in Columbus.

Torts and partly Jarmo talked about turning Patrik into a true power forward last season witch IMHO is the wrong way to utalize his unique skillset. Just because he is 6'5 and 200+ lbs does not mean he will play like Alex Tuch or Brady Ketchup , just ask Laine's previous mentor Blake Wheeler who did not fill out his lanky frame until he was close to 30 years old!!

Patrik has the exact opposite bodytype to say Cole Sillinger who's already THICK at only 18 who has obviously put in a ton of time in the gym, but ask anyone on the Florida Panthers team who does the hardest off ice wotk outs and the answer is Sahsa Barkov. Patty's last two summers have not been spent playing fortnite with Alexander, but like I said don't buy a ferarri and go offroading with it.

I agree with you on a mix of player skill sets…

but if a player is one the ice for more goals against than goals for he’s a net negative, no matter how many goals he scores. This was the case with Laine in CBJ last year. I believe his goal differential was the worst on the team. I know some of that is line/roster related — in the same way people don’t care for +/-. But the player must take responsibility for that as well. And the eye test backed up the stat in this instance.

I expect him to be much better this year but to suggest he wasn’t bad and that you should overlook his shortcomings is a mistake.

 

[Monk]

I agree with you on a mix of player skill sets…

but if a player is one the ice for more goals against than goals for he’s a net negative, no matter how many goals he scores. This was the case with Laine in CBJ last year. I believe his goal differential was the worst on the team. I know some of that is line/roster related — in the same way people don’t care for +/-. But the player must take responsibility for that as well. And the eye test backed up the stat in this instance.

I expect him to be much better this year but to suggest he wasn’t bad and that you should overlook his shortcomings is a mistake.

To pile on:

After seeing a slight return to form in 2019-20 scoring 63 points in 68 games (while remaining a massive defensive liability), Laine struggled immensely in 2020-21. Part of that was coming to a new team that had nowhere near the same level of offensive support on it, but the other part was the sad truth that Laine just isn’t the player he’s made out to be. It’s not just that he struggles defensively, it’s that he doesn’t really drive offense either. He just scores points.

To his credit, Laine is pretty strong off the rush, but this isn’t a team that’s exactly built for that which makes his job a bit difficult. Still, he’s not much of a playmaker and struggles to create opportunities for himself. That became a real problem in Columbus where he only mustered 0.27 expected goals-per-60 for himself, a massive dropoff from the 0.62 range he was at in his prior two seasons with Columbus. His shot has also become a lot less lethal over time at five-on-five. Laine can still snipe on the power play, but over the last three seasons he’s settled in as a 10 percent shooter at five-on-five which is well below his 15.3 percent over his first two seasons. It meant scoring just 1.19 points-per-60, the lowest mark of his career so far and a big reason as to why he ended up with just 24 points in 46 games. That’s a 43-point pace.

If Laine isn’t scoring points then he isn’t doing much else and that’s the problem. It’s why he’s worth just 0.3 wins and that’s actually a step up from last season where he was worth minus-one wins. It’s what happens when you post an abhorrent 38 percent expected goals rate and an even uglier 33 percent actual goals rate. The problem was at both ends of the ice, but defence specifically was a major issue as the Blue Jackets allowed 0.42 more expected goals per 60 with Laine on the ice relative to teammates. That’s the worst of his career and the third worst of any forward last season.

Maybe a new coach can unlock his potential, but I don’t think it was wrong to not give Laine free reign last season just because he has a good shot. He needs to do more and this isn’t about becoming a complete 200-foot player because that shouldn’t be the expectation for a winger with his talent level. It’s about basic competence and being useful outside of scoring. The bar is on the floor and he still can’t reach it.

Columbus Blue Jackets 2021-22 season preview

This is sort of a mediocre article overall but this part is relevant at least.

 

[EspenK]

I'm giving Laine the benefit of the doubt. Hoping for 35+ goal Laine, won't be surprised if he struggles again. New coach, (hopefully system for offense), complementary linemate, not starting in a new city/team. We'll see.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

To pile on:

I'm giving Laine the benefit of the doubt.

While I was not a fan of the player previous to his acquisition in Columbus and was not thrilled that he came here in the PLD trade, I hoped for the best when he came here. And I am also giving him some benefit of the doubt for last season, which was a disaster for most players, and for this season, given the changes made in the offseason.

This doesn't change that it's patently wrong to suggest that, because he is good at scoring goals, we shouldn't fuss about the other aspects of his play.