Patrik Elias Versus Steve Larmer

[DitchMarner]

Who was the better player?

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[streitz]

Larmer

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

elias could play all three forward positions, finished as high as 3rd in the league in scoring, was by far the best offensive player on an offensive powerhouse that over two years finished 1st and 2nd in scoring and made back-to-back finals, including winning a cup. he wasn't as good defensively as larmer, and not nearly as physical, but he was not soft and he was a more than good player on his own side of the ice.

offensive comparison—

elias, ages 21-34 (13 seasons, includes the lockout year)

943 games	333 goals	478 assists	811 points	+199

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

larmer, ages 21-33 (his entire 13 year career minus the seven games he played before he made the league for good)

999 games	441 goals	570 assists	1011 points	+202

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

larmer's entire career was in the '80s and first half of the '90s, with the '95 half-lockout occurring during his last season after he had already started breaking down, while most of elias' career up to when larmer retired was in a much lower scoring environment, with a full lost year landing right in the middle of his peak while also losing half a season to hep c that he contracted while playing abroad during the lockout (when he came back he was scoring at a rate that over a full season would have given him another top ten in points). in year 14, after larmer has already retired, elias finishes 10th in points and makes his fourth stanley cup finals.

in larmer's favour, he was more durable, though obviously he also retired at a far younger age, and he showed in 1991 that he could produce just as well (actually better) without his superstar 120 point center.

but i like elias here. 2000 and 2001 are just too good, and if he gets 2005 back and is healthy in 2006 i don't think this is even a question.


and to bring up a few other players that elias has often been compared to, the problem with larmer is he doesn't have that one high end year to put him over the top, the way we can point at elias in 2001, alfredsson's 2006, hossa's 100 point season, and zetterberg's conn smythe run.

 

[DitchMarner]

I hope people do take the different scoring environments into account when voting. Elias finished in the top ten in scoring three times; Larmer finished in the top ten in scoring once.

 

[streitz]

Larmer was also one of the best defensive forwards to never win a Selke.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i'm not usually one for wouldas and couldas, but this is to show how good elias was offensively, not to give him credit for things he didn't do—

2000: 72 points in 72 games (11th in goals, 21st in points), on pace for 8th in points (tbf, he finished 20th in points/game and was right there in a huge pack of players from 11th to 26th hovering around the point/game mark)

2001: 96 points in 82 games (10th in goals, 9th in assists), 3rd in points (8th in points/game)

2004: 81 points in 82 games (4th in goals, 19th in assists), 6th in points (11th in points/game)

2006: 45 points in 38 games, on pace for 9th in points (12th in points/game, if he qualified)

i don't think we usually consider him in that echelon of offensive players. otoh, with elias one question always bugs me: why wasn't he elite in 2002 and 2003? even if the team was a mess in '02 and it took him some time to get used to pat burns hockey, a player that good should still put up numbers regardless right?


i also think elias not being first team all-star LW in 2004 was one part confusion about position (he received votes at all three positions and finished tied with brad richards for 5th among centers; see also, peak bertuzzi not being a post-season all-star in 2002) and nine parts lazy stats-watching voters.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Larmer was also one of the best defensive forwards to never win a Selke.

yep

 

[Bear of Bad News]

This can be discussed on the History board once both players have enough history to make the conversation interesting.