Patrick Roy's last game in Montreal

[Oowatanite]

What do you guys think of the events that happened on Decenber 2nd 1995. Is Patrick Roy to blame? Or is Mario Tremblay to blame for trying to embarrass Patrick by keeping him in net for 7 goals? Do you think Roy did the right thing and go straight to the owner and say "This is my last games for the Canadians". Also do you think Roy was purposely letting goals in because he was unhappy with the team? Because some of the goals he let in were pretty soft and almost like he wasn't giving it 100%.Thoughts?

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[tarheelhockey]

Both parties are to blame. What a childish series of events.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

I actually remember that game fairly well, even though I was only 8 at the time. Detroit absolutely lit him up worse than anything I've seen in an organized hockey game, let alone the NHL. 12-1 I believe it was? If I remember correctly, the coach wouldn't pull him and Roy stopped looking like he was trying at all. I actually remember thinking to myself he was going to quit that team, lol.

 

[cynicism]

It's difficult to say. I think a large part of the blame should be placed on Tremblay's shoulders. Yes, Roy has an ego the size of the St. Laurence River, but given his status as a starting goaltender (and one of the top 5 in the world at the time) it should've been a no brainer to simply put up with it. Roy played a huge leadership role in his tenure in Montreal and Colorado. Tremblay was pig headed and stupid to try to reign him in.

Was Roy right to demand a trade right away? Probably not. In recent interview's he's stated that he was emotional at the time, and had he been given some time to think it over, he might've reconsidered.

I don't think Roy purposefully played a bad game. He's got such a huge ego and given his track record, I can't see him doing something like that.

The GM (Was it Houle?) also deserves some blame for not getting a better return. I know at the time Thibeault was considered a can't-miss prospect, but giving up him and Keane for Kovalenko and Rucinsky seems a very poor return.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Ronald Corey is most to blame - he hired Houle and Tremblay even though they were completely unqualified. Because he hired two very inexperienced people, it was his responsibility to calm the situation between Tremblay and Roy and he failed badly. All considering, I don't think Houle did that badly in the trade. He was put in an extremely unfair position by Corey, Tremblay and Roy. Amateur hour all way round, but Corey really should have been the one to know better.

 

[Oowatanite]

It's difficult to say. I think a large part of the blame should be placed on Tremblay's shoulders. Yes, Roy has an ego the size of the St. Laurence River, but given his status as a starting goaltender (and one of the top 5 in the world at the time) it should've been a no brainer to simply put up with it. Roy played a huge leadership role in his tenure in Montreal and Colorado. Tremblay was pig headed and stupid to try to reign him in.

Was Roy right to demand a trade right away? Probably not. In recent interview's he's stated that he was emotional at the time, and had he been given some time to think it over, he might've reconsidered.

I don't think Roy purposefully played a bad game. He's got such a huge ego and given his track record, I can't see him doing something like that.

The GM (Was it Houle?) also deserves some blame for not getting a better return. I know at the time Thibeault was considered a can't-miss prospect, but giving up him and Keane for Kovalenko and Rucinsky seems a very poor return.

I agree, they could of got much more for Roy than what they got.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

I agree, they could of got much more for Roy than what they got.

The day Serge Savard got fired, he had a trade worked out with Pierre Lacroix that would have sent Roy to the Av's for Owen Nolan and Stephane Fiset. When Lacroix called Savard's office to confirm the deal, Savard had already been fired.

That would give a pretty good read as to his value at the time. All in all, not that much more than what Houle was able to land.

 

[Oowatanite]

The day Serge Savard got fired, he had a trade worked out with Pierre Lacroix that would have sent Roy to the Av's for Owen Nolan and Stephane Fiset. When Lacroix called Savard's office to confirm the deal, Savard had already been fired.

That would give a pretty good read as to his value at the time. All in all, not that much more than what Houle was able to land.

Didn't know that, thanks for the clarification.

 

[danincanada]

I watched a bit of an episode of "A Day That Changed The Game" on NHL Network and it was about this game and Patrick Roy being traded to the Avs.

I think it was John Garrett who spoke of a conspiracy theory stating the trade was a terrible one for Montreal because they got little in return and that it all went down too quickly in his opinion. He cited that this may have been planned and Pierre Lacroix had a connection with the management in Montreal. It seems very far fetched and that never occurred to me at the time of the trade but it was obvious all along that it was a bad trade for the Canadiens. They traded away their superstar for 2 meh wingers in Kovalenko and Rucinsky and Thibault. Couldn't they get more for Roy than that even though everyone knew they had to trade him?

As a Red Wings fan I can only imagine how it would have turned out if Detroit could have outbidded the Avs and only given up something equivalent. One of the problems may have been that Osgood wasn't from Quebec like Thibault. I don't think the Wings/Avs rivalry would have been close if Roy was a Wing and the Avs only had average goaltending.

 

[Mackee]

I agree that all parties were to blame (Corey more so than anyone), but a rookie GM and head coach certainly didn't help. Especially since (I believe) Tremblay had it in for Roy going back to their days as teammates.

I've also heard that Nolan/Fiset for Roy deal that Savard had on the table before he was fired. Nolan in his prime would have been better than Rucinsky and Kovalenko combined. Though, Rucinsky had a couple of good seasons for the Habs.

Jocelyn Thibault never had a chance here. I still remember the press conference where he looked like a deer caught in the headlights. I thought he was pretty good his first season here all things considered. Not so much afterwards until the Habs signed Andy Moog. The two split time and both were anywhere from good to great on a terrible team.

That trade was the worst day in my life as a Habs fan. I grew up a mega Patrick Roy fan so seeing him get dealt for two middling wingers and a decent young goalie was the worst. Took years for the team to recover as well.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I watched a bit of an episode of "A Day That Changed The Game" on NHL Network and it was about this game and Patrick Roy being traded to the Avs.

I think it was John Garrett who spoke of a conspiracy theory stating the trade was a terrible one for Montreal because they got little in return and that it all went down too quickly in his opinion. He cited that this may have been planned and Pierre Lacroix had a connection with the management in Montreal. It seems very far fetched and that never occurred to me at the time of the trade but it was obvious all along that it was a bad trade for the Canadiens. They traded away their superstar for 2 meh wingers in Kovalenko and Rucinsky and Thibault. Couldn't they get more for Roy than that even though everyone knew they had to trade him?

As a Red Wings fan I can only imagine how it would have turned out if Detroit could have outbidded the Avs and only given up something equivalent. One of the problems may have been that Osgood wasn't from Quebec like Thibault. I don't think the Wings/Avs rivalry would have been close if Roy was a Wing and the Avs only had average goaltending.

To add to this, some even believe that Houle and especially Tremblay were hired so that they would force Roy into demanding a trade because the organization couldn't initiate it themselves. Roy was simply too revered by the fans.
Either way, Tremblay being hired as HC was a major head scratcher at the time. He was the french equivalent of Don Cherry at the time with no coaching experience, let alone head coaching experience and the hate between him and Roy in the media was almost legendary already.
I doubt Lacroix had much to do with actually planning this but I do believe he was told well in advance by Habs management what was going to happen.

 

[danincanada]

To add to this, some even believe that Houle and especially Tremblay were hired so that they would force Roy into demanding a trade because the organization couldn't initiate it themselves. Roy was simply too revered by the fans.
Either way, Tremblay being hired as HC was a major head scratcher at the time. He was the french equivalent of Don Cherry at the time with no coaching experience, let alone head coaching experience and the hate between him and Roy in the media was almost legendary already.
I doubt Lacroix had much to do with actually planning this but I do believe he was told well in advance by Habs management what was going to happen.

But why would management even want to trade their best player? Was it Roy's huge ego, his contract, a good time to try to rebuild? I don't see how trading him would benefit Montreal in the short or long term, considering the package they got in return. None of it makes sense to me from a hockey standpoint.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

all, or at least almost all, star goalies are very proud people. and patrick roy may have been prouder than anyone.

of course you blame tremblay. you coach roy, so you should know what he's like, how to handle him. if every single person watching that game knew you don't do that to patrick roy, what the hell was he thinking?

you also blame roy somewhat. but then again, if he wasn't one of the cockiest and most stubborn SOBs to ever tend goal in the NHL, he probably doesn't retire as one of the very best ever to tend goal in the NHL. so you can't blame him too much, especially given the enormous role he played in handing the city of montreal its last two cups and its last three finals appearances.

and i'd blame the fans too. i know i know, this is what montreal fans are like. but i bet they regretted jeering him six months later, when roy was raising the stanley cup. and i bet they have regretted it every day since.

last month, did you see how visibly angry and shaken luongo got when a reporter suggested to him that fans watching on the arena jumbotron back in vancouver were cheering when he was pulled in game four of the finals? (fans who were at rogers arena that night swear that this didn't actually happen and they were actually cheering schneider. not sure how believable that is.) the point is, when the fanbase turns on their goalie and applauds his humiliation, that relationship changes, sometimes forever.

 

[Rhiessan71]

But why would management even want to trade their best player? Was it Roy's huge ego, his contract, a good time to try to rebuild? I don't see how trading him would benefit Montreal in the short or long term, considering the package they got in return. None of it makes sense to me from a hockey standpoint.

Roy's ego at the time.
He was all but running the team, calling out his D every time they made a mistake, the coaches couldn't implement anything without making sure Roy was on board first.

People keep referring to the deal, that it was so crappy but that's hindsight folks.
The deal at the time was not that bad. Rucinsky was a pretty good player for us, as was Kovalenko in the beginning and Thibeault was a highly rated, very good up and coming goalie at the time.
I was a site bit older than 9 when it happened and I not only remember the game but I still have it on a VHS tape buried in a closet some where. I remember it all too well.
No, we got back what looked like a decent package at the time. Of course there were people that thought we could of gotten better and maybe we could of but that will always be the case.
It's no different to when Chelios was traded for Savard, everyone was tickled as pink to finally have Denis on our team. In hindsight though, letting Chelios go was obviously a bad idea compounded by the fact of learning that we could of had Hawerchuk instead...hindsight folks.

Thibeault was supposed to be the corner piece of the deal with Roy and the only reason the trade looks so bad today is because it was actually Rucinsky that turned out to be the best player for us in the deal and while Martin was good, he wasn't THAT good.
Of course Roy winning the Cup with the Av's that very year didn't help much either heh. Then another one along with the Conn 5 years later to boot...yeah.
Meanwhile, Thibeault struggled under the pressure of playing in Montreal and was a Blackhawk within 3 years.

 

[Oowatanite]

Roy's ego at the time.
He was all but running the team, calling out his D every time they made a mistake, the coaches couldn't implement anything without making sure Roy was on board first.

People keep referring to the deal, that it was so crappy but that's hindsight folks.
The deal at the time was not that bad. Rucinsky was a pretty good player for us, as was Kovalenko in the beginning and Thibeault was a highly rated, very good up and coming goalie at the time.
I was a site bit older than 9 when it happened and I not only remember the game but I still have it on a VHS tape buried in a closet some where. I remember it all too well.
No, we got back what looked like a decent package at the time. Of course there were people that thought we could of gotten better and maybe we could of but that will always be the case.
It's no different to when Chelios was traded for Savard, everyone was tickled as pink to finally have Denis on our team. In hindsight though, letting Chelios go was obviously a bad idea compounded by the fact of learning that we could of had Hawerchuk instead...hindsight folks.

Thibeault was supposed to be the corner piece of the deal with Roy and the only reason the trade looks so bad today is because it was actually Rucinsky that turned out to be the best player for us in the deal and while Martin was good, he wasn't THAT good.

You can watch the entire game on youtube instead of old VHS.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

But why would management even want to trade their best player? Was it Roy's huge ego, his contract, a good time to try to rebuild? I don't see how trading him would benefit Montreal in the short or long term, considering the package they got in return. None of it makes sense to me from a hockey standpoint.

i think a lot of people thought roy was done as an elite player. he hadn't contended for the vezina in three and a half years. he had just had the first losing season of his career and was in jeopardy of a second. he had a lot of miles on his body and had just turned thirty. and thibault actually ended up having better stats and a much better record that year than roy did in montreal.

i am sure montreal fans thought roy was done. re: my previous post, why else would they turn on their last great superstar, who was french, homegrown, and resonated with the province like none other since lafleur? montreal fans might be notoriously fickle, but i think they also know better than to do that to their extremely proud goalie unless they thought there was nothing to lose. if they had known that roy had another eight top seasons in him, they almost certainly would have been chanting tremblay, c'est merde.

as for the trade, definitely houle should have done better, devalued asset or not. a better GM would have been more patient and waited for a contender to crack as the trade deadline approached. in the history of this league, a proven playoff goalie of that calibre has never come on the open market. one could argue actually that another proven playoff goalie of roy's caliber has never existed in the history of this league.

that said, thibault was the best goaltending prospect since jimmy waite. that sounds funny now, but it meant something back in '95. he was considered the most talented young goalie in the game, with a higher upside than felix potvin, who at the time looked like he was on his way to a potential hall of fame career.

not only was thibault french, he was coming off a 12-2-2 season in quebec as fiset's back up and he stole fiset's starting job in the playoffs. a good case can be made that thibault had at least as much value to the habs then as nolan did, and kovalenko and rucinsky had more value than fiset, who was thought to be an average starter at best and ended up being less than that.

EDIT: when the deal was announced, i actually laughed. my favourite team up to '93 was the habs, so i was sad. but my second favourite team in the first half of the 90s was the nordiques (first after montreal, then after vancouver), so i was also happy.

but you had to be there to know the genuine shock, not just because of the objective value of the return, which looked better then than it does now. but also because the avs had so much top young talent-- sakic, forsberg, ozolinsh, kamensky, ricci (who at the time was regarded as a slam dunk future all-star first line center stuck behind two even better guys), even adam deadmarsh. to have only gotten thibault and two guys who were at best colorado's 7th and 8th best fowrards seemed ridiculous compared to what lacroix had given up a year earlier to get wendel clark.

the morning of the trade, if you had told any knowledgeable fan that roy was traded to the avs and asked what they thought the return was, the answer probably would have been either 1. forsberg, or 2. thibault, ricci, and kamensky, or 3. thibault, kovalenko, rucinsky, AND ricci.

 

[Rhiessan71]

You can watch the entire game on youtube instead of old VHS.

I know, hence why the tape is buried somewhere. Just saying that I was reviewing that game many times, long before Youtube or the NHL network were around.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Tremblay is an idiot ,and Corey is someone I would very like to punch multiple times in the face without any pity.

I don't blame Roy at all , Roy gave us so much , he was entitled to have a big ego , while Tremblay , while a good player with heart , was just a 3rd liner all of his career.Roy's ego probably gave us 2 cups.

Patrick Roy is my favorite personality , he is one real SOB , coming back to his root in quebec aftr his career riding the bus for his passion and the quebec junior players despite facing multiple controversies even involving his own sons.The guy is a strong person deserving of respect and in my humble opinion the greatest winner in all of hockey history.

Fun fact about Roy , he was born the exact same day as Mario Lemieux.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Tremblay is an idiot ,and Corey is someone I would very like to punch multiple times in the face without any pity.

I don't blame Roy at all , Roy gave us so much , he was entitled to have a big ego , while Tremblay , while a good player with heart , was just a 3rd liner all of his career.Roy's ego probably gave us 2 cups.

Patrick Roy is my favorite personality , he is one real SOB , coming back to his root in quebec aftr his career riding the bus for his passion and the quebec junior players despite facing multiple controversies even involving his own sons.The guy is a strong person deserving of respect and in my humble opinion the greatest winner in all of hockey history.

Fun fact aout Roy , he was born the exact same day as Mario Lemieux.

Oh agreed, one of my favorites too and my comments about his ego were just how management saw it, not how I saw it.
I was 25 at time and it was about as close to openly weeping as I have come in my adult life. Richard's 20 minute ovation and Koivu's return from Cancer close seconds.

I still have hopes that we will one day see Roy as either the coach or GM or the Habs.

 

[danincanada]

Fun fact about Roy , he was born the exact same day as Mario Lemieux.

I always thought that was amazing. What are the odds of arguably the greatest forward and greatest goalie of all-time being born on the same day, one in Montreal and the other in Quebec City?

 

[Oowatanite]

i think a lot of people thought roy was done as an elite player. he hadn't contended for the vezina in three and a half years. he had just had the first losing season of his career and was in jeopardy of a second. he had a lot of miles on his body and had just turned thirty. and thibault actually ended up having better stats and a much better record that year than roy did in montreal.

i am sure montreal fans thought roy was done. re: my previous post, why else would they turn on their last great superstar, who was french, homegrown, and resonated with the province like none other since lafleur? montreal fans might be notoriously fickle, but i think they also know better than to do that to their extremely proud goalie unless they thought there was nothing to lose. if they had known that roy had another eight top seasons in him, they almost certainly would have been chanting tremblay, c'est merde.

as for the trade, definitely houle should have done better, devalued asset or not. a better GM would have been more patient and waited for a contender to crack as the trade deadline approached. in the history of this league, a proven playoff goalie of that calibre has never come on the open market. one could argue actually that another proven playoff goalie of roy's caliber has never existed in the history of this league.

that said, thibault was the best goaltending prospect since jimmy waite. that sounds funny now, but it meant something back in '95. he was considered the most talented young goalie in the game, with a higher upside than felix potvin, who at the time looked like he was on his way to a potential hall of fame career.

not only was thibault french, he was coming off a 12-2-2 season in quebec as fiset's back up and he stole fiset's starting job in the playoffs. a good case can be made that thibault had at least as much value to the habs then as nolan did, and kovalenko and rucinsky had more value than fiset, who was thought to be an average starter at best and ended up being less than that.

EDIT: when the deal was announced, i actually laughed. my favourite team up to '93 was the habs, so i was sad. but my second favourite team in the first half of the 90s was the nordiques (first after montreal, then after vancouver), so i was also happy.

but you had to be there to know the genuine shock, not just because of the objective value of the return, which looked better then than it does now. but also because the avs had so much top young talent-- sakic, forsberg, ozolinsh, kamensky, ricci (who at the time was regarded as a slam dunk future all-star first line center stuck behind two even better guys), even adam deadmarsh. to have only gotten thibault and two guys who were at best colorado's 7th and 8th best fowrards seemed ridiculous compared to what lacroix had given up a year earlier to get wendel clark.

the morning of the trade, if you had told any knowledgeable fan that roy was traded to the avs and asked what they thought the return was, the answer probably would have been either 1. forsberg, or 2. thibault, ricci, and kamensky, or 3. thibault, kovalenko, rucinsky, AND ricci.

Your first statement is false. He was 3rd in Vezina trophy voting in 1993-94 behind Vanbiesbrouck and Hasek.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

I also recall Ed Belfour having a similar type of blowup in Dallas, but fortunately for the Stars they had people in charge that could soothe the situation between the star goalie with the massive ego and the stubborn egomaniacal coach.

I bet if Boiven and Gainey had been in charge of the Habs at the time, they would have massaged the situation and Roy would have stayed, and the team could deal him at a later date if they deemed it necessary, but on their own terms and when the best deal presented itself. Roy himself stated he thought that they were going to go this route and was suprised they called his bluff.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Your first statement is false. He was 3rd in Vezina trophy voting in 1993-94 behind Vanbiesbrouck and Hasek.

depends what you mean by "contended," i guess. in my opinion, '94 was a two-horse race.

VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 99 (15-8-0); John Vanbiesbrouck 64 (6-10-4); Patrick Roy 34 (3-3-10)

 

[Fish on The Sand]

depends what you mean by "contended," i guess. in my opinion, '94 was a two-horse race.

VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 99 (15-8-0); John Vanbiesbrouck 64 (6-10-4); Patrick Roy 34 (3-3-10)

The fact he was still able to finish in the top 3 of vezina voting would indicate he was still an elite goaltender would it not?

 

[Fish on The Sand]

I also recall Ed Belfour having a similar type of blowup in Dallas, but fortunately for the Stars they had people in charge that could soothe the situation between the star goalie with the massive ego and the stubborn egomaniacal coach.

I bet if Boiven and Gainey had been in charge of the Habs at the time, they would have massaged the situation and Roy would have stayed, and the team could deal him at a later date if they deemed it necessary, but on their own terms and when the best deal presented itself. Roy himself stated he thought that they were going to go this route and was suprised they called his bluff.

Just look at how Gainey smoothed over the Kovalev situation after the disastrous 2007 season. Kovalev responded with one of the best seasons in his career and followed that up with another pretty good year. I would imagine if we had somebody as experienced and calm as Gainey in 1995 we would have probably kept Roy on the team.