Past Playoff Performances

[tiburon12]

In general, if you compare the Sharks to winning teams teams in the past, the gap in goal shares with their top players on the ice has been larger than the gap in goal shares with their depth players on the ice. In other words, our depth guys have played more comparably to the depth players on successful teams than our top players have played comparably to the top players on other teams.

The team’s 5V5 GF% with Thornton on the ice, in the playoffs, over the past ~12 years is about the same as it is with Thornton on the bench. IIRC, it might actually be lower. Those numbers may be inaccurately unflattering to some degree, but they still tell a big part of the story.

At 5-on-5, the Sharks held even with the Penguins with Thornton on the bench; it was on the ice where he got crushed.

what is the breakdown of Thornton on the ice pre and post Hertl injury?

 

[DG93]

......

Lucky for Crosby that he gets to play with Conor Sheary and have legendary depth players Evan Rodrigues and Jared McCann behind him. We need to ask ourselves how inflated Austin Matthews's stats are from playing with Zach Hyman and in front of Kyle Clifford and Alexander Kerfoot.



This comes down to narrative-picking. Jumbo's line was horrible not because it was babying Dillon-Polak, but because Pittsburgh shut down Thornton-Pavelski. Dillon-Polak aren't the reason the Sharks lost the series; Thornton, Pavelski, and Burns going cold is the reason. Let me give you a hypothetical:

1) Sharks get Maatta-Lovejoy (Pittsburgh's second pairing); Penguins get Dillon-Polak.
or
2) Sharks get Evgeni Malkin (their second-line center); Penguins get Thornton.

Under #1, I think it is a serious question whether or not the outcome really changes
Under #2, the only serious question is what the parade route in San Jose will be.

When your top players win their matchups, they create the room for everyone else on the roster. Joe Thornton has gotten his teeth kicked in by Rob Niedermayer and Jarred Stoll...not to mention Toews, Kopitar, or Getzlaf. That creates a huge gap for your bottom lines to overcome. If your depth players are supposed to make your top players look better, then what does being a top player even mean?

When top lines shut each other down, depth determines the outcome of a series, so it is incredibly important. What you are saying I think is that the Sharks’ top players haven’t been able to play to that stalemate (let alone dominate) consistently where good depth would make a difference. Am I understanding that correctly? I’d argue that 2013 was one instance where the top-6s canceled each other out and our depth sucked, but I agree with you overall I think lol.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Who knows what happens in the rest of the playoffs but I still feel that the b.s. suspension of Torres in round 2 vs LA cost us that series in 2013. It went to 7 games and every game but one after the suspension was a one goal game. Torres was an absolute force on the forecheck and was causing turnovers at will after we acquired him. Who knows if we beat Chicago and/or Boston afterwards but I definitely think we knock out LA.

Nevermind the fact that the suspension not only didn't meet the criteria for the hit at the time it also violated the cba. Suspensions for the remainder of a series weren't allowed.

 

[Pavelski2112]

Nevermind the fact that the suspension not only didn't meet the criteria for the hit at the time it also violated the cba. Suspensions for the remainder of a series weren't allowed.

They literally changed the rule in the offseason to cover for their asses. One of the most bullshit suspensions I've ever seen.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

They literally changed the rule in the offseason to cover for their asses. One of the most bullshit suspensions I've ever seen.

Yep. Then Wilson got a huge fine for sounding off on it. Don't know if uncle Gary and his exploding head ever forgave DW for having the audacity to call them out.

 

[stator]

Several reasons come to mind.

1 - big holes in our team design. Never had the goalie, defense and forward depth on the same team at once. For most of it, defense wasn't there. (Reason for all the fireplug trades like polak)

2 - too clean of a team. Our team culture has been to play fair. When the zebras put the whistles away, it has favored our opponents more than us. (As an example, Blues head hunting without ramifications. ).

3 - coaching. Great coaches make systems to maximize strengths of the roster and to exploit the weaknesses of the other teams. They also adjust quickly. Team teal has not had that, IMO, ever.

I agree with the 3 bulleted items above with some details:

1- The Sharks never had a goalie that could consistently rise to the occasion in the playoffs. Pittsburg did, but that was the year Jones had his best streak in the playoffs. Never came close afterwords... by several country miles.

2- The Kings did well to exploit the zebras swallowing their whistles in the playoffs and is a major reason why they won two cups. The Sharks on the other hand could never play that game as the zebras seem to never give them the same benefit. I.e. Torres' hit which we see many times not called in the playoffs and was not a direct hit to the head (the tape proved that). And even in that Blues series you mention, the Sharks were called on hits.

3- The coaching tandem of TMac and PDB wasted the team's talent. PDB's only good year was his first year where there was not enough time to fully implement his system, ironically. Thus, he did maximize the strengths of the roster, but then did what TMac always did here. Which was to pound square pegs into round holes.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Yep. Then Wilson got a huge fine for sounding off on it. Don't know if uncle Gary and his exploding head ever forgave DW for having the audacity to call them out.

I think that's obvious. No suspensions for any Sharks getting hurt and some of the most unjustifiable suspensions I've ever seen against. Especially where it concerns Kane. Jumbo also got one in the playoffs recently that was hilariously unjustified.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I agree with the 3 bulleted items above with some details:

1- The Sharks never had a goalie that could consistently rise to the occasion in the playoffs. Pittsburg did, but that was the year Jones had his best streak in the playoffs. Never came close afterwords... by several country miles.

2- The Kings did well to exploit the zebras swallowing their whistles in the playoffs and is a major reason why they won two cups. The Sharks on the other hand could never play that game as the zebras seem to never give them the same benefit. I.e. Torres' hit which we see many times not called in the playoffs and was not a direct hit to the head (the tape proved that). And even in that Blues series you mention, the Sharks were called on hits.

3- The coaching tandem of TMac and PDB wasted the team's talent. PDB's only good year was his first year where there was not enough time to fully implement his system, ironically. Thus, he did maximize the strengths of the roster, but then did what TMac always did here. Which was to pound square pegs into round holes.

To add insult to injury, the guy Torres hit to get suspended there laid almost the identical hit in a later round and wasn't suspended.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Who knows what happens in the rest of the playoffs but I still feel that the b.s. suspension of Torres in round 2 vs LA cost us that series in 2013. It went to 7 games and every game but one after the suspension was a one goal game. Torres was an absolute force on the forecheck and was causing turnovers at will after we acquired him. Who knows if we beat Chicago and/or Boston afterwards but I definitely think we knock out LA.

Jesus... watching that again. That's not even illegal now. Shoulder on shoulder. What a travesty.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

......

Lucky for Crosby that he gets to play with Conor Sheary and have legendary depth players Evan Rodrigues and Jared McCann behind him. We need to ask ourselves how inflated Austin Matthews's stats are from playing with Zach Hyman and in front of Kyle Clifford and Alexander Kerfoot.



This comes down to narrative-picking. Jumbo's line was horrible not because it was babying Dillon-Polak, but because Pittsburgh shut down Thornton-Pavelski. Dillon-Polak aren't the reason the Sharks lost the series; Thornton, Pavelski, and Burns going cold is the reason. Let me give you a hypothetical:

1) Sharks get Maatta-Lovejoy (Pittsburgh's second pairing); Penguins get Dillon-Polak.
or
2) Sharks get Evgeni Malkin (their second-line center); Penguins get Thornton.

Under #1, I think it is a serious question whether or not the outcome really changes
Under #2, the only serious question is what the parade route in San Jose will be.

When your top players win their matchups, they create the room for everyone else on the roster. Joe Thornton has gotten his teeth kicked in by Rob Niedermayer and Jarred Stoll...not to mention Toews, Kopitar, or Getzlaf. That creates a huge gap for your bottom lines to overcome. If your depth players are supposed to make your top players look better, then what does being a top player even mean?

That penguins team had 3 different 1st line elite players playing on 3 different lines along with complimentary players that had speed and skill. Once Hertl went down the Sharks lacked the depth to manage that disparity. Didn't Crosby have only 1 or maybe 2 points in that finals? It's almost always about depth. This case was no different.

 

[WSS11]

Jesus... watching that again. That's not even illegal now. Shoulder on shoulder. What a travesty.

Agreed..Most of the hits the Blues threw in the playoffs last year were worst than the Torres hit. The department of player safety is a joke.

 

[ChompChomp]

Agreed..Most of the hits the Blues threw in the playoffs last year were worst than the Torres hit. The department of player safety is a joke.

Out of all conspiracy theories about things going on today on Planet Earth, I think one of the more believable ones is that George Parros has a bias against the Sharks. I also don't think ex-enforcers should head up DOPS.

 

[WSS11]

Out of all conspiracy theories about things going on today on Planet Earth, I think one of the more believable ones is that George Parros has a bias against the Sharks. I also don't think ex-enforcers should head up DOPS.

Agreed..It should be by committee as well.

 

[Barrie22]

Agreed..It should be by committee as well.

Yes should be a 10 person committee. Of exp players, ex/current gm's, and maybe analysts.

 

[Nolan11]

Yes should be a 10 person committee. Of exp players, ex/current gm's, and maybe analysts.

Add a doctor or three

 

[tiburon12]

Who knows what happens in the rest of the playoffs but I still feel that the b.s. suspension of Torres in round 2 vs LA cost us that series in 2013. It went to 7 games and every game but one after the suspension was a one goal game. Torres was an absolute force on the forecheck and was causing turnovers at will after we acquired him. Who knows if we beat Chicago and/or Boston afterwards but I definitely think we knock out LA.

i never noticed doughty do an axe-throwing, two-hand chop to Marleau like that. Would have been huge if he had connected

 

[OrrNumber4]

When top lines shut each other down, depth determines the outcome of a series, so it is incredibly important. What you are saying I think is that the Sharks’ top players haven’t been able to play to that stalemate (let alone dominate) consistently where good depth would make a difference. Am I understanding that correctly? I’d argue that 2013 was one instance where the top-6s canceled each other out and our depth sucked, but I agree with you overall I think lol.

Yes, it would be fair to see that as the top players cancel each other out, it becomes more important how good your secondary/tertiary/etc. players are. And yes, for the most part the Sharks’s top players have been curb-stomped so the depth becomes largely irrelevant.

I don’t even think that 2013 is an example of that. Kopitar, Doughty, and Kopitar drove Thornton, Marleau, and Boyle into the ground.

That penguins team had 3 different 1st line elite players playing on 3 different lines along with complimentary players that had speed and skill. Once Hertl went down the Sharks lacked the depth to manage that disparity. Didn't Crosby have only 1 or maybe 2 points in that finals? It's almost always about depth. This case was no different.

That isn’t depth; that is deployment. They had first-liners on three different lines because they could put their third and fourth liners on the first and second lines. Why would they do this? Because Malkin and Crosby could carry those players and make everyone more deadly...they literally made the depth players look better.

That’s not something the Sharks have really done. Their best players often play together, and still routinely get curb-stomped by the other teams’ mixed lines. In 2006, Thornton had Ekman and Chechen on his wings and lost his matchups to Raffi Torres...that’s why DW went out and got Bell that offseason.