Parise/Zajack Vs. Carter/Richards...

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FlyersFan10*

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flyerfreak941 said:
Gino Pisellini will be better then them all ;)
Pisellini, what a waste of a draft pick. About as much of a waste as Rob Bellamy was. I see no future for Bellamy in Philadelphia. For Paul Holmgren to even remotely suggest that Bellamy was a lot like Recchi was a slap to the face of Mark Recchi. Why the Flyers didn't draft Evan McGrath is beyond me.
 

paxtang

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FlyersFan10 said:
Pisellini, what a waste of a draft pick. About as much of a waste as Rob Bellamy was. I see no future for Bellamy in Philadelphia. For Paul Holmgren to even remotely suggest that Bellamy was a lot like Recchi was a slap to the face of Mark Recchi. Why the Flyers didn't draft Evan McGrath is beyond me.

I actually heard pretty good things about Bellamy's play this year.
 

CharlieGirl

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flyerfreak941 said:
Gino Pisellini will be better then them all ;)
He's the Flyers equivalent of the Devils' Cam Janssen, except that Janssen is a lot more fun to watch. If they're both in the AHL (and I think Janssen's got a better shot there), they'll have the Flyers/Devils thing going as well.
 

God Bless Canada

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I think Carter and Richards are the better tandem, but it's not as much of a gulf as everyone thinks. Personally, I think all four rank among the top-50 prospects in the world.

Parise, is, IMO, the best of the bunch. He's over 50 points as a rookie in the AHL, even though he lacks a strong supporting cast in Albany. I think he'll one day be a prototypical small forward in the league. Not only does he have the potential to score in the 70-80 point range in the NHL, but he has heart, grit, defensive awareness and leadership abilities. Not afraid to go into the high traffic areas. I project Zajac as a respectable, two-way, second line centre who can play in all situations.

Carter isn't far behind. At his peak, I see him as what Keith Primeau was a few years ago: a power centre capable of 70 points and controlling the game. Richards is, in my opinion, the best leader of any prospect out there. Solid offensive potential, too, could be good for 50-60 points. The type of person who will captain a team to a Stanley Cup.

Those who think that this is a cakewalk for Philly's two centres will be sorely mistaken. No doubt that Philly and New Jersey own a couple of the best 1-2 centre prospect punches in the game.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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God Bless Canada said:
I think Carter and Richards are the better tandem, but it's not as much of a gulf as everyone thinks. Personally, I think all four rank among the top-50 prospects in the world.

Parise, is, IMO, the best of the bunch. He's over 50 points as a rookie in the AHL, even though he lacks a strong supporting cast in Albany. I think he'll one day be a prototypical small forward in the league. Not only does he have the potential to score in the 70-80 point range in the NHL, but he has heart, grit, defensive awareness and leadership abilities. Not afraid to go into the high traffic areas. I project Zajac as a respectable, two-way, second line centre who can play in all situations.

Carter isn't far behind. At his peak, I see him as what Keith Primeau was a few years ago: a power centre capable of 70 points and controlling the game. Richards is, in my opinion, the best leader of any prospect out there. Solid offensive potential, too, could be good for 50-60 points. The type of person who will captain a team to a Stanley Cup.

Those who think that this is a cakewalk for Philly's two centres will be sorely mistaken. No doubt that Philly and New Jersey own a couple of the best 1-2 centre prospect punches in the game.
1/2/3 punch you mean:

Parise, Zajac, Vrana
Carter, Richards, Umberger

Scary depth up the middle.
 

God Bless Canada

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No, I mean 1-2 punch. I'm not sold on Umberger. I think the kid has the talent to be a very good NHL player, but not the drive. He's a floater. He's a Chris Gratton type: a player who shows a lot of talent to go with his size, but is too inconsistent to be a top six forward, and isn't strong enough in his own zone to play on the third line, thus will either be a fourth liner, or will wind up toiling in the bush leagues. (Umberger's points and especially his +/- are largely a reflection of the talent around him).
 

Jason MacIsaac

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God Bless Canada said:
No, I mean 1-2 punch. I'm not sold on Umberger. I think the kid has the talent to be a very good NHL player, but not the drive. He's a floater. He's a Chris Gratton type: a player who shows a lot of talent to go with his size, but is too inconsistent to be a top six forward, and isn't strong enough in his own zone to play on the third line, thus will either be a fourth liner, or will wind up toiling in the bush leagues. (Umberger's points and especially his +/- are largely a reflection of the talent around him).
Fine.....Sharpe. He has 3rd liner writen all over him.
 

FlyersFan10*

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God Bless Canada said:
No, I mean 1-2 punch. I'm not sold on Umberger. I think the kid has the talent to be a very good NHL player, but not the drive. He's a floater. He's a Chris Gratton type: a player who shows a lot of talent to go with his size, but is too inconsistent to be a top six forward, and isn't strong enough in his own zone to play on the third line, thus will either be a fourth liner, or will wind up toiling in the bush leagues. (Umberger's points and especially his +/- are largely a reflection of the talent around him).

I'll excuse your ignorance on Umberger because he's been everything and then some for the Phantoms. If you've read anything that the coach John Stevens has said about Umberger then you'd know that Umberger has probably been the best forward on the Phantoms this year. He's been consistent and he's done everything the organization has ever asked of him.

Even Flyers brass have admitted Umberger's play has been great for someone who hadn't played hockey in a year. Amazing what happens when you go to an organization who wants you how much your play will improve. Vancouver low balled Umberger throughout their negotiations, the Rangers just wanted to pick him up so they could get the second round pick for losing Umberger.

Anyways, he's been a very good player for the Phantoms and will probably be a good player for the Flyers as well.
 

Colt.45Orr

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mooseOAK said:
Carter isn't an especially strong player physically which will be a handicap in a conference that has a lot of physical play. When there was a thread comparing Carter to Getzlaf I preferred the latter for that reason.

Holy Crap... I agree with mooseOAK...

I too would take Getzlaf over Carter... of course that is going to mean that some Philly fans will start to run down Getzlaf.... but, oh well....
 

BlackJack21

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John Flyers Fan said:
I've never seen Zajac play, so I won't comment on him, but I certainly wouldn't trade Carter/Richards for Parise/Zajac.

I'm not sure if any team has two prospects that I'd trade Carter/Richards for.

Definately pittsburg and washington....
 

FlyersFan10*

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Colt.45Orr said:
Holy Crap... I agree with mooseOAK...

I too would take Getzlaf over Carter... of course that is going to mean that some Philly fans will start to run down Getzlaf.... but, oh well....

No, actually some of Philly fans will not run down Getzlaf. I really like Ryan Getzlaf, but he fills a need more in Anaheim than he would in Philadelphia. Anaheim needs some bangers with talent. We have bangers, but we need talent. That's where Carter comes in. Doesn't bug me that he isn't a heavy hitter. I've always thought that hitting was an overrated part of the game. I have no trouble with a sound positional player with offensive skills to go with it. And that's what Carter is.
 

DownFromNJ

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I don't think the comparison is fair.


Carter, Richards, and Parise all were 2003 draftees. Zajac is a 2004 draftee.

At this point, Carter and Parise are close (I'm a Parise fan, have been since before the draft, but the argument can go either way). Richards is way ahead of Zajac because he's older, has played at a higher level, and has played very well. A year from now, Zajac could very well be the best of the four, or stay where he is.

I expect big things from all four, but Zajac has the chance to be the best one. He's got amazing skill, work ethic, and hockey sense.
 

CH Wizard

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One thing is sure , Zajac is underrated over here.Have you guys seen him play ? I have , he led his team to the frozen four.I think Zajac has all the tools to perform in the NHL , not a lot of prospects have that.He has good size , nice skills (his wrist shot is so quick and he sees the ice so well) , he's a good all around player.I've really been impressed by him.

but I'd still take Carter and Richards over Zajac and Parise.It's close imo.Parise is a better prospect then Richards right now.Richards has better tools to perform in the NHL but Parise is still a good all around play and he's more skilled.Richards has future captain written all over him.Carter is better then Zajac , no need to explain.
 

Le Golie

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The Great One said:
One thing is sure , Zajac is underrated over here.Have you guys seen him play ? I have , he led his team to the frozen four.I think Zajac has all the tools to perform in the NHL , not a lot of prospects have that.He has good size , good playmaking skills , he's a good all around player.I've really been impressed by him.

but I'd still take Carter and Richards over Zajac and Parise.It's close imo.Parise is a better prospect then Richards right now.Richards has better tools to perform in the NHL but Parise is still a good all around play and he's more skilled.Richards has future captain written all over him.Carter is better then Zajac , no need to explain.

I don't underrate Zajac at all. I agree he does have all the tools and he should be a good NHLer. I see no reason to think otherwise. However comparing him to Carter is a bit unfair. I don't think he'll ever be at that level. But there is no doubt in my mind he is showing he can be a good 2nd line player. Expectations shouldn't be higher than that.
 

mooseOAK*

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FlyersFan10 said:
No, actually some of Philly fans will not run down Getzlaf. I really like Ryan Getzlaf, but he fills a need more in Anaheim than he would in Philadelphia. Anaheim needs some bangers with talent. We have bangers, but we need talent. That's where Carter comes in. Doesn't bug me that he isn't a heavy hitter. I've always thought that hitting was an overrated part of the game. I have no trouble with a sound positional player with offensive skills to go with it. And that's what Carter is.
But not a future superstar, which is what we are all being led to believe.

It isn't about hitting people it is about being able to take on defencemen physically. The few times in the WJC that Carter had to battle a defenceman close to his size he had difficulties whereas Getzlaf did not.
 

JimEIV

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Le Golie said:
I don't think he'll ever be at that level. But there is no doubt in my mind he is showing he can be a good 2nd line player. Expectations shouldn't be higher than that.


I am not argueing here, I just curious to know your justification. Zajac is showing he can be a "good 2nd liner"???

What more could he have done thus far?

He came into a National Champion caliber hockey team and leads them in goal scoring, centers their number #1 line and is the 1st line center on the PK AS A FRESHMAN! And that says to you only 2nd line potential?


A glance at some Freshman years:


Zach Parise 2002-03 U. of North Dakota NCAA 39 26 35 61

Mike Cammalleri 1999-00 U. of Michigan NCAA 39 13 13 26

Dany Heatly 1999-00 U. of Wisconsin NCAA 38 28 28 56

Chris Drury 1994-95 Boston University NCAA 39 12 15 27

Drew Stafford 2003-04 U. of North Dakota NCAA 36 11 21 32

Mike Comrie 1998-99 U. of Michigan NCAA 42 19 25 44

Brendan Morrison 1993-94 U. of Michigan NCAA 38 20 28 48

Travis Zajac 2005-05 U. of North Dakota NCAA 43 17 19 36
 

DARKSIDE

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JimEIV said:
I am not argueing here, I just curious to know your justification. Zajac is showing he can be a "good 2nd liner"???

What more could he have done thus far?

He came into a National Champion caliber hockey team and leads them in goal scoring, centers their number #1 line and is the 1st line center on the PK AS A FRESHMAN! And that says to you only 2nd line potential?


A glance at some Freshman years:


Zach Parise 2002-03 U. of North Dakota NCAA 39 26 35 61

Mike Cammalleri 1999-00 U. of Michigan NCAA 39 13 13 26

Dany Heatly 1999-00 U. of Wisconsin NCAA 38 28 28 56

Chris Drury 1994-95 Boston University NCAA 39 12 15 27

Drew Stafford 2003-04 U. of North Dakota NCAA 36 11 21 32

Mike Comrie 1998-99 U. of Michigan NCAA 42 19 25 44

Brendan Morrison 1993-94 U. of Michigan NCAA 38 20 28 48

Travis Zajac 2005-05 U. of North Dakota NCAA 43 17 19 36

Man, one heck of a year by Parise. I don't believe he get's the proper respect as a blue chip prospect! :shakehead
 

God Bless Canada

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Let's keep in mind that Zajac is a year older than most of those players were in their rookie years. In Cammalleri's case, he's two years older. (Cammer was a sophomore when he was drafted).

Also keep in mind that Zajac and Carter are both 1985-born players. Carter is a two-time WJC all-star. Zajac couldn't even get an invite to the final selection camp.

As I stated before, Zajac is one of the top 50 drafted prospects in the world, IMO. He'll be a solid, two-way, second line centre. He'll play for a long time in the NHL. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't start comparing him to Carter.
 

Le Golie

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JimEIV said:
I am not argueing here, I just curious to know your justification. Zajac is showing he can be a "good 2nd liner"???

What more could he have done thus far?

He came into a National Champion caliber hockey team and leads them in goal scoring, centers their number #1 line and is the 1st line center on the PK AS A FRESHMAN! And that says to you only 2nd line potential?

Have you seen much of him? He's puting up very good numbers and he has taken on a huge role and while that is very encouraging, it doesn't really tell the whole story.

First off he comes from a weak draft class where only two players have pure first line futures. The rest have lower expectations. Now right away you are going to say 'what does that have to do with Zajac's potential' and I'll just say that while it is by no means a concrete look into the future, it should put things in context. If the draft were held again this season he'd probably be picked in the top 10, but there are a few forwards with 2nd line futures that would likely be picked ahead of him. Andrew Ladd, Petteri Nokelainan, Alexander Radulov, etc.

While he is good offensively, I don't think he is elite. I like his ability around the net but on an average NHL team I don't think he'll be a top three forward. In fact I'd be shocked.

Also, he is big, strong and good defensively. While that should never work against someone, his development could be geared towards that role. I don't think the Devils have any unrealistic expectations for him. While it would be awesome to see him turn into an elite forward I really don't think that's what anyone has in mind.
 
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Jason MacIsaac

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Le Golie said:
Have you seen much of him? He's puting up very good numbers and he has taken on a huge role and while that is very encouraging, it doesn't really tell the whole story.

First off he comes from a weak draft class where only two players have pure first line futures. The rest have lower expectations. Now right away you are going to say 'what does that have to do with Zajac's potential' and I'll just say that while it is by no means a concrete look into the future, it should put things in context. If the draft were held again this season he'd probably be picked in the top 10, but there are a few forwards with 2nd line futures that would likely be picked ahead of him. Andrew Ladd, Petteri Nokelainan, Alexander Radulov, etc.

While he is good offensively, I don't think he is elite. I like his ability around the net but on an average NHL team I don't think he'll be a top three forward. In fact I'd be shocked.

Also, he is big, strong and good defensively. While that should never work against someone, his development could be geared towards that role. I don't think the Devils have any unrealistic expectations for him. While it would be awesome to see him turn into an elite forward I really don't think that's what anyone has in mind.
You are underating his offensive ability. Zajac isn't evena pure goal scorer, his main offensive weapon is his vision and playmaking ability but for some odd reason NoDak has no scorers. Spirko is a playmaker as well and Stafford has a hard time finishing. Instea of being a playmaking center he has been forced to take the role of the go to guy in terms of scoring.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Le Golie said:
I hope so, but my gut feeling is that some people are starting to over rate it.
I think his scoring is being overated. He isn't a scorer and never really will light the lamp all that well. I only hope he becomes a Rod Brind`Amour type center.
 

salzy

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mooseOAK said:
But not a future superstar, which is what we are all being led to believe.

It isn't about hitting people it is about being able to take on defencemen physically. The few times in the WJC that Carter had to battle a defenceman close to his size he had difficulties whereas Getzlaf did not.

Flyer-envy has really spread like a disease among Leaf fans the last few years.
 
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