Parise or Vanek?

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Vlad The Impaler

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DownFromNJ said:
Nope, because both have had equal PPGs so far (.7). By the end of the season, Parise will outscore Vanek. He always has, and he always will.

Face it, your earlier "any questions" statement was total precocious garbage based on a small sample of game. It looked dumb then and now, its only worth is as a mild source of entertainment.
 

velimiiro

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Face it, your earlier "any questions" statement was total precocious garbage based on a small sample of game. It looked dumb then and now, its only worth is as a mild source of entertainment.

rofl

BURN.
 

Hobey Baker

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velimiiro said:
I choose Parise EASILYYYYYY
Just curious to know- how is it "easyyyy" to pick between the two? I don't think it's very cut and dry. Parise had 116 points in two years at NoDak. Vanek had 113 in the same span, plus a national title and a Frozen Four MVP. Vanek played extremely well against pro competition at last year's World Championships (something Pavel Brendl NEVER did), while Parise was a dominating force at the World Juniors. This year in the "Eh", a mere two points separate the two (Vanek 17, Parise 15). Easy decision? :dunno:

To me, it's a tough proposition and comes down to what your team needs are. If your team is desperately lacking a pure scoring threat with pro size, you side with Vanek. If you need a natural leader with a high level of skill in all areas, you take Parise. Parise's work ethic seems to equate to him being a solid NHLer, but Vanek's scouting report suggests he just might be able to pull off more serious offensive numbers despite his "floating". It's all potential right now....

I think they both may have an impact at the NHL level, and I actually like Parise more as a worker bee. I just don't see how one can say that it's an easy decision with their numbers being so similar.
 

velimiiro

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Kris Baker said:
Just curious to know- how is it "easyyyy" to pick between the two? I don't think it's very cut and dry. Parise had 116 points in two years at NoDak. Vanek had 113 in the same span, plus a national title and a Frozen Four MVP. Vanek played extremely well against pro competition at last year's World Championships (something Pavel Brendl NEVER did), while Parise was a dominating force at the World Juniors. This year in the "Eh", a mere two points separate the two (Vanek 17, Parise 15). Easy decision? :dunno:

To me, it's a tough proposition and comes down to what your team needs are. If your team is desperately lacking a pure scoring threat with pro size, you side with Vanek. If you need a natural leader with a high level of skill in all areas, you take Parise. Parise's work ethic seems to equate to him being a solid NHLer, but Vanek's scouting report suggests he just might be able to pull off more serious offensive numbers despite his "floating". It's all potential right now....

I think they both may have an impact at the NHL level, and I actually like Parise more as a worker bee. I just don't see how one can say that it's an easy decision with their numbers being so similar.

I'm not picking Parise based on his numbers, i'm picking him based on the fact that i think he's a more reliable prospect. For some reason i see Parise having alot of success in the NHL.. I can't quite put my finger on it... i've seen enough of his games to know he's a winner and i definately think he will be a GO-TO guy on the devils one day.

Please keep in mind i've only watched Vanek play a handful of games, but from what i've seen of both it's clear for me to take Parise.

I also think Parise will score more points than Vanek in the NHL. But we'll have to wait and see. :)
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Kris Baker said:
Just curious to know- how is it "easyyyy" to pick between the two? I don't think it's very cut and dry. Parise had 116 points in two years at NoDak. Vanek had 113 in the same span, plus a national title and a Frozen Four MVP. Vanek played extremely well against pro competition at last year's World Championships (something Pavel Brendl NEVER did), while Parise was a dominating force at the World Juniors. This year in the "Eh", a mere two points separate the two (Vanek 17, Parise 15). Easy decision? :dunno:

To me, it's a tough proposition and comes down to what your team needs are. If your team is desperately lacking a pure scoring threat with pro size, you side with Vanek. If you need a natural leader with a high level of skill in all areas, you take Parise. Parise's work ethic seems to equate to him being a solid NHLer, but Vanek's scouting report suggests he just might be able to pull off more serious offensive numbers despite his "floating". It's all potential right now....

I think they both may have an impact at the NHL level, and I actually like Parise more as a worker bee. I just don't see how one can say that it's an easy decision with their numbers being so similar.
The thing is.....you are comparing offensive figures. That is a strong part of Parise's game but defense is also a huge component where offense is all Vanek got right now.
 

Moskau

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JasonMacIsaac said:
The thing is.....you are comparing offensive figures. That is a strong part of Parise's game but defense is also a huge component where offense is all Vanek got right now.
No the thing is.

With you NJ fans in this thread, when Parise has more points than Vanek it's great to keep updating us about how much more he's scoring.

But now that Vanek has more points, let's turn the tables and say that Defense is now the #1 factor.
 

Hobey Baker

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JasonMacIsaac said:
The thing is.....you are comparing offensive figures. That is a strong part of Parise's game but defense is also a huge component where offense is all Vanek got right now.
Which is exactly why I mention that "team needs" are huge in the debate. Many, including myself, can make the argument that Vanek's offensive upside is higher than Parise's, making him a more attractive commodity to teams lacking that true "force".

I'm sorry, but the best (read: not only) way to evaluate two first round picks against one another is by looking at the numbers. That said, it's hard finding defensive statistics for forwards these days.
 

MojoJojo

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I think a lot of the hype surrounding Vanek has to do with his highlight reel moves and goals. Lets see him try those moves in the NHL, where he wont have nearly so much space and time, and the defensemen wont be bamboozeled quite so easy. Same can be said for Parise, but at least he has some speed. As a fan of neither Buffalo or the Devils (which is an understatement), I would rather have Parise.
 

Missionhockey

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Moskau said:
No the thing is.

With you NJ fans in this thread, when Parise has more points than Vanek it's great to keep updating us about how much more he's scoring.

But now that Vanek has more points, let's turn the tables and say that Defense is now the #1 factor.
It also seems as if other people on this board believe Vanek is vastly superior to Parise offensively when that really isn't the case.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Moskau said:
No the thing is.

With you NJ fans in this thread, when Parise has more points than Vanek it's great to keep updating us about how much more he's scoring.

But now that Vanek has more points, let's turn the tables and say that Defense is now the #1 factor.
Maybe other fans may feel offense is Parise's best asset but I value his two way game. I am pleased with his performence so far but he has much more in him. I agree, Vanek is the better offensive forward at the moment. He proved he can play with men at the world cup. I would still prefer Parise though based on his defense.
 

TehDoak

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Vanek has the potential to be a top 10 offensive forward in the entire league. Parise, while offensivley gifted, is just a different player. Yes, Parise is a good offensive player...but as good as Vanek? I don't think so. Parise has the potential to be a good #1 center, but i really can't see him leading the league in scoring. Vanek has the potential to do just that. Would I take Vanek or Parise? Talk to me in 5 years, then I'll tell you. Its all just potential right now.
 

Hobey Baker

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Man, do I ever disagree with that.
At this point, what else do we have other than evaluating their performance against comparable competition? I should have been more specific. That was the main point, though. I think I know where you're going, and can't say that I disagree, but I'll wait and see.
 

espo*

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I pick Parise,there just seems to be something that says "winner" written all over the guy that i like and think will allow him to suceed in a high way.I think he's a damn good player and has intangibles that can't be measured like a good attitude and an acute ability of knowing how to get things done when they need to get done. We'll see how this all plays out.His intelligence impresses me.
 

Hobey Baker

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cyclops said:
I pick Parise,there just seems to be something that says "winner" written all over the guy that i like and think will allow him to suceed in a high way.I think he's a damn good player and has intangibles that can't be measured like a good attitude and an acute ability of knowing how to get things done when they need to get done. We'll see how this all plays out.His intelligence impresses me.
^^^^^
Perhaps the best points yet.
 

I.am.ca

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Parise, i think he's going to be one of the Devil's franchise players in the next few years.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Kris Baker said:
At this point, what else do we have other than evaluating their performance against comparable competition? I should have been more specific. That was the main point, though. I think I know where you're going, and can't say that I disagree, but I'll wait and see.

Well, to me it starts with knowing the player. I mean, I can go on a Swedish site (or any country I know little about) right now and look at full stats from a single team and I still wouldn't know who are the best players, who has the skills, who is a sniper, etc.

I realize you've narrowed it down a little by saying "first rounders". It is an indication that neither of them is chump change. But if I didn't know better, I might think Parise is a prototypical smallish finesse forward. I also wouldn't know how they score their points.

I need to know the player very well. Then I need to know as much as possible about the league because certain players will thrive under certain conditions. Then I need to know about the team. Then the linemates. Even with all that, I still feel there is a lot of guesswork but I could never pull it off on first round status and stats alone. That's why I come here. Get more firsthand info.

Take a look at these Swedish players in Italy, in scoring order:

http://www.eliteprospects.com/stats_europe.php?leagueid=Italy&name=Serie%20A%20(Italy)

I think I know a name or two in there. Not only do I have no idea how skilled those guys are in Italy, it would be even more difficult for me to determine who is a better fit for the NHL.

I see statistics as an indicator of trends that will confirm my suspicions or challenge the notion I have on a player. That's the best way I've been able to put it in words so far.

For instance, a 10 point season in the AHL for Vanek would mean I would seriously question my former evaluation of him. Something like .750 (ballpark) is pretty much what I expect. Something significant over 1ppg might force me to reassess a little. To further inquire.

Here's the best example of a guy who is challenging me a little right now: Clayton Stoner. He's just that huge, hardworking mother of a defenseman in the WHL with pretty typical stats last year, drafted in the 3rd or 4th round by Minny. So far, so good.

He misses some time at the beginning of the season. When he comes back, he starts piling up the points. After about 8-9 games, he's got 8-9 points. So far, so good. That's kind of cute. Is he on a hot streak? Really lucky? I'm not going to lose sleep over it. But now it's been 17 games and he's got 16 points. I mean, he's got a ppg that compares admirably with almost any CHL D.

He's a real headscratcher for me. I know I like him. But this year I haven't seen him. And he's statistically on another level. I have to take into consideration:

The small sample statistically
That he is still a huge beast of a D
The level he's playing at, his age
I need to find out how is team is doing
I need to find out if he plays with Belle, if Belle is helping him, and why Belle actually has a lower ppg when he is an older guy taken much higher a year before.
I need to find out why he didn't make the Russia challenge.

Just looking at it like that, it looks like maybe Stoner was drafted too late. But I am not definitively sure yet. I'm going to use these stats as a basis to inquire further and find out what the hell is going on and why this guy, who has all the attributes I want in a shutdown D and had me absolutely sold on him in the past is piling up points like a quarterback this year.

I'm going to tell you straight: if all I knew about Stoner was that he was drafted in the 4th round and has 16 points in 17 games, I would be *convinced* this guy is a 5 foot 10 hotshot who cheats his position and/or gets overpowered easily. I might even think he is plagued with injury because of his small size.

Also, I think it is still very early to look at stats. Same can be said of Parise and Vanek. Both could go on hot and cold streaks.

I know this is exagerated but keep in mind at one point, rookie Stanislav Chistov was on pace for over 160 goals and 160 assists in his rookie season ;)
 

Missionhockey

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Kris Baker said:
Devil's Advocate (no pun intended):
Could you say the same for Vanek if he were Devs property?
To be honest, I doubt that Vanek would fit the Devils system as well as Parise. Not to knock on Vanek but I believe he'd have a better start to his career where he is right now anyway.
 

Hobey Baker

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MissionHockey said:
To be honest, I doubt that Vanek would fit the Devils system as well as Parise. Not to knock on Vanek but I believe he'd have a better start to his career where he is right now anyway.
Which is precisely why individual team needs play a huge role in this assessment.

Vlad-I'll try to take a crack at your post when I get home from work later. Good stuff.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Zach Parise - 20 games, 5 goals, 14 assists, 19 points
Thomas Vanek - 20 games, 9 goals, 5 assists, 14 points

nener nener neeener ;) What one game can do for PPG stats. I should keep my mouth closes Vanek will probably get 6 points tonight.
 

DownFromNJ

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Vanek has the potential to be a top 10 offensive forward in the entire league. Parise, while offensivley gifted, is just a different player. Yes, Parise is a good offensive player...but as good as Vanek? I don't think so. Parise has the potential to be a good #1 center, but i really can't see him leading the league in scoring. Vanek has the potential to do just that. Would I take Vanek or Parise? Talk to me in 5 years, then I'll tell you. Its all just potential right now.

Heres the thing - Vanek isn't a step above Parise in terms of offense. They've always put up comparable numbers in the same league and will continue the do so. The difference is that Vanek brings size and offense to the table, and Parise brings defense, offense, leadership, and work ethic to the table. Parise is Derek Jeter and Vanek is Nomar Garciaparra.


Could you say the same for Vanek if he were Devs property?

Absolutely. Before the 2003 draft I marked Parise as my favorite player and Vanek as my overrated pick.
 
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