News Article: Panarin’s agent sits down w/ The Athletic

goldenbladz1

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Feb 11, 2015
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That's the question, right? It's not like the Hawks didn't trade Panarin for Saad because we felt it would help Toews. Kane, Schmlatz, and Panarin also played with Toews.

After 3 years, I don't know who's hurting who? Is it Toews or is it his linemates? Remember I was defending Toews as recently as 8 months ago. Now I'm not so sure.

I'll say it again, it's time for Toews to help himself ... and not his linemates to "get him going." At some point, enough is enough. Why is it always his linemates who are the issue?

Toews played well with Schmaltz. A 1C should be playing with other elite wingers. Crosby has had to endure inferior players throughout his career but he is on a different level than most 1C's. Bergeron never put up great numbers until he started playing with Marchand and Pastrnak
 

RememberTheRoar

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Toews played well with Schmaltz. A 1C should be playing with other elite wingers. Crosby has had to endure inferior players throughout his career but he is on a different level than most 1C's. Bergeron never put up great numbers until he started playing with Marchand and Pastrnak

I agree with this. Crosby is an anomaly and shouldn’t be used as a gauge for how Toews is handled.

Backstrom is the only 1C I can think of who doesn’t play with his team’s best winger, but still spent a lot of time with Ovi over the last few years.

Toews was successful scoring in a shutdown role in large part because of Hossa.

Toews was previously successful in a scoring role in large part because of Kane.

That’s not a knock on Toews to say that, and shouldn’t be taken that way.

That being said, now that Hossa is gone, it only makes sense to pair Toews with Kane and force Toews to become a defensively responsible scoring line center again. Without Hossa, Toews is only capable of putting up 2C numbers while carrying a shutdown line.
 

piteus

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Dec 20, 2015
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I agree with this. Crosby is an anomaly and shouldn’t be used as a gauge for how Toews is handled.

Backstrom is the only 1C I can think of who doesn’t play with his team’s best winger, but still spent a lot of time with Ovi over the last few years.

Toews was successful scoring in a shutdown role in large part because of Hossa.

Toews was previously successful in a scoring role in large part because of Kane.

That’s not a knock on Toews to say that, and shouldn’t be taken that way.

That being said, now that Hossa is gone, it only makes sense to pair Toews with Kane and force Toews to become a defensively responsible scoring line center again. Without Hossa, Toews is only capable of putting up 2C numbers while carrying a shutdown line.
Q's tried to pair Toews with Kane. Early in their careers, it worked. Recently, nothing has "got Toews going," including Kane.

At this point, Toews has to get himself going. I'm tired to the Hawks screwing with the chemistry of the other lines (especially Kane's) in order to "get Toews going." In that sense, Toews is a bigger detriment than he should be. It's not Kane's job to get Toews going. The Toews dilemma is hurting the entire team.
 

RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
23,119
21,154
That's me in the corner
Q's tried to pair Toews with Kane. Early in their careers, it worked. Recently, nothing has "got Toews going," including Kane.

At this point, Toews has to get himself going. I'm tired to the Hawks screwing with the chemistry of the other lines (especially Kane's) in order to "get Toews going." In that sense, Toews is a bigger detriment than he should be. It's not Kane's job to get Toews going. The Toews dilemma is hurting the entire team.

That’s true to a point. Many of the issues can be corrected by Toews, but it’s also hard to deny that almost every first line center in the league has an elite winger.

Saad is a good winger, but Toews hasn’t had an elite winger since 14-15.

I know the Toews Kane thing wasn’t great in-season, but that’s why it’s imporant to work them together in the offseason. Toews has mentally shifted his game to first with someone like Hossa, but he should be able to make a mental change to fit with Kane again.

Seriously, it’s one of the few options left for this team.

Otherwise, be content with Toews playing a shutdown center role and putting up 2C like numbers. And if that’s what we’re going to do, I’d prefer he have worse wings so we can make a strong scoring third line.
 

BobbyJet

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I agree with this. Crosby is an anomaly and shouldn’t be used as a gauge for how Toews is handled.

Backstrom is the only 1C I can think of who doesn’t play with his team’s best winger, but still spent a lot of time with Ovi over the last few years.

Toews was successful scoring in a shutdown role in large part because of Hossa.

Toews was previously successful in a scoring role in large part because of Kane.

That’s not a knock on Toews to say that, and shouldn’t be taken that way.

That being said, now that Hossa is gone, it only makes sense to pair Toews with Kane and force Toews to become a defensively responsible scoring line center again. Without Hossa, Toews is only capable of putting up 2C numbers while carrying a shutdown line.

Toews is not a bad hockey player. He is just overpaid. Always has been since he inked that extension. If his contract ended today, Stan would overpay him again.
 
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RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
23,119
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That's me in the corner
Toews is not a bad hockey player. He is just overpaid. Always has been since he inked that extension. If his contract ended today, Stan would overpay him again.

This is correct. This is the first time in his career that he’s being forced to play with non-elite wingers, and it’s not working, plain and simple.

As much as you’d like a $10.5 million guy to put up first line numbers regardless of linemates, it’s simply not going to happen with Toews. It’s fact, and we need to either make a change, or accept what he is.
 

bwana63

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Jul 11, 2014
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Toews is not a bad hockey player. He is just overpaid. Always has been since he inked that extension. If his contract ended today, Stan would overpay him again.

This. Toews is a good hockey player and oftentimes very good.

Toews is no longer the dominator he was. The decline and subsequent absence of Hoss clearly is a factor. Am hard pressed to fault Bowman on the contract, given the cap growth at the time. Yes, of course, it would've been better if Toews had accepted $9.5M.

That said, the problem isn't the contract, it's that Toews is no longer playing up to the level of his contract.
 

Hawkaholic

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Q's tried to pair Toews with Kane. Early in their careers, it worked. Recently, nothing has "got Toews going," including Kane.

At this point, Toews has to get himself going. I'm tired to the Hawks screwing with the chemistry of the other lines (especially Kane's) in order to "get Toews going." In that sense, Toews is a bigger detriment than he should be. It's not Kane's job to get Toews going. The Toews dilemma is hurting the entire team.
Hard to rebuild your chemistry in 1 or 2 game stints. And was it that Toews didn't get going, or that Kane had a tougher time dealing with a stronger opposition against him? Q loves having a line that can go against the opps best, and having a line that can eat up lesser lines. Maybe he should put Kane up against the other teams best, and put Toews against the weaker competition to get Toews going offensively, how do you think that will turn out?
 

piteus

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Dec 20, 2015
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This. Toews is a good hockey player and oftentimes very good.

Toews is no longer the dominator he was. The decline and subsequent absence of Hoss clearly is a factor. Am hard pressed to fault Bowman on the contract, given the cap growth at the time. Yes, of course, it would've been better if Toews had accepted $9.5M.

That said, the problem isn't the contract, it's that Toews is no longer playing up to the level of his contract.
The contract is the problem. If Toews was making $6mn/year, we wouldn't be complaining as much. 3.5 years later, Kucherov scores over 100 points at 25 years of age AND still makes $1mn less than Toews.

If Seabrook made $3.5mn/year, no one would be complaining.

Going back to Panarin, I don't know if he's worth $9mn to $11mn per year ... but it's apparent, Panarin is worth more than Toews. This is what bad contracts do. It forces good players to leave. It's a double whammy.
 

piteus

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Dec 20, 2015
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Hard to rebuild your chemistry in 1 or 2 game stints. And was it that Toews didn't get going, or that Kane had a tougher time dealing with a stronger opposition against him? Q loves having a line that can go against the opps best, and having a line that can eat up lesser lines. Maybe he should put Kane up against the other teams best, and put Toews against the weaker competition to get Toews going offensively, how do you think that will turn out?
Can Kane, Schmaltz, and Saad play on the same line? I'd rather see them together than Toews being pressured to score by being paired up with Kane. The more Toews is prssured to score, the more he misses the net.
 

RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
23,119
21,154
That's me in the corner
Hard to rebuild your chemistry in 1 or 2 game stints. And was it that Toews didn't get going, or that Kane had a tougher time dealing with a stronger opposition against him? Q loves having a line that can go against the opps best, and having a line that can eat up lesser lines. Maybe he should put Kane up against the other teams best, and put Toews against the weaker competition to get Toews going offensively, how do you think that will turn out?

Teams have been trying to matchup their best defense against Kane for years, they’d be dumb not to. I don’t think that’s the issue.

Metrics do show that Toews faced a slightly tougher quality of competition last year, but a lot of that is Q putting Toews out there against other teams’ best.

Kane can still perform against tough competition.
 

RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
23,119
21,154
That's me in the corner
Can Kane, Schmaltz, and Saad play on the same line? I'd rather see them together than Toews being pressured to score by being paired up with Kane. The more Toews is prssured to score, the more he misses the net.

If that’s the case, then make Toews a second line center who is fully focused on a shutdown role with Hino and whoever else.

Take scoring pressure completely off him, and be happy if it puts up 40ish points while having a positive goal differential. At this point, it seems like it’s a more natural fit for him, but coaching and offseason work can break him out of settling in that role.

DeBrincat should then lead a bumslaying scoring third line, and be double shifted on the power play.
 
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Hawkaholic

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Can Kane, Schmaltz, and Saad play on the same line? I'd rather see them together than Toews being pressured to score by being paired up with Kane. The more Toews is prssured to score, the more he misses the net.
I'm sure they could play on the same line, but they will probably be defending in their own zone the majority of the game.
 

ChiHawks10

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The contract is the problem. If Toews was making $6mn/year, we wouldn't be complaining as much. 3.5 years later, Kucherov scores over 100 points at 25 years of age AND still makes $1mn less than Toews.

If Seabrook made $3.5mn/year, no one would be complaining.

Going back to Panarin, I don't know if he's worth $9mn to $11mn per year ... but it's apparent, Panarin is worth more than Toews. This is what bad contracts do. It forces good players to leave. It's a double whammy.

It is constantly said on here, but Toews and Kane, both, got paid partially for past success. And you do those deals with those two every single time. No matter what.
 
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BobbyJet

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If that’s the case, then make Toews a second line center who is fully focused on a shutdown role with Hino and whoever else.

Take scoring pressure completely off him, and be happy if it puts up 40ish points while having a positive goal differential. At this point, it seems like it’s a more natural fit for him, but coaching and offseason work can break him out of settling in that role.

DeBrincat should then lead a bumslaying scoring third line, and be double shifted on the power play.

It was understandable to me why Toews and Kane were separated in the past but things have changed. I think it would be of benefit to put the two together at this time. Afterall it's no longer the case that Hawks would be playing their best offensive players together on the same line but there is no doubt in my mind that Toews would be better off. The question is, who would be the third guy on the line? If I know Q, it could very well be Kunitz.
Now if a young guy like Fortin or Highmore can fill in the gap and play solidly in a 4th line role, that just may be an option, at least part-time.
 

RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
23,119
21,154
That's me in the corner
It was understandable to me why Toews and Kane were separated in the past but things have changed. I think it would be of benefit to put the two together at this time. Afterall it's no longer the case that Hawks would be playing their best offensive players together on the same line but there is no doubt in my mind that Toews would be better off. The question is, who would be the third guy on the line? If I know Q, it could very well be Kunitz.
Now if a young guy like Fortin or Highmore can fill in the gap and play solidly in a 4th line role, that just may be an option, at least part-time.

I think you need the third line to just figure it out and build up throughout the season.

I’d start with Hino-Anisimov-Sikura. Make a move at the deadline if you’re in playoff position, and those guys aren’t cutting it.
 

Hawkaholic

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If that’s the case, then make Toews a second line center who is fully focused on a shutdown role with Hino and whoever else.

Take scoring pressure completely off him, and be happy if it puts up 40ish points while having a positive goal differential. At this point, it seems like it’s a more natural fit for him, but coaching and offseason work can break him out of settling in that role.

DeBrincat should then lead a bumslaying scoring third line, and be double shifted on the power play.
Toews is our best C we have, he needs to play the most.
Hino in a shutdown role? No thank you.
Toews is putting up 50+pts while playing in a shutdown role, with a positive goal differential, so I'm not sure what you want to change other than giving him less mins, which makes zero sense.
 

RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
23,119
21,154
That's me in the corner
Toews is our best C we have, he needs to play the most.
Hino in a shutdown role? No thank you.
Toews is putting up 50+pts while playing in a shutdown role, with a positive goal differential, so I'm not sure what you want to change other than giving him less mins, which makes zero sense.

I want Toews to play with Kane...

I was responding to the comment that Saad gets pulled from Toews and goes with Schmaltz and Kane.

That’d leave DeBrincat as your last above average offensive player, and I don’t think DeBrincat makes much sense in a shutdown role, the guy should be get 70% ZSR.
 

BrianE

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We had Panarin here, with Toews, and the team lost in the 1st round both seasons. What makes People think we would be better without Toews? His 10mil would just go to over paid, like Toews, middle of the road players, except worse.

That is a good point........but let's forget about Panarin for a moment. Imagine picking up 2 quality young centerman for say at or around 5 mil each? 2 for the price of 1! Don't know who they would be but that would be huge for this club.
 

Hawkaholic

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That is a good point........but let's forget about Panarin for a moment. Imagine picking up 2 quality young centerman for say at or around 5 mil each? 2 for the price of 1! Don't know who they would be but that would be huge for this club.
Bozak was literally the only C to switch teams that got a contract in the 5mil range. So would you take 2 Bozak type players and Panarin over Toews and Panarin?

I know I wouldn't.
 

ChiHawks10

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Toews has produced like a high-end 2C over the last three years.

I still believe he produces more than Schmaltz will when paired with Kane, that’s primarily based on Toews’ willingness to shoot being much higher than Schmaltz’.

I'd argue that up until this most recent season, he was producing as a low-end 1C, not a high-end 2C. Although there's probably not a whole lot of difference between the two.
 
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