Rumor: Pacioretty Potential Trade Thread II (Mod warning post #139)

[groovejuice]

Let's not kid ourselves either he's still a hell of a defenseman too

Teams that have the space and need a shutdown guy who will also help their special teams will line up. Starting next season Weber has a $6M salary for the next 4 years.

Top 4 salary with top 2 skill and cap hit. Good deal.

 

[MSSLYNX]

Will try as a Philly fan to make a pitch for Pacioretty and Byron. I like the idea of playing Max on the 2nd line with Voracek and Patrick. 1st line set with Giroux, Couturier and Konecny. Byron would improve pk and secondary scoring.

So i would offer 6 pieces, some you might want to check before flaming as they are not all known names.

A first rounder, the worst of Phila and StL. Would be 25th today
A pmd in Philippe Myers 6.5 210 signed for 2 more yrs at 680K
A center in German Rubstov 19, 6´1, ppg in qhl
A rw in Maxim Sushko 18, ppg in ohl
A lw in Carsen Twarynski 20 6´2 30 goals in 43 games whl
Lw Raffl 2.3 mil 1 more year.

Philly still has many prospects at each position. Risk involved as both Mtl players have 1 year left.

Open to tweaks if need be.

 

[Scriptor]

I agree. I can't see MB liking Nylander as a player. Also, he mainly plays on Matthews wing. Matthews, Kadri & Bozak play center for them.

The last thing I want is another young player who "needs to grow" into the center position. Yeah, I'm done with that ****. First Chucky then Drouin then Nylander? Get a ****ing center Bergevin.

If we trade Weber, I want Draisatl, a D & a 1st. Mr. Team Canada would be a huge asset to Edmonton too. They need a RHS D & a PP guy. Weber would immediately & significantly upgrade their PP & SH teams. Their specialty teams suck.

I like a deal with Edmonton over Toronto. I don't think Nylander is a #1 center.

In any case, I can't see MB trading Weber.

Draisaitl, a D (I assume Nurse or something?) and a 1st rounder for Weber? I seriously don't believe that it comes close to happening. I can understand why you want it to happen, but just don't see it. EDM amputates itself of too much talent for Weber, especially with another chance at a lottery pick this year. Could maybe see RNH, Nurse and a lottery protected 1st. Still a lot, but makes more sense for EDM.

 

[groovejuice]

Imagine the offence from Subban, Radulov and Sergachev. Add it all up.

It's not just points those guys contribute. They all open up the ice and move the puck like nobody's business.

 

[MarkovsKnee]

Draisaitl, a D (I assume Nurse or something?) and a 1st rounder for Weber? I seriously don't believe that it comes close to happening. I can understand why you want it to happen, but just don't see it. EDM amputates itself of too much talent for Weber, especially with another chance at a lottery pick this year. Could maybe see RNH, Nurse and a lottery protected 1st. Still a lot, but makes more sense for EDM.

I wasn't thinking of Nurse. One of their lesser D like Larsson or Benning. They would have to shed some salary & we'd need a RHS D, so probably Larsson. He's in the $4m area.

RNH, Larsson & a 1st is what I'd do for Pacioretty but not Weber.

 

[Scriptor]

Will try as a Philly fan to make a pitch for Pacioretty and Byron. I like the idea of playing Max on the 2nd line with Voracek and Patrick. 1st line set with Giroux, Couturier and Konecny. Byron would improve pk and secondary scoring.

So i would offer 6 pieces, some you might want to check before flaming as they are not all known names.

A first rounder, the worst of Phila and StL. Would be 25th today
A pmd in Philippe Myers 6.5 210 signed for 2 more yrs at 680K
A center in German Rubstov 19, 6´1, ppg in qhl
A rw in Maxim Sushko 18, ppg in ohl
A lw in Carsen Twarynski 20 6´2 30 goals in 43 games whl
Lw Raffl 2.3 mil 1 more year.

Philly still has many prospects at each position. Risk involved as both Mtl players have 1 year left.

Open to tweaks if need be.

Will try as a Philly fan to make a pitch for Pacioretty and Byron. I like the idea of playing Max on the 2nd line with Voracek and Patrick. 1st line set with Giroux, Couturier and Konecny. Byron would improve pk and secondary scoring.

So i would offer 6 pieces, some you might want to check before flaming as they are not all known names.

A first rounder, the worst of Phila and StL. Would be 25th today
A pmd in Philippe Myers 6.5 210 signed for 2 more yrs at 680K
A center in German Rubstov 19, 6´1, ppg in qhl
A rw in Maxim Sushko 18, ppg in ohl
A lw in Carsen Twarynski 20 6´2 30 goals in 43 games whl
Lw Raffl 2.3 mil 1 more year.

Philly still has many prospects at each position. Risk involved as both Mtl players have 1 year left.

Open to tweaks if need be.

I stopped reading after the first three pieces and I'm sending both Pacioretty and Byron your way as we speak. I'll take the others more than willingly as more assets means a higher chance of one panning out. Would they like us to throw in Lindgren as well?

 

[Scriptor]

I wasn't thinking of Nurse. One of their lesser D like Larsson or Benning. They would have to shed some salary & we'd need a RHS D, so probably Larsson. He's in the $4m area.

RNH, Larsson & a 1st is what I'd do for Pacioretty but not Weber.

Will be hard to pry Draisaitl from EDM, you'd have to add a young piece or two for the Draisaitl, D and 1st package back, maybe Lehkonen and Carr could do it? Help on the wing for EDM would be needed as Strome would be moved to C behind RNH and McDavid.

Weber, Lehkonen and Carr for Draisaitl, a lesser D and a first. Only makes sense given Draisaitl's age and skill level at a pivotal position (pardon the play on words)

 

[Scriptor]

I stopped reading after the first three pieces and I'm sending both Pacioretty and Byron your way as we speak. I'll take the others more than willingly as more assets means a higher chance of one panning out. Would they like us to throw in Lindgren as well?

Buddy of mine said they were all duds, in the end, that Rubstov might still have upside and that the others were on a fast road to nowhere. So much for the reports dated December 2017...Wish I was a professional scout and had the time and resources to see them all in person on a regular basis

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

Will try as a Philly fan to make a pitch for Pacioretty and Byron. I like the idea of playing Max on the 2nd line with Voracek and Patrick. 1st line set with Giroux, Couturier and Konecny. Byron would improve pk and secondary scoring.

So i would offer 6 pieces, some you might want to check before flaming as they are not all known names.

A first rounder, the worst of Phila and StL. Would be 25th today
A pmd in Philippe Myers 6.5 210 signed for 2 more yrs at 680K
A center in German Rubstov 19, 6´1, ppg in qhl
A rw in Maxim Sushko 18, ppg in ohl
A lw in Carsen Twarynski 20 6´2 30 goals in 43 games whl
Lw Raffl 2.3 mil 1 more year.

Philly still has many prospects at each position. Risk involved as both Mtl players have 1 year left.

Open to tweaks if need be.

Sushko and Twarynski seem like decent add ons but not enough if you're asking for Pacioretty and Byron. Winger depth is the least of our concerns.

Myers and Rubstov are both slightly disappointing and aren't the high end prospects we would be expecting (potential #1C or #1LD).

I would be satisfied with Rubstov + Myers + Morin + higher 1st + Raffl for Pacioretty + Byron.

 

[Kraken Jokes]

Really? I find that interesting, different perspectives perhaps! His skating was highly touted during the WJC, the analysts spent the whole tourney going on about how he is so mature out there and his skating reminded them of P.K.

“This is big for the Canadiens, as they don’t have another player with Mete’s ability to both skate and pass the puck at a high level. Petry is a wonderful puck rusher, but can struggle with passing. Weber can make some great stretch passes, but lacks the breakout speed and consistent outlet pass to reliably clear the defensive zone and start the rush. Mete is the only defenceman here who can do both."

Whose quote is that? Because it's pretty good. I'm not used to such accurate reads on players from the media.

 

[yianik]

Sushko and Twarynski seem like decent add ons but not enough if you're asking for Pacioretty and Byron. Winger depth is the least of our concerns.

Myers and Rubstov are both slightly disappointing and aren't the high end prospects we would be expecting (potential #1C or #1LD).

I would be satisfied with Rubstov + Myers + Morin + higher 1st + Raffl for Pacioretty + Byron.

While a lot of pieces gives you a better chance that a couple pan out, it's likely they will just be top 9 or fringe top 6 and that is not what we need.

We have to go for fewer pieces but with a very high ceiling, as potential to be a 1C. If we whiff we are screwed but hedging bets guarantees mediocrity.

 

[Runner77]

Whose quote is that? Because it's pretty good. I'm not used to such accurate reads on players from the media.

Sportsnet piece from last October:

 

[Habs Halifax]

Probably takes more than McDavid to lure Tavares. 13M should do it, IMO.

Agreed. But I think several teams offer him more than McDavid.

 

[OldCraig71]

Pacioretty to Edmonton for RNH and Edmontons first pick this year and it will be a top 5 pick, add to it if we have to. With this trade we potentially have 2 top 5 picks and the team is only set back for 1-2 seasons max(no pun).

 

[Habs Halifax]

Well you’re entitled to your opinion but it doesn’t make it right.

Patches is a better goal scorer, an all purpose player (PK,PP, even strength) who ou can rely on, he’s on a cheaper contract and he’s proven he’s elite.

He beats Hoffman in just about every conceivable category and he’s making almost $1Mm less than Hoffman.

Habs will ask and they will receive more for Patches than what Hoffman will get. Seriously, this isn’t even a question, the value per dollar isn’t close. Clear edge Patches.

You fail to talk about the extra year in term which I clearly stated was the reason why I would give the edge to Hoffman. So your interpretation of what I was saying and you reply to it doesn't align

 

[Habs Halifax]

Some alternative theories:
1. He spent his entire career with TB and wanted to stay.
2. The team had been fair with him from the beginning, he went from ELC to a 5 year contract with no fuss. He had already made about $22M in career earnings by the time he got to his age 26 contract.
3. The Lightning didn't spend seemingly every waking hour trying to undercut him and did not employ a coach who began their working relationship by announcing that Hedman had to become a better person.
4. Yzerman could have sat down with him and explained the teams philosophy and noted that with so many good players to sign, Hedman might need to leave a little on the table in order to keep more of the core players together. And Hedman could look at the roster and decide that was worth it for him.

But yeah, Taxes. Poor Bergy, deck is always stacked against him.

Possible reasons yes. I guess you believe in loyalty. Why didn't Price do this for us? Ignoring the taxes as being a big factor is not being reasonable IMO.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Err...how many teams won the cup without a rebuild in the cap era? That should give you a fairly good idea which plan has more risk.

Bruins and Kings. Who do you think the next Pens and Blackhawks are? They have won 6 of the last 9 cups . I know what you are saying but there has been how many teams trying to rebuild in the last decade? Doing a full rebuild is risky. Just as risky with rebuilding on the fly. However, in 5+ years time, we might end up with a team that is no better than what we have today. Coyotes, Sabres, Canucks, Panthers, Oilers, Canes, ect. Turning a blind eye to this is very weird IMO.

Draft Lottery combined with game changer talent in the draft. Expecting a McDavid or Mathews in every draft and winning the draft lottery when you want to is not reasonable.

Habs biggest problem is we only have Gallagher on our line-up from 4 years of drafting (2008-2011). We were not able to add to Price, Subban, Patch. We drafted Galchenyuk and he did not become the franchise #1C we needed him to be. Combine that with 1st round busts in Beaulieu, Tinordi, and Leblanc and we end up with what we have today.

 

[bobholly39]

Possible reasons yes. I guess you believe in loyalty. Why didn't Price do this for us? Ignoring the taxes as being a big factor is not being reasonable IMO.

Let's not bring up the notion of loyalty when discussion Hab players please.

You'd have to be an absolute moron to bother showing "loyalty" to the organization after the way they traded Subban. Was any player in franchise HISTORY more loyal to the team? Yeah I went there...

 

[CauZuki]

Whose quote is that? Because it's pretty good. I'm not used to such accurate reads on players from the media.

Believe it or not it's from Andrew Berkshire at Sportnet, some aren't a fan but I think often times he's spot on.

The link I put above is for the article but it keeps embedding the video only. Searching the first few lines of text on Google should bring up the article. (from the beginning of the season)

 

[Habs Halifax]

How do you rebuild on the fly? How long have we tried that strategy? What have we been doing for the last 20 years?

I’m not saying tear it down and go with fresh young prospects like Arizona. I’m saying build up the prospect pool while keeping Price. You can cite Arizona, I can cite New Jersey which rebuilt while keeping Schneider.

The funny thing is you say you don’t want to rebuild but you’ve given no plan other than try for Tavares. Care to share a logical plan? You may find that, when you start thinking about it, it’s not possible because of the age that our veterans get to during the process. We all didn’t want to blow up a team we love for the heck of it. It’s because we’ve done that exercise and see there isn’t another way.

And please don’t tell me there is another way without presenting your plan for how you’ll do it. I want to see how you’ll rebuild on the fly and how you’ll fill the glaring holes in this roster including 2C, 1LD and three puck moving defensemen in the top four. Also, what you’ll do if Tavares doesn’t sign here.

What you’ve given so far is “my mind is on cloud 9” stuff like hey, look what our lineup can become. But that lineup still has holes. We are 29th in goals for in a now offense driven league. Tavares wouldn’t get us into the top 5-10 by himself. And I have him in my keeper pool.

None of this “I just make it happen.” Bergevin hasn’t been able to so it’s obviously not as simple as that.

EDIT: The ironic thing is that using your approach you will inevitably have to do a full rebuild rather than just a retool. Because:

1. You’ll get to the middle of the pack
2. You already don’t have any blue chip prospects coming through that will make a substantial difference
3. The draft picks you’ll get will be in the middle of the pack so won’t improve you
4. You still won’t be able to plug the holes in your lineup because if you trade someone, another hole opens
5. Your players will keep getting older, and
6. When they get old enough you have no choice but to trade them for less

Example? See Tomas Plekanec. We were saying to trade him for a 1st five years ago. Now? We’ve gone nowhere and we’ll be lucky to get a low 2nd for him now.

By retooling now you get to save some of your assets while they’re still at the top of their game.

Feel free to disagree but provide a tangible plan to go any other way.

1. We have not rebuild on the fly. We have won 3 division titles in 5 years and drafted in the 25+ position a lot. We also only have Gallagher to show for 4 years of drafting from 2008-2011 which is terrible drafting due to lack of top 100 picks in that span. We have also missed three 2nd round picks from the 2014-2016 draft years. This is not rebuilding on the fly.

2. At this point, we have several key pieces. Two players are in their early 30's and the rest of the core is age 25 or less. We had a good draft in 2017 and we have a potential of 7 or more top 100 picks in the next draft. This is rebuilding on the fly. If Pleky or Patch is traded, I would like to acquire more picks in the 2019 draft as well.

3. You mention NJ Devils. They won a draft lottery last year and got Hischier. Besides him, who have they drafted in the last 5 drafts that indicates to you that they rebuild on the fly while keeping Schneider? Do you honestly think they are the next Pens or Blackhawks?

4. You mention Tavares. My plan is to add Tavares and allow our age 25 and under core to grow. This includes players on our roster (Drouin, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Lehkonen, Danault, Mete, Hudon) and it includes players not on our current roster at the moment (Juulsen, Scherbak, Poehling, Brook, Bitten, Evans, Lindgren, Ikonen, Vejdemo). Adding a potential of 7 top 100 picks in the next draft is a big deal. You can throw our prospects under the bus we are turning the corner in this department. That is very clear to me and it's not about hope, it's about probability due to quantity of top 100 picks.

There are many ways we can go to be honest. What I have been saying is there is a risk/reward factor in each direction we take. My problem I have is I think people are a bit too disappointed with the playoff success of our team and exaggerating our team to be worse than it is because they want our GM fired. If we add Tavares, that is a game changer. It guarantees no cup but it address one of our biggest holes and he would be age 28-34 in the next 7 years. He fits with Price and Weber. Add another potential top 10 pick in the next draft and I think the age 25 and under core will be reinforced with more pieces and they will grow and fill holes on our roster.

What do you think the Leafs think if we get Tavares? I think they are a bit worried about it because they know how much better our team gets.

 

[angry pirate]

Henrik Borgstrom
Nick Bjugstad
2019 1st Round Pick



Max Pacioretty (Permission given to speak to agent prior to trade and resigned immediately after trade)
Jacob De La Rose/Charles Hudon/Daniel Carr
Conditional 2nd Round Pick that returns to the Canadiens if Flordia makes the playoffs.

get a really good center prospect that has developed nicely at the NCAA level. Not a lot left to prove at that level it seems. Potential to turn pro as soon as next season. Nick Bjugstad seems to be a much more productive player as a winger, but I think the Habs would try him at 3C again. We have an appalling lack of Right Shot forwards so winger or center, there is a team need there. He's exactly the player we hoped McCarron would become and even more of a need if Shaw is traded.

improves their offence tremendously and gets Trocheck a winger that's on his level offensively. Patches gives the Panthers another shooter for their dismal PP, and paired with Barkov would likely provide a lethal PK duo that could elevate Florida into the top 10. Patches - Trocheck would give Tippett a better chance of establishing a top 6 role I think. De La Rose/Hudon/Carr gives the Panthers young cheap 4th line, maybe 3rd line depth. Hudon and Carr can be fringe short term 2nd line options if you are desperate.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I like that you are making up stuff on the fly that I didn't say or imply and proceed to argue it. Classic.

None of them are number two centers.

Still a long ways before we can pencil him there. Sure he's an asset but again arguing with yourself here, never said he wasn't.

Are you being serious right now or trolling? Is this the part where you tell me unless you've seen his birth certificate, we can't be sure Weber is 32? Are you denying he will be turning 35 "in a few years"?

1. Not making stuff up on the fly. Get over it and avoid these types of comments as they lead to nowhere other than a post war. If you don't get over it, stop replying to my posts and/or I will stop replying to yours. I would like to discus each others side but not with the style and approach you are taking in your post above. This is not to take a shot at you, it's only an attempt to squash this grudge match going on.

2. Sure. Drouin or Galchenyuk are not matured centers today. Doesn't mean they can't improve and mature into that role. Also doesn't mean we have zero options with our #2 and #3 center spots if we are able to acquire Tavares.

3. Weber is age 32 today and he will be 33, 34, 35, 36 before he considers retirement. His salary drops to $3M when he turns 37 and that depends on what our team looks like and what kind of role he will play at that point IMO. We got 3 or 4 more good years of Weber but that's what I think. Like I said in the previous post, Malkin is age 31 today and do you think the Pens are treating him the say way as you are with Weber? Same goes for Burns who is the same age as Weber. I'm only concerned with Weber at age 35 or 36. That's when the real decline watch starts.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I wasn't thinking of Nurse. One of their lesser D like Larsson or Benning. They would have to shed some salary & we'd need a RHS D, so probably Larsson. He's in the $4m area.

RNH, Larsson & a 1st is what I'd do for Pacioretty but not Weber.

2 years of Patch will not return that type of package. I'm also not trading Weber unless the return is something we can't refuse.

 

[pepperMonkey]

Bruins and Kings. .

Seriously, say what?
The NHL Salary Cap came into affect in 2005.
The Kings went through a rebuild from 2005-8.
The Bruins also started their rebuild at the same time.
Again, how many teams won the cup without a rebuild in the cap era?

 

[angry pirate]

Possible reasons yes. I guess you believe in loyalty. Why didn't Price do this for us? Ignoring the taxes as being a big factor is not being reasonable IMO.

Price signed almost the exact same contract Lundqvist did, in fact, it's likely to be a lower cap %. IMO, that is giving us a bit of a deal.