Rumor: Pacioretty Potential Trade Thread II (Mod warning post #139)

[Fazkovsky]

Weber value must close to zero with that contract

I would give a lot for Nylander

 

[G0bias]

1. I didn't say Galchenyuk would be inserted at center. I said it's overly negative to assume Drouin and Galchenyuk will not mature and improve.

I like that you are making up stuff on the fly that I didn't say or imply and proceed to argue it. Classic.

2. Who is the better center today? Pleky or Drouin?

None of them are number two centers.

3. Poehling is a projected middle 2 center. He is already showing his potential by excelling in a league where players are older than him. Pretty sure he is a solid asset for us moving forward.

Still a long ways before we can pencil him there. Sure he's an asset but again arguing with yourself here, never said he wasn't.

4. Just because parts of your core is near age 30 or some slightly over it, it don't mean they are age 35 and done next season. You think the Pens are giving up because Malkin is age 31, Crosby is age 30, and Kessel is age 30, and Kessel is age 30? Come on man

Are you being serious right now or trolling? Is this the part where you tell me unless you've seen his birth certificate, we can't be sure Weber is 32? Are you denying he will be turning 35 "in a few years"?

 

[groovejuice]

Weber value must close to zero with that contract

I would give a lot for Nylander

Weber's cap hit is higher than his salary going forward. Teams that want that kind of player will make offers.

 

[Omar]

Coyotes have had this plan for how long now? Like I said, you have tunnel vision and are looking at the limited success stories and can't see how many teams are still struggling to rebuild after several years of solid draft picks.

Sorry, I think there are risks with any plan. I choose to rebuild on the fly and if Tavares wants to sign with the Habs, I certainly don't shut the door. I would have no problem with $12M but I would be a bit concerned with $15M. Regardless, I find a way to make it happen.

How do you rebuild on the fly? How long have we tried that strategy? What have we been doing for the last 20 years?

I’m not saying tear it down and go with fresh young prospects like Arizona. I’m saying build up the prospect pool while keeping Price. You can cite Arizona, I can cite New Jersey which rebuilt while keeping Schneider.

The funny thing is you say you don’t want to rebuild but you’ve given no plan other than try for Tavares. Care to share a logical plan? You may find that, when you start thinking about it, it’s not possible because of the age that our veterans get to during the process. We all didn’t want to blow up a team we love for the heck of it. It’s because we’ve done that exercise and see there isn’t another way.

And please don’t tell me there is another way without presenting your plan for how you’ll do it. I want to see how you’ll rebuild on the fly and how you’ll fill the glaring holes in this roster including 2C, 1LD and three puck moving defensemen in the top four. Also, what you’ll do if Tavares doesn’t sign here.

What you’ve given so far is “my mind is on cloud 9” stuff like hey, look what our lineup can become. But that lineup still has holes. We are 29th in goals for in a now offense driven league. Tavares wouldn’t get us into the top 5-10 by himself. And I have him in my keeper pool.

None of this “I just make it happen.” Bergevin hasn’t been able to so it’s obviously not as simple as that.

EDIT: The ironic thing is that using your approach you will inevitably have to do a full rebuild rather than just a retool. Because:

1. You’ll get to the middle of the pack
2. You already don’t have any blue chip prospects coming through that will make a substantial difference
3. The draft picks you’ll get will be in the middle of the pack so won’t improve you
4. You still won’t be able to plug the holes in your lineup because if you trade someone, another hole opens
5. Your players will keep getting older, and
6. When they get old enough you have no choice but to trade them for less

Example? See Tomas Plekanec. We were saying to trade him for a 1st five years ago. Now? We’ve gone nowhere and we’ll be lucky to get a low 2nd for him now.

By retooling now you get to save some of your assets while they’re still at the top of their game.

Feel free to disagree but provide a tangible plan to go any other way.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Weber's cap hit is higher than his salary going forward. Teams that want that kind of player will make offers.

Let's not kid ourselves either he's still a hell of a defenseman too

 

[Runner77]

That’s okay to say as a fan. If the GM said this and I was his boss, I’d fire him for lack of preparation.

Your plan can’t be “I’m waiting for Tavares. I don’t have another plan right now if he doesn’t sign here, but we’ll wait and formulate one if it doesn’t happen.”

Where have we seen this kind of plan before? You don't sign Tavares cause he's either unavailable or uses Bergevin to up the ante with other clubs and then Bergevin goes to a proven plan B: more Cap Room.

 

[Runner77]

I don't think it's as bad as we perceive , the current D-corpse is performing decently without Weber.
Our lineup could be very interesting in 2018-2019 , I am definately counting on our young players to keep developping but obviously adding another top 4D can't hurt but I think adding an elite C could make a huge difference. I am by no means advocating that we count on Tavares even becoming UFA (and then signing here) but looking at this objectively , this would be our lineup:

I don't know about that. We don't have a first pairing PMD in the pipeline and one is sorely needed given the style being favored in the current NHL. Need more speed, skill and youth. You'd want to be in a position to push down Jerabek to your third pairing and dealing Alzner. Same with Danault -- I like where you have him on the third line but we all know Galchenyuk will never be used as a center. This org. needs a plan.

 

[Omar]

I don't know about that. We don't have a first pairing PMD in the pipeline and one is sorely needed given the style being favored in the current NHL. Need more speed, skill and youth. You'd want to be in a position to push down Jerabek to your third pairing and dealing Alzner. Same with Danault -- I like where you have him on the third line but we all know Galchenyuk will never be used as a center. This org. needs a plan.

Imagine trading your two best assets without filling your biggest need.

Imagine not having defensemen in the mold of the new NHL.

Imagine not having a #1C or #2C.

Imagine being 29th in goals for and 24th in goals against.

Imagine not having prospects who can fill the void.

And thinking this isnt actually that bad and signing one player solves it.

 

[pepperMonkey]

Coyotes have had this plan for how long now? Like I said, you have tunnel vision and are looking at the limited success stories and can't see how many teams are still struggling to rebuild after several years of solid draft picks.

Sorry, I think there are risks with any plan. I choose to rebuild on the fly and if Tavares wants to sign with the Habs, I certainly don't shut the door. I would have no problem with $12M but I would be a bit concerned with $15M. Regardless, I find a way to make it happen.

Err...how many teams won the cup without a rebuild in the cap era? That should give you a fairly good idea which plan has more risk.

 

[WG]

Interesting... you think it goes like Stamkos. I think Stamkos ended up re-signing because he wanted to stay but Yzerman gave used the Tax advantage perfectly. Stamkos could of got $10M+ from some team but when you factor in taxes, he likely makes the same clear take home pay if he stays in Florida at $8.5M. As far as Tavares, I personally think the Islanders need to offer him $12M or more for him to stay. If they want him to stay for $10M, he is gone

If anybody does not agree taxes are not in play, explain why Hedman signed a $7.875M contract from age 26-33 when he could of got more than Subban as a UFA.

Some alternative theories:
1. He spent his entire career with TB and wanted to stay.
2. The team had been fair with him from the beginning, he went from ELC to a 5 year contract with no fuss. He had already made about $22M in career earnings by the time he got to his age 26 contract.
3. The Lightning didn't spend seemingly every waking hour trying to undercut him and did not employ a coach who began their working relationship by announcing that Hedman had to become a better person.
4. Yzerman could have sat down with him and explained the teams philosophy and noted that with so many good players to sign, Hedman might need to leave a little on the table in order to keep more of the core players together. And Hedman could look at the roster and decide that was worth it for him.

But yeah, Taxes. Poor Bergy, deck is always stacked against him.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Correct. I think Hoffman is a elite level skater, one year younger, and signed one year more in term. I am a fan of Patch but I do think Hoffman has more value. It's close but the extra year gives Hoffman the edge IMO. The extra salary is a minor impact.

Who asks for more in a trade? Habs with Patch or the Sens with Hoffman?

Well you’re entitled to your opinion but it doesn’t make it right.

Patches is a better goal scorer, an all purpose player (PK,PP, even strength) who ou can rely on, he’s on a cheaper contract and he’s proven he’s elite.

He beats Hoffman in just about every conceivable category and he’s making almost $1Mm less than Hoffman.

Habs will ask and they will receive more for Patches than what Hoffman will get. Seriously, this isn’t even a question, the value per dollar isn’t close. Clear edge Patches.

 

[Omar]

Weber value must close to zero with that contract

I would give a lot for Nylander

Weber has a lot of value especially with that contract. His salary vs cap hit is very good going forward. We may be able to squeeze a 1st and prospect out of Ottawa for him haha

 

[CauZuki]

I don't know about that. We don't have a first pairing PMD in the pipeline and one is sorely needed given the style being favored in the current NHL. Need more speed, skill and youth. You'd want to be in a position to push down Jerabek to your third pairing and dealing Alzner. Same with Danault -- I like where you have him on the third line but we all know Galchenyuk will never be used as a center. This org. needs a plan.

I think Mete being paired with Weber could increase his chances of reaching his ceiling. I think he can easily become an excllent PMD with Weber they compliment eachother so well. Mete can move the puck and skate like the wind, while Weber brings the physicality and the big shot. Mete's ceiling is quite high (imo) and he is only 19.

I can definitely agree that swapping Alzner with a competent top4 mobile D would make this team stronger. Something like:

Mete - Weber
Oel - Petry
Jerabek - Juulsen/Schlemko

Could be quite interesting, but alas our chances of getting such a player doesn't seem in the cards with the current management.

 

[Runner77]

I think Mete being paired with Weber could increase his chances of reaching his ceiling. I think he can easily become an excllent PMD with Weber they compliment eachother so well. Mete can move the puck and skate like the wind, while Weber brings the physicality and the big shot. Mete's ceiling is quite high (imo) and he is only 19.

I can definitely agree that swapping Alzner with a competent top4 mobile D would make this team stronger. Something like:

Mete - Weber
Oel - Petry
Jerabek - Juulsen/Schlemko

Could be quite interesting, but alas our chances of getting such a player doesn't seem in the cards with the current management.

I don't know that Mete is a fast skater, but he has high hockey IQ. He's just not an offensive type of player and as your first pairing, you'd want to see some offence. I see him more as a 2nd pairing D, but of course, who knows for sure.

 

[Runner77]

Imagine trading your two best assets without filling your biggest need.

Imagine not having defensemen in the mold of the new NHL.

Imagine not having a #1C or #2C.

Imagine being 29th in goals for and 24th in goals against.

Imagine not having prospects who can fill the void.

And thinking this isnt actually that bad and signing one player solves it.

Imagine the offence from Subban, Radulov and Sergachev. Add it all up.

 

[CauZuki]

I don't know that Mete is a fast skater, but he has high hockey IQ. He's just not an offensive type of player and as your first pairing, you'd want to see some offence. I see him more as a 2nd pairing D, but of course, who knows for sure.

Really? I find that interesting, different perspectives perhaps! His skating was highly touted during the WJC, the analysts spent the whole tourney going on about how he is so mature out there and his skating reminded them of P.K.

“This is big for the Canadiens, as they don’t have another player with Mete’s ability to both skate and pass the puck at a high level. Petry is a wonderful puck rusher, but can struggle with passing. Weber can make some great stretch passes, but lacks the breakout speed and consistent outlet pass to reliably clear the defensive zone and start the rush. Mete is the only defenceman here who can do both."

 

[Runner77]

Really I find that interesting, his skating was very highly touted during the WJC. During the whole tourney they were going on about how he is so mature out there and his skating reminded them of P.K.

Now that you mention it, he's not just a smart player, but his speed is greater than I thought. I just remembered how Mete was one of the few players who was able to keep up with Connor McDavid in juniors, so I stand corrected -- he's fast.

 

[CauZuki]

Now that mention it, he's not just a smart player, but his speed is greater than I thought. I just remembered how Mete was one of the few players who was able to keep up with Connor McDavid in juniors, so I stand corrected -- he's fast.

No worries, I am a big believer in Mete, however I suspect if you ask Bergevin who the diamond in the rough is between Mete and Weber...Well we know which one he'd pick.

 

[sampollock]

patches to LA i bet......Tanner Pearson??

I hope the peg, they are loaded with young talent

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

If Tavares is signed to a $15M AAV, then it'll put pressure on the rest of the roster as it evolves. You won't be able to trade the likes of Alzner without retaining salary.

Obviously, adding a 4th long term high AAV contract in Pacioretty wouldn't even be an option.

I don't agree with your take, ultimately you can't have too much of your cap room chewed up by three players. However, that's not an issue I'd like Bergevin to contend with, hopefully it'll be for a successor with better roster management skills, should the situation even arise as it's highly speculative that Tavares will end up here to begin with.

Maybe not Alzner, but we should easily be able to trade Shaw and Petry without retaining (as long as their play don't dip).

Sure it's not the best thing to have 3 players take up that much cap space, but would you rather have 2 good players each signed at 5 million or a superstar player at 10.5 million? The habs are a much better team with Price than whatever players they will sign with the cap space that would be cleared from trading him.
Also, getting those good players won't be easy to do. It's guys like Lucic, Ladd, and Eriksson that gets available in free agency. Would rather have Price than sign those kind of guys. A Tavares-Weber-Price trio would one of the best trio in the league, if not the best.

Also, I doubt Tavares signs for 15 million. That's 2.5 million more than what McDavid signed for.
My guess would be he signs for around 12 million. He took a discount in his last contract (5.5 mil), so he doesn't seem to be obsess with money.

 

[Runner77]

Maybe not Alzner, but we should easily be able to trade Shaw and Petry without retaining (as long as their play don't dip).

Sure it's not the best thing to have 3 players take up that much cap space, but would you rather have 2 good players each signed at 5 million or a superstar player at 10.5 million? The habs are a much better team with Price than whatever players they will sign with the cap space that would be cleared from trading him.
Also, getting those good players won't be easy to do. It's guys like Lucic, Ladd, and Eriksson that gets available in free agency. Would rather have Price than sign those kind of guys. A Tavares-Weber-Price trio would one of the best trio in the league, if not the best.

Also, I doubt Tavares signs for 15 million. That's 2.5 million more than what McDavid signed for.
My guess would be he signs for around 12 million. He took a discount in his last contract (5.5 mil), so he doesn't seem to be obsess with money.

Shaw may not be as easy to move either. He's been getting injured and doesn't exactly own the most friendly of contracts.

I get the idea of wanting to lock up better players and not overpay for lower producers. Chicago tried that with Toews and Kane, it's like a Stars & Scrubs strategy -- you overuse your best players and fill the rest of your roster with young players who are cost-controlled. And when your young players are due for big raises, you have a revolving door and trade them for players who earn less, just as the Hawks have been doing on a yearly basis, rinse and repeat.

It worked for them but they had younger core assets when they signed Kane and Toews vs. what the Habs have. Not a fan of a 32 year old declining D taking up so much cap room, nor Price who has been brittle and who has been hindered by injuries, who begins a long term deal at age 30. Those are already two big commitments who will be on the other side of 30, which is why I'm not a fan of adding a third high salaried core player, especially one who will be breaking the bank and is expected to get the highest salary ever granted in NHL history.

Tavares is a a rare center coming to the market who has elite skills. McDavid took a hometown discount, it's been reported. It's a totally different situation, Tavares will be the beneficiary of an auction. There is no way his future contract will be at McDavid levels, he'll be driving up the ante. Also, it'll be his last long-term pay day, I very much doubt he'll be taking a discount -- when the chips are down and someone is a UFA, they all want their pay day. Tavares is no different.

 

[Scriptor]

Coyotes have had this plan for how long now? Like I said, you have tunnel vision and are looking at the limited success stories and can't see how many teams are still struggling to rebuild after several years of solid draft picks.

Sorry, I think there are risks with any plan. I choose to rebuild on the fly and if Tavares wants to sign with the Habs, I certainly don't shut the door. I would have no problem with $12M but I would be a bit concerned with $15M. Regardless, I find a way to make it happen.

Probably takes more than McDavid to lure Tavares. 13M should do it, IMO.

 

[LaP]

Just send Weber to stare down at Tavares. He'll sign for 6 millions.

 

[MarkovsKnee]

If we do, we better get the king's ransom from them. Weber is exactly the type-of defenceman they need. Not saying HE himself is the one, but a solid shut down guy would do a lot for them. If Weber is the target, and I'm sure Babs will do cartwheels for it, we'd better get a lot more than Nylander.

I would feel confident in saying this will never happen though. Not because of Weber going to Toronto but more because guys like Nylander I don't see MB valuing.

I agree. I can't see MB liking Nylander as a player. Also, he mainly plays on Matthews wing. Matthews, Kadri & Bozak play center for them.

The last thing I want is another young player who "needs to grow" into the center position. Yeah, I'm done with that shit. First Chucky then Drouin then Nylander? Get a f***ing center Bergevin.

If we trade Weber, I want Draisatl, a D & a 1st. Mr. Team Canada would be a huge asset to Edmonton too. They need a RHS D & a PP guy. Weber would immediately & significantly upgrade their PP & SH teams. Their specialty teams suck.

I like a deal with Edmonton over Toronto. I don't think Nylander is a #1 center.

In any case, I can't see MB trading Weber.

 

[Scriptor]

Just send Weber to stare down at Tavares. He'll sign for 6 millions.

But McDavid is said to be faster than a horse