Speculation: Ownership Saga: Coyote's Renaissance (Read Post #1)

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Desert Ice 11

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Aug 9, 2012
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Anyone else getting tired of arguing over speculation? It'd be one thing if anyone actually knew anything but no one does, not even those who think they do. It's all speculation at this point, I just wish we could at least get some hard evidence to argue over.

I am just tired of reading arguments about speculation because you know anyone claiming to know what they are talking about is full of crap.

But then again I guess some of us are insiders, bankers, loan officers, Sports Team owners (prospective sports team owners) and/or mayor of some city of the imagination. Guess I should I should shut up and listen.
 

Sinurgy

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I'm sick and tired of the inaccurate infomation given with regards to this topic and others not owning up to their own mistakes in the process. Is it too much to have to ask others to learn? Given the amount of time that has gone past and the amount news given in the process, there is no good excuse for others to not be well informed on the ownership mess and the timeline of.
You seem quite comfortable with inaccurate information as long as it supports your view. I say that because even though everyone on here is speculating, you only feel the need to call out the same few people every time. Just sayin

I don't feel that pessimistic regarding the team staying right now. I think it's probably still 50-50. I can't make the assumption that Glendale elected officials will have the balls to make a tough, permanent decision and let the team go. I can imagine both sides listing a bunch of fictitious 'new revenue sources' that will make the deal seem more palatable. Those won't actually help the budget, but by the time the story dies in a month or two, no-one will care.

I do feel very negative abut the whole thing. It pisses me off. The league, RSE and city officials who will vote for this sham of a deal all piss me off.

On top of it, statistically, over 50% of Arizona fans posting here would probably call themselves 'fiscal conservatives' when it comes to political views (I mean, unless hockey fans are weirdly weighted towards government spending in general and don't actually represent a segment of the Arizona population). Yet in this case, no-one gives a **** about elected officials making responsible budget decisions that will help their constituents. In the end, this is just another case of 'fiscal responsibility for all, except when it actually affects me'. The hypocrisy of it all makes me sick.
If you'd stop erecting these strawmen, you wouldn't have to be so frustrated. I don't mean that as a shot either, I'm just saying you might want to wait to see what the actual details are before getting so worked up.

As for fiscally conservative, it doesn't really exist. The only difference between fiscally conservative and fiscally liberal is where the money goes.
E.g. you'll find few "fiscal conservatives" who have a problem with the ginormous military budget.
 
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rt

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May 13, 2004
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Draft is this Sunday. Free agency is the following Friday. Surely it will be too late to move the team after those two milestones, right? If the team is still here after Independence Day, they can't very will pick up stakes and go somewhere on UFA day, could they?
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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How do you know they have no money?

Sorry to intrude, but I think that the financial wherewithal of the RSE group is a reasonable and important question.

First, the IEH guys have previously disappointed the COG by failing to provide evidence of their financial wherewithal after agreeing on a lease agreement with the COG and negotiating an exclusivity deal.

Second, it has been reported that RSE will obtain a loan of $120 million from Fortress at 9% interest to purchase the team. The annual AMF from the COG will be used to pay back that loan. If RSE had the money to purchase the team and operate the franchise, do you think that they would take a $120 million loan at 9% interest and then use their AMF to pay back the principal and interest? That doesn't seem like a sound financial plan.
 

ClassLessCoyote

Staying classy
Jun 10, 2009
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I am just tired of reading arguments about speculation because you know anyone claiming to know what they are talking about is full of crap.

But then again I guess some of us are insiders, bankers, loan officers, Sports Team owners (prospective sports team owners) and/or mayor of some city of the imagination. Guess I should I should shut up and listen.


You seem quite comfortable with inaccurate information as long as it supports your view. I say that because even though everyone on here is speculating, you only feel the need to call out the same few people every time. Just sayin

"Speculation" and "Speculating" are the new buzzwords going around by those who don't like facts. You're also wrong as well seeing that several posters here(myself included) had to correct others several times and sadly that infomation continues to fall on deaf ears in a downright embarrassing fashion.

Sorry to intrude, but I think that the financial wherewithal of the RSE group is a reasonable and important question.

First, the IEH guys have previously disappointed the COG by failing to provide evidence of their financial wherewithal after agreeing on a lease agreement with the COG and negotiating an exclusivity deal.

Second, it has been reported that RSE will obtain a loan of $120 million from Fortress at 9% interest to purchase the team. The annual AMF from the COG will be used to pay back that loan. If RSE had the money to purchase the team and operate the franchise, do you think that they would take a $120 million loan at 9% interest and then use their AMF to pay back the principal and interest? That doesn't seem like a sound financial plan.

Thank you but sadly others here have tried to explain this to others here and it's stuff like this that continues to fall on deaf ears. Sadly, RSE is not the 1st group to try and get Glendale to cover the cost of the over inflated asking price. For example, there was MH who was trying to secure $100 Million from the city while he only looking to pay $70 Million(about $50 Million less than what he offered to pay for the St. Louis Blues) of his own money to buy the Coyotes. Even more sad is that this infomation continues to fall on deaf ears as demonstrated by the buzzwords used like "speculation" and simple rhetorical remarks as;

"How do you know?"
"Pretending to have inside infomation."
"You don't know anything from these meeting."

Makes me ****ing sick to my stomach.
 

zz

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Nov 1, 2006
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If you'd stop erecting these strawmen, you wouldn't have to be so frustrated. I don't mean that as a shot either, I'm just saying you might want to wait to see what the actual details are before getting so worked up.

Calling my arguments 'strawmen' is a reach. I don't think I'm inventing anything. Granted, my opinion is based on unconfirmed rumors and leaks as well as Ice Edge's (LeBlanc & Jones) 4-year history. But that's all we've got, and your opinion is formed from the same information. Is it possible that those 2 guys are actually great businessmen, that the leaked information regarding the 2 loans is actually completely false, that those 'new revenues' are real, that the AMF ends up lower than $ 15M, and that Gosbee will put more money in to keep the team longer than 5 years? Sure, anything's possible, but I don't know what piece of information makes you believe any of this is likely to happen.

As for fiscally conservative, it doesn't really exist. The only difference between fiscally conservative and fiscally liberal is where the money goes.
E.g. you'll find few "fiscal conservatives" who have a problem with the ginormous military budget.

While that is all true, it doesn't make it less hypocritical.
 

ClassLessCoyote

Staying classy
Jun 10, 2009
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I dislike Bickley and don't think he could write his way out of a paper bag. Yet at the same time he had a AZ Rep article a week ago declaring impending doom for the team. It's an unusual shift for him to suddenly become optimistic.

This. Bickley may be a turd overall, but very uncharacteristic of him to suddenly become the bearer of good tidings, esp. with the Yotes. Definitely worth noting.

Nothing about Bickley really surprises me given what he has written. This is the same guy who said the DBacks were entitled to some "civic duty" a couple of seasons ago because they're winning and no excuses for not selling out the joint. Yet, he never once called for the people of the Valley to sellout Jobing.com Arena when the Coyotes are winning.

I just see the latest "news" by him as just a piss poor troll attempt since he knows he is not well liked by most Coyotes Fans.
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
46,061
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"Speculation" and "Speculating" are the new buzzwords going around by those who don't like facts. You're also wrong as well seeing that several posters here(myself included) had to correct others several times and sadly that infomation continues to fall on deaf ears in a downright embarrassing fashion.



Thank you but sadly others here have tried to explain this to others here and it's stuff like this that continues to fall on deaf ears. Sadly, RSE is not the 1st group to try and get Glendale to cover the cost of the over inflated asking price. For example, there was MH who was trying to secure $100 Million from the city while he only looking to pay $70 Million(about $50 Million less than what he offered to pay for the St. Louis Blues) of his own money to buy the Coyotes. Even more sad is that this infomation continues to fall on deaf ears as demonstrated by the buzzwords used like "speculation" and simple rhetorical remarks as;

"How do you know?"
"Pretending to have inside infomation."
"You don't know anything from these meeting."

Makes me ****ing sick to my stomach.

I've contended for some time that the NHL literally owes it to the COG to chop the sale price to facilitate a sale. The COG went to bat for the NHL to rebuff Balsillie in the bankruptcy auction, and then trusted them when they pledged the $25 +$25 million to cover operating costs with assurances from the NHL that it was just an insurance policy. If the NHL had any sense of decency they'd follow their rhetoric about wanting to keep the team in Glendale by chopping the sale price and facilitating a local sale without furthering the undue financial stress on the COG. Their failure to do this has resulted in a string of poorly conceived ownership bids that rely too heavily on subsidies from the COG to help finance the transaction.
 

zz

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Nov 1, 2006
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I've contended for some time that the NHL literally owes it to the COG to chop the sale price to facilitate a sale. The COG went to bat for the NHL to rebuff Balsillie in the bankruptcy auction, and then trusted them when they pledged the $25 +$25 million to cover operating costs with assurances from the NHL that it was just an insurance policy. If the NHL had any sense of decency they'd follow their rhetoric about wanting to keep the team in Glendale by chopping the sale price and facilitating a local sale without furthering the undue financial stress on the COG. Their failure to do this has resulted in a string of poorly conceived ownership bids that rely too heavily on subsidies from the COG to help finance the transaction.

Yes, for the sake of fairness it would have been the right thing to do. But as a business, the NHL played their cards right. It's not like they ever hinted at reducing the sale price. They never presented it as an option. For the city to put so much trust and money into this was just an act of desperation, and in hindsight, a poor decision.
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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Sorry to intrude, but I think that the financial wherewithal of the RSE group is a reasonable and important question.

First, the IEH guys have previously disappointed the COG by failing to provide evidence of their financial wherewithal after agreeing on a lease agreement with the COG and negotiating an exclusivity deal.

Second, it has been reported that RSE will obtain a loan of $120 million from Fortress at 9% interest to purchase the team. The annual AMF from the COG will be used to pay back that loan. If RSE had the money to purchase the team and operate the franchise, do you think that they would take a $120 million loan at 9% interest and then use their AMF to pay back the principal and interest? That doesn't seem like a sound financial plan.

Nine percent, huh? Yeesh. So if they're paying back fortress 11m/yr and it must cost a few million a year to actually run the arena, and the desired AMF is only 15m/yr, it sounds like they've got no subsidy left for losses, but only to pay back debt and cover the actual arena mgt costs. They've still got hockey team ownership costs and losses left to pay. Yikes.
 

Sinurgy

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"Speculation" and "Speculating" are the new buzzwords going around by those who don't like facts. You're also wrong as well seeing that several posters here(myself included) had to correct others several times and sadly that infomation continues to fall on deaf ears in a downright embarrassing fashion.
I use the word all the time, are you really trying to claim I don't like facts? Stop being silly. As for that "buzzword" you might want to look at the actual definition of it because I don't think you'll find a more accurate word for this situation.

speculating - to form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence

Calling my arguments 'strawmen' is a reach. I don't think I'm inventing anything. Granted, my opinion is based on unconfirmed rumors and leaks as well as Ice Edge's (LeBlanc & Jones) 4-year history. But that's all we've got, and your opinion is formed from the same information. Is it possible that those 2 guys are actually great businessmen, that the leaked information regarding the 2 loans is actually completely false, that those 'new revenues' are real, that the AMF ends up lower than $ 15M, and that Gosbee will put more money in to keep the team longer than 5 years? Sure, anything's possible, but I don't know what piece of information makes you believe any of this is likely to happen.
My point is most of what you rage about is propped up by assumptions that may or may not be true, just seems like wasted energy.

I see what you did there, write up a silly scenario and then feign confusion as to why I think that's going to happen. The intention is of course to knock my credibility by making it seem as though I am a believer in the silly scenario. I'm not sure if you do it on purpose or it's just your black and white style but either way, I will state emphatically that your silly scenario is indeed silly and in no way do I think that is likely to occur.
 

Mr Pukhead

Where's my ambulance
Jan 18, 2011
131
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I use the word all the time, are you really trying to claim I don't like facts? Stop being silly. As for that "buzzword" you might want to look at the actual definition of it because I don't think you'll find a more accurate word for this situation.

speculating - to form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence
...

That and the "new buzzword" is in the actual title of the thread.

So there's that.
 

ClassLessCoyote

Staying classy
Jun 10, 2009
30,112
277
I use the word all the time, are you really trying to claim I don't like facts? Stop being silly. As for that "buzzword" you might want to look at the actual definition of it because I don't think you'll find a more accurate word for this situation.

speculating - to form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence


My point is most of what you rage about is propped up by assumptions that may or may not be true, just seems like wasted energy.

I see what you did there, write up a silly scenario and then feign confusion as to why I think that's going to happen. The intention is of course to knock my credibility by making it seem as though I am a believer in the silly scenario. I'm not sure if you do it on purpose or it's just your black and white style but either way, I will state emphatically that your silly scenario is indeed silly and in no way do I think that is likely to occur.

:blah:

I can cite the dictionary too.

"Buzzword"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/buzzword

1

: an important-sounding usually technical word or phrase often of little meaning used chiefly to impress laymen


Laymen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layperson

A layperson or layman is a person who is not an expert in a given field of knowledge.

Fact

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

A fact (derived from the Latin factum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case.

Truth: Most of those who are too positive about this mess have proven themselves to be laymen with the amont of inaccurate info given and not owing up to their own errors as pointed out by those who are knowledgeable about the whole ownership mess. They use buzzwords in order to sound like they know what they are talking about when they don't.
 

ClassLessCoyote

Staying classy
Jun 10, 2009
30,112
277
I've contended for some time that the NHL literally owes it to the COG to chop the sale price to facilitate a sale. The COG went to bat for the NHL to rebuff Balsillie in the bankruptcy auction, and then trusted them when they pledged the $25 +$25 million to cover operating costs with assurances from the NHL that it was just an insurance policy. If the NHL had any sense of decency they'd follow their rhetoric about wanting to keep the team in Glendale by chopping the sale price and facilitating a local sale without furthering the undue financial stress on the COG. Their failure to do this has resulted in a string of poorly conceived ownership bids that rely too heavily on subsidies from the COG to help finance the transaction.

Yes, for the sake of fairness it would have been the right thing to do. But as a business, the NHL played their cards right. It's not like they ever hinted at reducing the sale price. They never presented it as an option. For the city to put so much trust and money into this was just an act of desperation, and in hindsight, a poor decision.

This is all speculation. How do you know? This is all pretending to have inside infomation. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Based on what is presnted here I am reminded once again that "business ethics" is an oxymoron.

Nine percent, huh? Yeesh. So if they're paying back fortress 11m/yr and it must cost a few million a year to actually run the arena, and the desired AMF is only 15m/yr, it sounds like they've got no subsidy left for losses, but only to pay back debt and cover the actual arena mgt costs. They've still got hockey team ownership costs and losses left to pay. Yikes.

But as fans we don't have the right to ask for a winning team even though we supported the team in the past for being a losing one. :sarcasm: We're such bad fans if we are asking for the Stanley Cup or to have a consistant cup contender for years to come. :sarcasm: We're bad fans as well for asking for the team to be placed into a business model that works for having a winner and a stable business as well. :sarcasm:
 

Dirty Old Man

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But as fans we don't have the right to ask for a winning team even though we supported the team in the past for being a losing one. :sarcasm: We're such bad fans if we are asking for the Stanley Cup or to have a consistant cup contender for years to come. :sarcasm: We're bad fans as well for asking for the team to be placed into a business model that works for having a winner and a stable business as well. :sarcasm:

Which explains all those horrible fans in Toronto and throughout Canada :sarcasm: one thing they *don't* ever have to worry about is the team leaving.

If the patient dies, it doesn't matter if you have the ability to fix his broken bones. :sarcasm:
 

Howler Scores

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Mar 13, 2011
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A concession and a use of force move all in one:

City Hall, escrow account come into play in Coyotes saga

Here’s the flip side: One of those $25 million payments (from 2012) has not been collected by the league yet. There is $20 million sitting in an escrow account and $5 million which the city hasn’t yet paid (the city didn’t pay the NHL anything during the 2013 lockout-shortened season).

In the latest concession to the city, the NHL has agreed to allow repayment of that money over a five-year period, allowing Glendale to use the money in the meantime and possibly earn interest, multiple sources have confirmed to FOX Sports Arizona.

http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/nhl...nt-come-into-play-?blockID=914979&feedID=3702

So Glendale would get their $20 million back now while $5 million a year is due to the NHL for the next 5 years. More on the lease back option mentioned to repay the funds used for the original payments:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20130624glendale-may-leverage-city-hall.html

Background on other buildings used in this way:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/09/04/20090904budget-dps0904.html

And a complete OT read on buying the buildings back:

http://phoenix.about.com/b/2012/01/11/arizona-to-buy-back-the-state-capitol.htm
 

zz

Registered User
Nov 1, 2006
6,169
343
I see what you did there, write up a silly scenario and then feign confusion as to why I think that's going to happen. The intention is of course to knock my credibility by making it seem as though I am a believer in the silly scenario. I'm not sure if you do it on purpose or it's just your black and white style but either way, I will state emphatically that your silly scenario is indeed silly and in no way do I think that is likely to occur.

No, I didn't mean to paint a silly scenario. My point was that for the team to succeed, at least one of the things I listed would need to happen. Reading back my comment, I should have ended the list with an 'OR' instead of an 'AND'. But if none of it happens, based on the information we have, the team cannot survive more than 5 years.

I don't understand why you're being so defensive about this. I don't accuse you of 'knocking my credibility' by calling my concerns 'straw men'. You don't have to be so sensitive, we're just disagreeing here. :cheers:
 

Sinurgy

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No, I didn't mean to paint a silly scenario. My point was that for the team to succeed, at least one of the things I listed would need to happen. Reading back my comment, I should have ended the list with an 'OR' instead of an 'AND'. But if none of it happens, based on the information we have, the team cannot survive more than 5 years.

I don't understand why you're being so defensive about this. I don't accuse you of 'knocking my credibility' by calling my concerns 'straw men'. You don't have to be so sensitive, we're just disagreeing here. :cheers:
Oh I wasn't being sensitive, I was actually intending to come across as very matter of fact. It's just one of those lost in translation scenarios that can often occur when communicating with words only. :cheers:
 

zz

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Nov 1, 2006
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You need people to agree with you to keep your sanity - OK.


“Perhaps a lunatic was simply a minority of one. At one time it had been a sign of madness to believe that the Earth goes round the Sun; today, to believe the past is inalterable. He might be alone in holding that belief, and if alone, then a lunatic. But the thought of being a lunatic did not greatly trouble him; the horror was that he might also be wrong.”
― George Orwell, 1984

Not being alone makes me feel less like a lunatic. :laugh:
 
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XX

Waiting for Ishbia
Dec 10, 2002
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@PaulGiblinAriz: The #Glendale council wants more from the prospective #Coyotes owners. Another private council meeting is set for Friday

@PaulGiblinAriz 1m
No deal points on a #Glendale-#Coyotes deal will be released Wednesday as previously was expected, because there is no deal.

Well, that hammer dropped. For those keeping score at home, this changes the timeframe for a vote and moves it into problematic territory.
 
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