Post-Game Talk: Ovi's Stanley Cup Champs visit SENS, Sat. 7:00pm (Xmas Edition Part II)

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
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I thought he was good. He demonstrated escapability with the puck in his own zone. Advanced the puck with poise and accuracy. Had good gap , broke up plays. Was able to skate the puck out of his end 2-3 times. He earned himself another game at least. We can use his mobility and pm skills while Chabot is out.

I hope the Sens don't screw this kid over. He has talent.
Chabot is going to be the #1 LD on this team for quite some time which leaves Lajoie & Wolanin fighting for the 2nd LD spot IMO. Don't you think it might come down to one or the other given they will need a bigger, tougher LD on that 3rd pairing (Harpur)? They may choose to let Wolanin play his off side & sit DeMello which IMO when everyone is healthy should probably happen, but I'm not so sure about that with this coach.

I just don't see Chabot, Wolanin & Lajoie on the left side, IMO it would just be too soft & get pushed around way too much. If I had to choose I would probably keep Wolanin since he can move into the top pairing & play more like Chabot than Lajoie can when needed. On the other side, they will need JBD to become a top pairing RD, if he can beat out Ceci & Jaros for either of the top two pairings. Would love to be able to acquire Cal Foote RD from Tampa.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,166
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We need to get some good mentors for the kids. You don't just hope that a kid you draft becomes a top D down the line and wait for it to happen.

Something is going to have to give on D because Chabot is the only great dman we have, he allows DeMelo to play out of his depth (like Karlsson did with Methot). Lajoie probably tops out as a 5, Ceci is a boreline 4 and the rest are 7s. Wolanin is promising but we need better defensive players.

Until something is done about that backend, this team isn't improving.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Jul 9, 2013
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Chabot is going to be the #1 LD on this team for quite some time which leaves Lajoie & Wolanin fighting for the 2nd LD spot IMO. Don't you think it might come down to one or the other given they will need a bigger, tougher LD on that 3rd pairing (Harpur)? They may choose to let Wolanin play his off side & sit DeMello which IMO when everyone is healthy should probably happen, but I'm not so sure about that with this coach.

I just don't see Chabot, Wolanin & Lajoie on the left side, IMO it would just be too soft & get pushed around way too much. If I had to choose I would probably keep Wolanin since he can move into the top pairing & play more like Chabot than Lajoie can when needed. On the other side, they will need JBD to become a top pairing RD, if he can beat out Ceci & Jaros for either of the top two pairings. Would love to be able to acquire Cal Foote RD from Tampa.

I am not saying this is ideal, but I would give it a try
1st. Trade Ceci for futures
----------------------------------
Chabot Harpur
Wolanin Demelo
Lajoie Jaros
Boro

I get that Wolanin and Lajoie are not going to beat you with their size but they can both think and move the puck

Here we effectively have Wolanin in Boro out and Ceci out. Boro can be the 7th... Ceci is shipped out.
 

solidprospect

Borveetzky
Sep 30, 2017
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He was ok.. He ran himself out of position at least 4 or 5 times. I still think if he had a snow scraper instead of a stick he'd be a lot better.. I am not sure if he has figured out how to actually use a hockey stick.
i think Boro would be the first to admit hes not out there for his stick handling. He normally doesn't try having the puck on his stick very long and makes the simple plays.

Before being able to score and move the puck it's important that defenceman actually play defence. Some of our d have trouble with defending, some with offense.
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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Jul 9, 2013
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i think Boro would be the first to admit hes not out there for his stick handling. He normally doesn't try having the puck on his stick very long and makes the simple plays.

Before being able to score and move the puck it's important that defenceman actually play defence. Some of our d have trouble with defending, some with offense.

If the guys that are supposed to be defensive guys can't defend .. I'd give the offensive guys a try; We might get the puck moving out of our end with some control
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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Chabot is going to be the #1 LD on this team for quite some time which leaves Lajoie & Wolanin fighting for the 2nd LD spot IMO. Don't you think it might come down to one or the other given they will need a bigger, tougher LD on that 3rd pairing (Harpur)? They may choose to let Wolanin play his off side & sit DeMello which IMO when everyone is healthy should probably happen, but I'm not so sure about that with this coach.

I just don't see Chabot, Wolanin & Lajoie on the left side, IMO it would just be too soft & get pushed around way too much. If I had to choose I would probably keep Wolanin since he can move into the top pairing & play more like Chabot than Lajoie can when needed. On the other side, they will need JBD to become a top pairing RD, if he can beat out Ceci & Jaros for either of the top two pairings. Would love to be able to acquire Cal Foote RD from Tampa.

How does having a "tough" dman on one pairing suddenly change us from to soft to ok? Does having Boro or Harpur play 10-13 mins a night on the third pair suddenly make Chabot and Lajoie/Wolanin not too soft in the top 4? Like, they only get pushed around when the 3rd guy on a different pairing is also small?

If you really must add a bruiser to the lineup to infuse some mystical intangible toughness that will permeate through the lineup, do it with a forward. Sheltering Dmen has to big of an effect, you got to take the best buys first and foremost.
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
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How does having a "tough" dman on one pairing suddenly change us from to soft to ok? Does having Boro or Harpur play 10-13 mins a night on the third pair suddenly make Chabot and Lajoie/Wolanin not too soft in the top 4? Like, they only get pushed around when the 3rd guy on a different pairing is also small?

If you really must add a bruiser to the lineup to infuse some mystical intangible toughness that will permeate through the lineup, do it with a forward. Sheltering Dmen has to big of an effect, you got to take the best buys first and foremost.
You need bigger & tougher players on defence to move those guys from in front of the net & give your goalie some support. The team played better defensively when Falk & Harpur were both in the lineup, the smaller defencemen get knocked off the puck easily & can get trapped in their own end, we see it all the time. Having said that though, they also have the ability to skate it out if they are not touched, but if they are they can just as easily lose the puck. It would be nice to have one of each on each pairing. It's clearly a balance, you need both & IMO the third pairing is where traditionally most teams have their defensive defencemen who also double as enforcers.

I agree they should have a forward look after the toughness but they don't have that & I suspect with this coach they won't ether. Fighting & intimidation are still a part of hockey & they either answer the bell or they get pushed around & your elite players get targeted. Any one of Ross Johnson, Matt Martin & Tom Wilson would be great to have on the team to take care of that part of the business as Chris Neil did to be a deterrent. But Ottawa doesn't have a player like that in their system who is good enough to play in the NHL, they could use one. They do have a few D that can at the moment. What would it cost to get Ross Johnson from the NYI? What would Tom Wilson cost right about now?
 

God Says No

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Mar 16, 2012
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You need bigger & tougher players on defence to move those guys from in front of the net & give your goalie some support. The team played better defensively when Falk & Harpur were both in the lineup, the smaller defencemen get knocked off the puck easily & can get trapped in their own end, we see it all the time. Having said that though, they also have the ability to skate it out if they are not touched, but if they are they can just as easily lose the puck. It would be nice to have one of each on each pairing. It's clearly a balance, you need both & IMO the third pairing is where traditionally most teams have their defensive defencemen who also double as enforcers.

I agree they should have a forward look after the toughness but they don't have that & I suspect with this coach they won't ether. Fighting & intimidation are still a part of hockey & they either answer the bell or they get pushed around & your elite players get targeted. Any one of Ross Johnson, Matt Martin & Tom Wilson would be great to have on the team to take care of that part of the business as Chris Neil did to be a deterrent. But Ottawa doesn't have a player like that in their system who is good enough to play in the NHL, they could use one. They do have a few D that can at the moment. What would it cost to get Ross Johnson from the NYI? What would Tom Wilson cost right about now?

Come on now. The team did not play better defensively when Falk and Harpur were in there. That's disingenuous and ridiculous. We were shitty with them, and we're shitty without.

You bring up that we need bigger guys because:

- smaller guys get knocked off the puck easier - NOT TRUE - it all depends on your puck protection skills and has very little to do with your size, although being bigger gives you a small advantage. Look at Alfie, he was not big by any means and was one of the better puck protectors in the league. We don't need bigger guys, we need guys who can move the puck and protect it.
- they can't clear out the net - NOT TRUE - especially with the new NHL you can't do what you did in the 80's and 90's and just cross-check, punch, and rough up without getting a penalty. What you do need to do is box out and tie up sticks. Again this is a fallacy you are trying to push.

Also your point about getting a "tough guy" is meaningless. So we're going to go out and get one of these guys to play "tough" against 2 or 3 teams? But the rest of the time they are useless since most teams don't employ any "tough guys"? For what, to intimidate? You do understand that intimidation was never a thing. Guys will hit, slash, cross-check, etc. even if you do employ a "tough guy". Back in the day you had teams who had multiple "tough guys", and yet all those things still occurred. You know the solution to this is? The refs actually being consistent. If Martin was assessed a penalty and thrown out of the game for trying to injure, that shitty play would not occur again. I don't understand how hockey needs enforcers but an equivalent violent sport like the NFL doesn't and it's fine. Are hockey players that much more lacking respect that need to enforced by opponents?
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
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Come on now. The team did not play better defensively when Falk and Harpur were in there. That's disingenuous and ridiculous. We were ****ty with them, and we're ****ty without.

You bring up that we need bigger guys because:

- smaller guys get knocked off the puck easier - NOT TRUE - it all depends on your puck protection skills and has very little to do with your size, although being bigger gives you a small advantage. Look at Alfie, he was not big by any means and was one of the better puck protectors in the league. We don't need bigger guys, we need guys who can move the puck and protect it.
- they can't clear out the net - NOT TRUE - especially with the new NHL you can't do what you did in the 80's and 90's and just cross-check, punch, and rough up without getting a penalty. What you do need to do is box out and tie up sticks. Again this is a fallacy you are trying to push.

Also your point about getting a "tough guy" is meaningless. So we're going to go out and get one of these guys to play "tough" against 2 or 3 teams? But the rest of the time they are useless since most teams don't employ any "tough guys"? For what, to intimidate? You do understand that intimidation was never a thing. Guys will hit, slash, cross-check, etc. even if you do employ a "tough guy". Back in the day you had teams who had multiple "tough guys", and yet all those things still occurred. You know the solution to this is? The refs actually being consistent. If Martin was assessed a penalty and thrown out of the game for trying to injure, that ****ty play would not occur again. I don't understand how hockey needs enforcers but an equivalent violent sport like the NFL doesn't and it's fine. Are hockey players that much more lacking respect that need to enforced by opponents?

This board has been crying for refs to call penalties since the beginning of time & here we are yrs later still asking for the same thing & not accepting that isn't going to change. I'm quite sure every fan base feels the same way. If the refs started calling all those penalties & they have tried that before, it kills momentum & we have a parade to the penalty box & players, management & fans hate it. There is still intimidation in hockey we see it all the time with players calling out other players & we see how some players become invisible when the going gets tough. Fighting in hockey has been a tradition for decades, some teams go without enforcers & others still cling to the idea to protect their stars. It's a difference of opinion, philosophy & strategy in hockey whether it still applies or not with differing or competing schools of thought.

Our small players are not Alfie & using him as an example doesn't make the guys we have now better, they are not going to magically turn into puck possessors. Crosby is great at protecting the puck but I doubt any of our players turn into him magically either, they are what they are, but hopefully they can get better with experience. Not every enforcer is a guy who can't play every shift, Tom Wilson is a great example of the perfect enforcer in that he can also play every shift & that's the kind of player I would like to see Ottawa acquire. But nobody wanted Wilson in his draft yr because he was considered a 4th line goon, how wrong they were. Now look at what he is worth & what he has done for his team, he's a difference maker & the Capitals play with all kinds of confidence with him in their lineup. It's a difference of opinion.

IMO the worse thing that happened to hockey was the instigator rule which gave us the cowardly rats that purposely try & get guys to drop the gloves first to get the PP. Having a team full of enforcers doesn't work just as having a team full of skilled players doesn't work when they get physically punished. IMO you need a balance of both. This team sucks right now because a number of their best players are young & inexperienced, some of their vets suck, the goaltending sucks & the coach sucks. The young guys need some protection or they will be targeted in every game. Isn't that the strategy of every coach to punish & wear down the opposition's best players? And if they get hurt, too bad but good for us. People love to point to certain teams & players who are elite in this league as examples of how things should be done. And that would be great if we had those players but we don't, we have who we have & it's impossible to expect them to play like those elite players.

In every one of these series below Ottawa fans were crying for the refs to call more penalties against the other teams, but they didn't. They called the game or managed it the way they always do & let a lot of stuff go in the playoffs the way they also do. Gooning it up has worked for Ottawa when certain coaches have used that strategy as BM did the yr they went to the finals & PM used it against Montreal & the NYR & it has worked against Ottawa when coaches refused to respond to it.

1. EK gets punched in the face by Boyle, PM has to bring in Calkner to change the momentum & he does.
2. Tanner Glass is having his way with the Sens, GB has to bring in Neil to deter his effectiveness, he does & the series changes momentum.
3. Pronger elbows McCammond knocks him out of the series, no response from Ottawa & the series is over.
4. Domi, Tucker & Roberts man handle the Sens, JM refuses to respond & is taken to school by PQ not once, but four separate yrs.
5. PM deliberately plays a physical brand of hockey against Montreal & schools Therien & Ottawa wins the series.
 

BondraTime

Registered User
Nov 20, 2005
28,584
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East Coast
This board has been crying for refs to call penalties since the beginning of time & here we are yrs later still asking for the same thing & not accepting that isn't going to change. I'm quite sure every fan base feels the same way. If the refs started calling all those penalties & they have tried that before, it kills momentum & we have a parade to the penalty box & players, management & fans hate it. There is still intimidation in hockey we see it all the time with players calling out other players & we see how some players become invisible when the going gets tough. Fighting in hockey has been a tradition for decades, some teams go without enforcers & others still cling to the idea to protect their stars. It's a difference of opinion, philosophy & strategy in hockey whether it still applies or not with differing or competing schools of thought.

Our small players are not Alfie & using him as an example doesn't make the guys we have now better, they are not going to magically turn into puck possessors. Crosby is great at protecting the puck but I doubt any of our players turn into him magically either, they are what they are, but hopefully they can get better with experience. Not every enforcer is a guy who can't play every shift, Tom Wilson is a great example of the perfect enforcer in that he can also play every shift & that's the kind of player I would like to see Ottawa acquire. But nobody wanted Wilson in his draft yr because he was considered a 4th line goon, how wrong they were. Now look at what he is worth & what he has done for his team, he's a difference maker & the Capitals play with all kinds of confidence with him in their lineup. It's a difference of opinion.

IMO the worse thing that happened to hockey was the instigator rule which gave us the cowardly rats that purposely try & get guys to drop the gloves first to get the PP. Having a team full of enforcers doesn't work just as having a team full of skilled players doesn't work when they get physically punished. IMO you need a balance of both. This team sucks right now because a number of their best players are young & inexperienced, some of their vets suck, the goaltending sucks & the coach sucks. The young guys need some protection or they will be targeted in every game. Isn't that the strategy of every coach to punish & wear down the opposition's best players? And if they get hurt, too bad but good for us. People love to point to certain teams & players who are elite in this league as examples of how things should be done. And that would be great if we had those players but we don't, we have who we have & it's impossible to expect them to play like those elite players.

In every one of these series below Ottawa fans were crying for the refs to call more penalties against the other teams, but they didn't. They called the game or managed it the way they always do & let a lot of stuff go in the playoffs the way they also do. Gooning it up has worked for Ottawa when certain coaches have used that strategy as BM did the yr they went to the finals & PM used it against Montreal & the NYR & it has worked against Ottawa when coaches refused to respond to it.

1. EK gets punched in the face by Boyle, PM has to bring in Calkner to change the momentum & he does.
2. Tanner Glass is having his way with the Sens, GB has to bring in Neil to deter his effectiveness, he does & the series changes momentum.
3. Pronger elbows McCammond knocks him out of the series, no response from Ottawa & the series is over.
4. Domi, Tucker & Roberts man handle the Sens, JM refuses to respond & is taken to school by PQ not once, but four separate yrs.
5. PM deliberately plays a physical brand of hockey against Montreal & schools Therien & Ottawa wins the series.
Yes, if we had McGratton answer the bell there we would have turned the tide of the series!

Had nothing to do with 2 hall of fame defenders, hall of fame winger, 2 superstar rookies, and the best shutdown line in the modern era...

That's absurd

Lalmie not being able to stop a beach ball never helped. He was the reason they lost in 04'. Nieuwendyk scored 2 goals a midget B goalie wouldn't let in game 7. Not to mention hockey isn't the same as it was in the 90's and
early 00's

Boyle getting wiped by Neil and Carkner was great. It never resulted in much other than a moral victory in game 2 that led to our OT win (followed by another loss) and us losing the series

NY won their games at home, not surprising in the playoffs. Neil gets brought in and we win the next 2. Was great when he jumped him, Glass was running around. Probably the best example you have.

The year BM went to the finals we had the Pizza line carrying us, and then guys like Fisher/Schaeffer/Comrie plaing secondary pieces. We weren't using hard tactics, we were outskilling the teams and then run into probably the best team of the past 2 decades.
 
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God Says No

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Mar 16, 2012
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This board has been crying for refs to call penalties since the beginning of time & here we are yrs later still asking for the same thing & not accepting that isn't going to change. I'm quite sure every fan base feels the same way. If the refs started calling all those penalties & they have tried that before, it kills momentum & we have a parade to the penalty box & players, management & fans hate it. There is still intimidation in hockey we see it all the time with players calling out other players & we see how some players become invisible when the going gets tough. Fighting in hockey has been a tradition for decades, some teams go without enforcers & others still cling to the idea to protect their stars. It's a difference of opinion, philosophy & strategy in hockey whether it still applies or not with differing or competing schools of thought.

That's not due to intimidation, that's due to some players not performing well under high stress situations like the playoffs. It's not they are afraid they'll get punched in the face, they're afraid to make a mistake, not skilled enough, don't have the makeup to rise up to the occasion. 0% due to being afraid. You are selling something that doesn't really exist in today's game. Now, do some players get intimidated. Sure, but don't think it's as wide spread as you make it out to be. It's very minute now, and was before as well. Dinosaurs like you and Don Cherry sure like to sell this.


Our small players are not Alfie & using him as an example doesn't make the guys we have now better, they are not going to magically turn into puck possessors. Crosby is great at protecting the puck but I doubt any of our players turn into him magically either, they are what they are, but hopefully they can get better with experience. Not every enforcer is a guy who can't play every shift, Tom Wilson is a great example of the perfect enforcer in that he can also play every shift & that's the kind of player I would like to see Ottawa acquire. But nobody wanted Wilson in his draft yr because he was considered a 4th line goon, how wrong they were. Now look at what he is worth & what he has done for his team, he's a difference maker & the Capitals play with all kinds of confidence with him in their lineup. It's a difference of opinion.

Well, that's the thing. We should get more players who can protect the puck like Alfie, and not goons like Ross Johnson or Matt Martin. Tom Wilson is different case. I'd love Tom on this team, but his ilk is very rare to find. While guys who can protect the puck and can score can be found more easily. To be honest though Wilson is not the straw that stirs that drink of a team. Ovechkin, Kuznetsov, Calson, Backstrom are way more important on their team.

IMO the worse thing that happened to hockey was the instigator rule which gave us the cowardly rats that purposely try & get guys to drop the gloves first to get the PP. Having a team full of enforcers doesn't work just as having a team full of skilled players doesn't work when they get physically punished. IMO you need a balance of both. This team sucks right now because a number of their best players are young & inexperienced, some of their vets suck, the goaltending sucks & the coach sucks. The young guys need some protection or they will be targeted in every game. Isn't that the strategy of every coach to punish & wear down the opposition's best players? And if they get hurt, too bad but good for us. People love to point to certain teams & players who are elite in this league as examples of how things should be done. And that would be great if we had those players but we don't, we have who we have & it's impossible to expect them to play like those elite players.

I don't mind the instigator. It just needs to be called consistently.

I do agree with you a good balance is needed. You can't have a team full of goons, just like you can't have a team full of soft smurfs. The problem with our team is that the players who are supposed to hard to play against, are far from that.

In every one of these series below Ottawa fans were crying for the refs to call more penalties against the other teams, but they didn't. They called the game or managed it the way they always do & let a lot of stuff go in the playoffs the way they also do. Gooning it up has worked for Ottawa when certain coaches have used that strategy as BM did the yr they went to the finals & PM used it against Montreal & the NYR & it has worked against Ottawa when coaches refused to respond to it.

1. EK gets punched in the face by Boyle, PM has to bring in Calkner to change the momentum & he does.
2. Tanner Glass is having his way with the Sens, GB has to bring in Neil to deter his effectiveness, he does & the series changes momentum.
3. Pronger elbows McCammond knocks him out of the series, no response from Ottawa & the series is over.
4. Domi, Tucker & Roberts man handle the Sens, JM refuses to respond & is taken to school by PQ not once, but four separate yrs.
5. PM deliberately plays a physical brand of hockey against Montreal & schools Therien & Ottawa wins the series.

Not sure what you are trying to prove here. I don't see a strong correlation to any of the above actions and the outcome of the series.
1. Not sure it changed the momentum as we still lost the series.
2. It changed the momentum for one game. Neil played in the second game and was useless. Don't think this specific thing won us the series.
3. Doesn't matter if Pronger elbows him or not. We would have lost that series. ANA was just the superior team.
4. The OTT team was manhandled. But don't think having some more goons would have made a difference.
5. Not sure PM played the physical game deliberately. Sure we won the fights, but the way I remember we got great goaltending and JGP was running wild. You know, the guy you are trying to trade in your every post.

Oh and you still haven't backed up your ridiculous claim that we played better defensively with Falk and Harpur in the lineup.
 

coladin

Registered User
Sep 18, 2009
11,804
4,496
Watched the condensed game for this one.

Could have been the fever but it looked like everyone was skating in cement.

Looked like trash.

The 2nd and 3rd periods , Ottawa was actually really good. Couldn't bury the Grade A chances. I liked their game... two bad, embarrassing gaffes cost the game.
 
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aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
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Yes, if we had McGratton answer the bell there we would have turned the tide of the series!

Had nothing to do with 2 hall of fame defenders, hall of fame winger, 2 superstar rookies, and the best shutdown line in the modern era...

That's absurd

Lalmie not being able to stop a beach ball never helped. He was the reason they lost in 04'. Nieuwendyk scored 2 goals a midget B goalie wouldn't let in game 7.

Boyle getting wiped by Neil and Carkner was great. It never resulted in much other than a moral victory in game 2 that led to our OT win (followed by another loss) and us losing the series

NY won their games at home, not surprising in the playoffs. Neil gets brought in and we win the next 2. Was great when he jumped him, Glass was running around. Probably the best example you have.

The year BM went to the finals we had the Pizza line carrying us, and then guys like Fisher/Schaeffer/Comrie plaing secondary pieces. We weren't using hard tactics, we were outskilling the teams and then run into probably the best team of the past 2 decades.
The yr they went to the finals Ottawa had a good team, they also had McGratton & Neil for the entire yr & Ottawa never got pushed around during the regular season with them in the lineup. In fact, the game Grats beat the crap out of Domi IMO turned the tide for this team that yr & they played with a lot more confidence after that. Alfie & EK were both great players but never won Ottawa a cup with all their skill. Ottawa has had numerous skilled teams that never resulted in winning a cup, we just never seem to get the formula right. There are always excuses & goaltending has definitely been an Achilles heel for this team over the yrs as well. Just when they are on the verge of winning the goaltending has let them down several times over the yrs.

I don't think there is any one formula that works but teams that are tougher either mentally or physically do seem to handle the physicality better, especially in the playoffs. We've seen teams get man handled in the playoffs & lose because of it when the intensity goes up a notch every round. I just don't think a team can win in today's NHL with just skilled players, I think you need a certain level of toughness to instill confidence at times, a better balance of both. We see it all the time where one guy makes a mockery of the team until someone decides to step up. Ann did it to Ottawa, Boston did it to Van, Wash did it to everyone last yr. This team has had plenty of excuses over the yrs for not winning it all, it would be nice if they weren't push overs & dictated the play against other teams for a change. It would be nice to be proud of the effort these guys put out for a change, BT seems to be changing that & is forcing Ottawa to be a tougher team. We've tried the soft fast skilled route & it hasn't worked for Ottawa in the past, should we just keep trying that same route until it works, if it ever will? I don't think they have the personnel for that either.
 

IlTerrifico

Registered User
Oct 24, 2016
615
432
Come on now. The team did not play better defensively when Falk and Harpur were in there. That's disingenuous and ridiculous. We were ****ty with them, and we're ****ty without.

You bring up that we need bigger guys because:

- smaller guys get knocked off the puck easier - NOT TRUE - it all depends on your puck protection skills and has very little to do with your size, although being bigger gives you a small advantage. Look at Alfie, he was not big by any means and was one of the better puck protectors in the league. We don't need bigger guys, we need guys who can move the puck and protect it.
- they can't clear out the net - NOT TRUE - especially with the new NHL you can't do what you did in the 80's and 90's and just cross-check, punch, and rough up without getting a penalty. What you do need to do is box out and tie up sticks. Again this is a fallacy you are trying to push.

This sort of foolish analysis seems like it comes straight out of a Napoleon Complex. There are a few defensemen who are smaller in stature in the league who have enough grit and determination to get the job done in the defensive zone. A few. I give you Orlov who won the Cup at 5 foot 11....but 212 pounds. And maybe Chris Letang at only 6 feet and 201. Ellis for Nashville is good mostly offensively on a scoring team, is a career +9.

Other than those few, pretty much every defenseman on recent Cup finalists Vegas, Washington, Pittsburgh and Nashville is well over 6 feet and almost all over 200 pounds. There is a reason why low talent Brooks Orpik has several Cup rings. Go to a Sens game against top teams and watch the front of the opponent's net. Tkachuk gets blasted over and over, and guys like Pyatt get rag-dolled. Others just stay away.

Then look at the Sens - tiny Lajoie -16, Ceci who plays like he is 5 foot 10, 175 is -14. The same guys who shoot often breeze through and score on their own rebounds. Harpur and Falk combined are -2 in 30 games.

Smaller guys can play defense in the league and have good regular seasons, and a Karlsson talent can do well in the playoffs. But big defensemen with reasonable talent and high grit win titles and make up 90 percent of the rosters of contenders. History proves it.
 

Sens of Anarchy

Registered User
Jul 9, 2013
65,224
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Ceci has 6'2 209; Very good size; Good wheels; No Brain; Hasn't met a board battle he couldn't lose; Hasn't met a puck he couldn't bobble; Giveaway machine; Working on a record for most goalie crests hit / 60. We see forwards like Point and Kucherov win board battles with their superior hands; El Thugo who can't skate with them , handles the puck like a grenade is what they want to play against. Lajoie does well in tight spaces and can move the puck out of them; Wolanan can do and learn the same... Chabot has improved a lot in that area in a year. Sure you give up something but you have to play the players you have that give you the best chance to win. Given where the team is with shots and shot attempts against, I would not rule out that being quicker, and better with the puck may give an advantage over being bigger, slower, and less skilled; which our bigger guys are.
 
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God Says No

Registered User
Mar 16, 2012
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This sort of foolish analysis seems like it comes straight out of a Napoleon Complex. There are a few defensemen who are smaller in stature in the league who have enough grit and determination to get the job done in the defensive zone. A few. I give you Orlov who won the Cup at 5 foot 11....but 212 pounds. And maybe Chris Letang at only 6 feet and 201. Ellis for Nashville is good mostly offensively on a scoring team, is a career +9.

Other than those few, pretty much every defenseman on recent Cup finalists Vegas, Washington, Pittsburgh and Nashville is well over 6 feet and almost all over 200 pounds. There is a reason why low talent Brooks Orpik has several Cup rings. Go to a Sens game against top teams and watch the front of the opponent's net. Tkachuk gets blasted over and over, and guys like Pyatt get rag-dolled. Others just stay away.

Then look at the Sens - tiny Lajoie -16, Ceci who plays like he is 5 foot 10, 175 is -14. The same guys who shoot often breeze through and score on their own rebounds. Harpur and Falk combined are -2 in 30 games.

Smaller guys can play defense in the league and have good regular seasons, and a Karlsson talent can do well in the playoffs. But big defensemen with reasonable talent and high grit win titles and make up 90 percent of the rosters of contenders. History proves it.

Haha, way to extrapolate from my post that I want all small D. That's not what I said. I said the D should be able to move the puck, protect the puck, and tie up sticks. I never mentioned they should be below 6'. I think the perfect D is around 6'1'' that is hihgly mobile, can transport the puck, and is able to box out players from the crease (now if you get those same attributes and the guy is 6'7" that's the jackpot, but they are hard to find). But let's play your game. Let's take WSH D from last year. The heights were: Carlson 6'3'', Orpik 6'3'', Djoos 6'0'', Orlov 5'11', Kempny 6'0'' and Niskanen 6'1''. So not some set of huge sky scrapers which did nothing but mush faces, broke bones and ate the souls of their opponents. But nice try. BTW, the very same Orpik you mentioned by name was 4/5 th in ice time most of the time in the finals. So he didn't play such a large role as you make it out to be. Carlson was the key, alongside Orlov. What's the commonality there? Was it size? Nope. Strength? Nope. Face punching ability? Definite nope. But puck transport and mobility. The new NHL.
 
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