Overrated Prospect Pool

[DrEasy]

That tag team hit by Szwarz and Sabourin on Fantenberg was right out of Slap Shot. Sabourin reminds me of one of those Hanson brothers... have to find two more and they'll pack the place.

You know... maybe this front office needs to fully embrace its role as a villain, and sends a bunch of goons on the ice each game night to create a gong show (not asking them to injure anybody, of course, just WWE style) and lose 10-0. I would watch that.

 

[Cosmix]

He skates, he hits, he fights. Just your typical 4th line player. No one left does that. And do we want Brady sticking up for players? It may be just him some nights when guys are running around. I mean, it is a 7 minute to 10 minute job, no PK, no PP, and a guy like Parker Kelly who I am high on, is just not ready as many others for NHL action.

Exactly. No need for Brady to break bones in his hands when we can have someone else take care of the nasty business.
I have been quite fond of some the nasty players I have seen play in this league: Ferguson, Probert, Mann, Kite, Clackson are some I recall.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Exactly. No need for Brady to break bones in his hands when we can have someone else take care of the nasty business.
I have been quite fond of some the nasty players I have seen play in this league: Ferguson, Probert, Mann, Kite, Clackson are some I recall.

Playing the game he does, Brasy Tkachuk is inevitably going to have to drop the gloves for the stuff he does on the ice. Unless he's facing some monster, he should answer the bell when he can. Itll add to the fear he can put into guys.

Him being a young leader on the team, everyone else should follow his lead and fight their own battles and not worry about someone being their personal body guard. Accountability.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Playing the game he does, Brasy Tkachuk is inevitably going to have to drop the gloves for the stuff he does on the ice. Unless he's facing some monster, he should answer the bell when he can. Itll add to the fear he can put into guys.

Him being a young leader on the team, everyone else should follow his lead and fight their own battles and not worry about someone being their personal body guard. Accountability.

Yes and no. Brady has no problems fighting, but it’s always best when it’s on your own terms.

When you’re personally engaged in a prolonged battle and it ignites, then you have to be ready.

When someone knocks you into next week, or cheap shots you in a scrum, then the closest player or the player who sees it happen gets in there.

It’s not about making other people fight your battles, it’s about knowing that while you’re groggy from a hit and trying to get up, or when you’re held up by someone and get a shot in the back of the head was from someone else, that your team mates have your back, and no good deed goes unpunished.

Then of course there are the less aggressive players, or smaller players, like EK, and you just know that your team mates aren’t going to let those guys get a rough ride from the opposition, hell, that little guy scores goals and makes everyone laugh on the plane. Not everyone fights, you just have to do your part as a member of the team, and not be a coward when the line brawl starts.

Team dynamics.

 

[Micklebot]

Yes and no. Brady has no problems fighting, but it’s always best when it’s on your own terms.

When you’re personally engaged in a prolonged battle and it ignites, then you have to be ready.

When someone knocks you into next week, or cheap shots you in a scrum, then the closest player or the player who sees it happen gets in there.

It’s not about making other people fight your battles, it’s about knowing that while you’re groggy from a hit and trying to get up, or when you’re held up by someone and get a shot in the back of the head was from someone else, that your team mates have your back, and no good deed goes unpunished.

Then of course there are the less aggressive players, or smaller players, like EK, and you just know that your team mates aren’t going to let those guys get a rough ride from the opposition, hell, that little guy scores goals and makes everyone laugh on the plane. Not everyone fights, you just have to do your part as a member of the team, and not be a coward when the line brawl starts.

Team dynamics.

Seems @FolignoQuantumLeap was talking about when Tkachuk is the one throwing the questionable hits or hits that enrage the other team resulting in him getting challenged. I don't think anyone takes issue with players standing up for teammates who get checked into next week.

Total hypothetical, but if Abramov starts slashing guys and checking them from behind, he should be ready to defend himself, and shouldn't expect his teammates to be stepping in when he inevitably gets challenged. If you're going to play that style of game you have to be able and willing to deal with the consequences. On the flip side, if somebody on the other team is playing dirty, I don't think it needs to be the target of the dirty play that responds, anyone on the team will do.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Seems @FolignoQuantumLeap was talking about when Tkachuk is the one throwing the questionable hits or hits that enrage the other team resulting in him getting challenged. I don't think anyone takes issue with players standing up for teammates who get checked into next week.

Total hypothetical, but if Abramov starts slashing guys and checking them from behind, he should be ready to defend himself, and shouldn't expect his teammates to be stepping in when he inevitably gets challenged. If you're going to play that style of game you have to be able and willing to deal with the consequences. On the flip side, if somebody on the other team is playing dirty, I don't think it needs to be the target of the dirty play that responds, anyone on the team will do.

I know what he was saying

I replied that BT already stands up for himself, so no worries there, and that while players should be prepared to defend themselves to a certain extent depending on play style, not every player is expected to fight, and defend themselves in that manner.

In a close knit group some players take on the role of defending other players when they see other teams taking advantage. We have a few of those guys, and in my opinion we need those guys as well.

The aggressive side of the game isn’t just left for each player to defend themselves, like in real life, not everyone is built that way.

Tougher players have been making space for less aggressive players forever, and it’s still needed in today’s game in my opinion, especially come playoff time. To further the discussion, I think guys sticking up for each other without hesitation is a sign of tight knit group. As at a watching I like seeing the boys have each other’s back.

 

[Cosmix]

Seems @FolignoQuantumLeap was talking about when Tkachuk is the one throwing the questionable hits or hits that enrage the other team resulting in him getting challenged. I don't think anyone takes issue with players standing up for teammates who get checked into next week.

Total hypothetical, but if Abramov starts slashing guys and checking them from behind, he should be ready to defend himself, and shouldn't expect his teammates to be stepping in when he inevitably gets challenged. If you're going to play that style of game you have to be able and willing to deal with the consequences. On the flip side, if somebody on the other team is playing dirty, I don't think it needs to be the target of the dirty play that responds, anyone on the team will do.

Not just anyone on the team will do. We don’t need a pacifist giving a talk-to; rather we need a policeman who can deliver a message and be a deterrent. Ferguson could and would do it in MONTREAL and he could score too. Niall performed the role very well and he could play physical too but lacked offensive skills. We need a policeman on this team, preferably one with another useful skill.

 

[aragorn]

I think potentially Ottawa could have three big guys who at some future point could make this team, although two of them are border line players who could drop them when required. Kastelic, Paul & Tkachuk can all handle themselves & are big enough to handle most players, while Kelly can handle himself with smaller players.

Sabourin seems to be the flavour of the preseason, but can he actually play in the NHL & would anyone consider him to be in their future plans? Maybe for a yr it may work to protect the young guys, but I don't see it past one yr really.

 

[Sensung]

Not a great preseason for the overhyped prospect group.

 

[coladin]

Not a great preseason for the overhyped prospect group.

They are still prospects.

 

[Korpse]

They are still prospects.

People forget this way too often. We are all guilty of it, we want the players to explode out of the gate. We forget that Mark Stone didn't take off until a couple of months into his rookie season. That Erik Karlsson was sent down after making the opening night roster. There's an adjustment period that players go through when making the jump to the next level. Give it a couple of months and the same people will be talking about how good some of these players are going to be.

 

[Ouroboros]

I think potentially Ottawa could have three big guys who at some future point could make this team, although two of them are border line players who could drop them when required. Kastelic, Paul & Tkachuk can all handle themselves & are big enough to handle most players, while Kelly can handle himself with smaller players.

Sabourin seems to be the flavour of the preseason, but can he actually play in the NHL & would anyone consider him to be in their future plans? Maybe for a yr it may work to protect the young guys, but I don't see it past one yr really.

If Nick Paul were willing and able to bang bodies, fight and be a nasty son of a bitch then the team wouldn't have signed Sabourin. Clearly they wanted somebody to fill this role, but it's just not in Paul's makeup to be that guy. He has 3 fights in 200+ AHL games, none at the NHL level and he had 2 fights in a ~200 game OHL career. He's been criticized on a regular basis for not playing physical.

Here's Mark Kastelic's first pro fight from Saturday afternoon. He got dusted.



You can't just say that a guy can handle himself because he's 6'3" and 210 pounds. It's a skill, and these guys don't have it.

 

[Xspyrit]

People forget this way too often. We are all guilty of it, we want the players to explode out of the gate. We forget that Mark Stone didn't take off until a couple of months into his rookie season. That Erik Karlsson was sent down after making the opening night roster. There's an adjustment period that players go through when making the jump to the next level. Give it a couple of months and the same people will be talking about how good some of these players are going to be.

It's been the same story for decades and it's a pretty natural thing. Do people really expect kids to dominate against pro seasoned vets?

Colin White took some time too and still not a polished product. Chabot too and he still has some progress to make. Tkachuk took less time but again, still far from a finished product. It's possible that the prospects don't develop as good as expected but we'll need patience to discover that. It's also possible that some guy(s) people didn't expect breakout in a major way and becomes better than the guys we expected to be the best ones (Mark Stone and Mike Hoffman are good examples). Mike Hoffman, look how long it took him, same for Dzingel.

The McDavids and Crosbys are the exception, not the norm.

Look at Phil Kessel or Blake Wheeler for example, Kessel broke out in his 3rd NHL season, Wheeler in his 4th and they were 5th OA picks.

It's funny that I have read so many times people wanting a "rebuild" but 1 year in, patience is already wearing thin for some

 

[Sens]

Aside from Brown I have a real hard time projecting any other Sens prospect as a top six forward

 

[Sting]

Aside from Brown I have a real hard time projecting any other Sens prospect as a top six forward

And that's assuming Brown actually pans out. I think most of us worry that like usual, this team is significantly overrating its own prospects. I don't think they realize how difficult it is to generate a dangerous/high-end top 6. Given we have one top 6 forward (Tkachuk), we need probably 3 years of drafting high on top of getting lucky on a few occasions.

 

[Xspyrit]

And that's assuming Brown actually pans out. I think most of us worry that like usual, this team is significantly overrating its own prospects. I don't think they realize how difficult it is to generate a dangerous/high-end top 6. Given we have one top 6 forward (Tkachuk), we need probably 3 years of drafting high on top of getting lucky on a few occasions.

Yet they did it several times in the last few years

Mark Stone
Mike Hoffman
Mika Zibanejad
Brady Tkachuk
17th OA pick > Rundblad > Turris > Matt Duchene
Jakob Silfverberg (to a lesser extent) > Bobby Ryan
Ryan Dzingel (to a lesser extent)
Colin White?

I don't think it's crazy expectations that 1 or 2 out of Brown, Batherson, Norris, Duclair, Balcers, Formenton, Abramov, Davidsson, Crookshank, Gruden, Pinto and Chlapik emerge as a top-6 forward. I think it'd be way more crazier to think that none of them will.

Anyway, I addressed this in another thread

Prospect Info: - 2019-2020 Senators Prospects Watch

 

[Sens]

None of the forwards could stick within a week of the season beginning

Talk about overrated

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

We haven't had a forward reach 70 points since Jason Spezza, and this during an era where offence is high and multiple players through out the league are reaching 90 points and more.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Belated Prospect Pool

 

[Micklebot]

We haven't had a forward reach 70 points since Jason Spezza, and this during an era where offence is high and multiple players through out the league are reaching 90 points and more.

Lots of our prospects have hit 70 pts, just not for us...

Hoffman Stone and Zibanejad all hit 70 last year. All drafted by us in 09, 10, and 11 respectively.

Both Duchene and Stone would have hit 70 with us last year, but we traded them mid season.

The issue isn't that we aren't acquiring quality players, it's that we are letting them slip away before we can take advantage or rather we aren't surrounding them with the pieces needed to take advantage.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Aside from Brown I have a real hard time projecting any other Sens prospect as a top six forward

Would tend to agree, right now I see Tkachuk as a fairly good bet to top out as a first line winger, Chabot is almost at that #1 dman position today. I project Brann as a number 3 dman and Brown and Bath potentially as 2nd liners and then basically a pool of hopeful 3rd/4th line talent and bottom pair dmen which you hope 1 or two exceed expectations and rise. Goalies are too tough to forecast in my eyes so won't really dive into that area.

Ideally over the next 2 or 3 years we can acquire 3 more bonified top line players (Center being the #1 need imo) and 1 more 1/2 dman through the draft and mix them all in prior to big contract time. Unfortunately UFA is clearly not an option to "finish" off the roster here in Ottawa.

 

[GrantLemons]

Lots of our prospects have hit 70 pts, just not for us...

Hoffman Stone and Zibanejad all hit 70 last year. All drafted by us in 09, 10, and 11 respectively.

Both Duchene and Stone would have hit 70 with us last year, but we traded them mid season.

The issue isn't that we aren't acquiring quality players, it's that we are letting them slip away before we can take advantage or rather we aren't surrounding them with the pieces needed to take advantage.

The "Ex-Senators" squad you could make with the talent we pissed away would be unreal. That team would have been the ultimate culmination of Bryan Murray's efforts. Such a shame.

We traded stars because we're too cheap to pay them, and when we had them we were too cheap to properly supplement them with pieces that would have put us over the top.

Around and around we go.

 

[Micklebot]

The "Ex-Senators" squad you could make with the talent we pissed away would be unreal. That team would have been the ultimate culmination of Bryan Murray's efforts. Such a shame.

We traded stars because we're too cheap to pay them, and when we had them we were too cheap to properly supplement them with pieces that would have put us over the top.

Around and around we go.

You can put together a pretty competitive looking roster using our draft picks since 2008.

Tkachuk-Zibanejad-Stone
Hoffman-White-Silfverberg
Dzingel-Pageau-Chlapik
Formenton-Brown-Batherson

Chabot-Karlsson
Wolanin-Ceci
Lajoie-Jaros
Boro

Lehner
Hogberg/Daccord

That's a 67 mil team until Chabot's extension kicks in, though to be fair, we can't really have Lehner and White since one was traded for the pick the other was chosen with I think. Remove Lehner and save 5 mil,

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Hoffman - Zibenejad - Stone
Tkachuk - White - Dzingel
Ryan - Turris - Batherson
Formenton/Chlapik - L. Brown - Pageau
Bowers

Chabot - Karlsson
Wolanin - Byram
Lajoie - Jaros

 

[swiftwin]

Hoffman - Zibenejad - Stone
Tkachuk - White - Dzingel
Ryan - Turris - Batherson
Formenton/Chlapik - L. Brown - Pageau
Bowers

Chabot - Karlsson
Wolanin - Byram
Lajoie - Jaros

And how exactly would we be drafting Byram with this lineup?