Because the other great players of his generation set the standard. It’s 3 cups. Look at football nobody would argue that Arron Rogers isn’t more talented than Tom Brady but Brady is the goat, because he has 6 rings. If Crosby and Malkin get to 4 it’s even worse for OVI. If ovi gets to two then you have an argument.
Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?
- Thread starter DangleBojangle
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Because the other great players of his generation set the standard. It’s 3 cups. Look at football nobody would argue that Arron Rogers isn’t more talented than Tom Brady but Brady is the goat, because he has 6 rings. If Crosby and Malkin get to 4 it’s even worse for OVI. If ovi gets to two then you have an argument.
Nadal On Clay
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Saying that OV isnt a top 10 player of all time isn’t necessarily hating him though.We get it, you hate Ovechkin....so much so that your willing to look silly with all your accusations without even considering the basic context...
who won the Hart in 2013? Ovechkin, no amount of whining from you changes that. Can’t be the best if you aren’t playing.
Gretzky once said, you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take....and he lead the league in shots MANY times, I guess he’s inferior for it as well?
“Never made it past the 2nd round with many choke jobs.”I’ve already went over this with you yet your blind hatred for the man makes you repeat such nonesense, but yes continue being deliberately obtuse to his cup and smythe he just recently won. I’m sure that still hurts your spirit.
Maybe his GPG has something to do with him paying MORE games??? *shocked.* how many times did those players lead the league in goals compared to Ovechkin? Again, obtuse as hell.
I’ll let Crosby know that your doing such a fine job protecting his honor, maybe one day he will let you sniff his jock strap.
Dominance
99-66-4-9-87/97
Crosby is clearly the better hockey player...
...but why does that (a) mean this thread should be locked, and (b) mean that Ovechkin can’t be a top-10 player?
I have Crosby at 5 all-time. I can see arguments for Ovechkin from 7-10, or beyond that. I personally think his case has several glaring holes in it, and it’s how you evaluate them that decides where he falls.
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Crosby
Jagr
Then it opens up.
...but why does that (a) mean this thread should be locked, and (b) mean that Ovechkin can’t be a top-10 player?
I have Crosby at 5 all-time. I can see arguments for Ovechkin from 7-10, or beyond that. I personally think his case has several glaring holes in it, and it’s how you evaluate them that decides where he falls.
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Crosby
Jagr
Then it opens up.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
So then Justin williams is better than Ovechkin and on par with Crosby and Malkin? Got it.
Chris Kunitz is one of the best players of his generation....because 4 cups.
His approach and his entire argument is the definition of salty. All he does is spout of nonesense about Ovechkin and only goes into Ovechkin threads to single him out while having the most ridiculously one sided agenda I have ever seen. He’s literally hating Ovechkin because it’s the only thing he has to look forward in his unfulfilled days.
Your right, he’s the exception though. If you can’t see that, then your just as blind as he is. I have both as top 10 players, but for different reasons. Because there is no set standard for such, much like there is no set standard for number of cups and playoff success.
If he breaks Gretzky’s record, it would be hard to not keep him out, but I feel he is on the lower end of the top 10. Whether Crosby is higher or lower than that doesn’t really matter and is subjective.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
Because Ovechkin can’t be is own player with his own achievements. Many have Crosby as the bar, the standard in which Ovechkin needs to live and play up to in order to be anywhere near as successful or have the same status in terms of “all time.” Its just Pen fans needing to put him down in order to feel superior and we have seen it constantly within the thread alone.
-he doesn’t have a lot of assists like Crosby
-he doesn’t have more than one cup like Crosby
-he hasn’t been considered “one of the best” as many times as Crosby
-he scores to many goals, not like Crosby
-isn’t a more “complete” player like Crosby
-doesn’t play defense like Crosby
Everything Ovechkin has achieved gets analyzed and dissected through a Crosby filter. Ovechkin isn’t even allowed to be anywhere near Crosby, he isn’t allowed to be a top 10 player because Crosby. It’s like posters are threatened or something....like Ovechkin being up there so somehow makes Crosby less than superior for their liking. Talk about insecure fans.
Dominance
99-66-4-9-87/97
I mean, I am one of those insecure fans. If there was a poll between Ovechkin and Bossy, for example, I’d be initially inclined to try to argue Bossy’s case, even though it realistically pales in comparison.
In my more rational moments, I think Ovi has a real case to line up against everyone after Jagr, and it’s obviously still building.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
With Bossy, it’s still an argument...although I don’t believe there is an argument strong enough to say Bossy is the better of the two, but that’s just me. Crosby and Ovechkin is apples and oranges, two totally different types and styles of players. The constant need to compare Ovechkin to Crosby only shows how people can’t let go of the idea that Ovechkin has finally earned his legacy at this point.
Very true. In the end we can accurately put him somewhere when it’s all said and done. I do believe in terms of what he has achieved overall in his career, he’s already got a solid argument....but it would be a better one when his career is done.
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So then Justin williams is better than Ovechkin and on par with Crosby and Malkin? Got it.
Chris Kunitz is one of the best players of his generation....because 4 cups.
His approach and his entire argument is the definition of salty. All he does is spout of nonesense about Ovechkin and only goes into Ovechkin threads to single him out while having the most ridiculously one sided agenda I have ever seen. He’s literally hating Ovechkin because it’s the only thing he has to look forward in his unfulfilled days.
Your right, he’s the exception though. If you can’t see that, then your just as blind as he is. I have both as top 10 players, but for different reasons. Because there is no set standard for such, much like there is no set standard for number of cups and playoff success.
If he breaks Gretzky’s record, it would be hard to not keep him out, but I feel he is on the lower end of the top 10. Whether Crosby is higher or lower than that doesn’t really matter and is subjective.
I mean, all he did was state facts. Not sure what’s the problem here. Also, why would someone that cheers for a team that has had the best player of the last 15 years be salty about an inferior player? It doesn’t make any sense.
Not having Ovechkin in the top 10 was actually a popular opinion if you look at the most recent top 100 ranking made on the history board. It’s not super accurate, but it still gives you a good view of where the Great 8 is ranked by people who have been watching hockey for a long time.
Also, I think you should try to avoid threads where Sidney Crosby is mentioned. You seem to be a bit too reactive and impulsive for some reason when someone mentions something that’s arguable about Sid. Just an observation.
KoozNetsOff 92
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That project was an absolute joke lol. Those guys overrate players they weren't alive to see and who there is no video of. I remember following it, some guy ranked Gretzky outside of the top 5 and was actually trying to justify it, another had Jagr ranked in the 40s, Richard ahead of Lemieux lol. Bunch more examples too. People on the main board might not have been watching hockey as long as those on the HoH but I've never seen anyone here say Gretzky isn't top 5 or Jagr is outside the top 30. Total joke project filled with heavy bias towards the O6 and pre O6.
While there is a lot that I disagree with in the top 100 project, it's a little disingenuous to cite extreme examples from the project from 1 (perhaps 2 at most) for the 3 player examples above and diminish a pretty good effort and process.
If an extreme POV is to be pointed out in that project I fully expect to see many MJ "citings" in to remain true to the faith here.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
There was nothing “factual” about anything he stated. I know you Crosby lovers have to stick to together and defend each other, but we both know your not that obtuse.
[mod] Are you really going to Be that guy? He does that constantly, comes in....spouts off rubbish....then retreats. If you can’t see how his post is just one big “I hate Alex Ovechkin,” then I can’t help you, your no better than him at that point.
Well, there is context isn’t there? For example, if he beats Gretzky’s record, that would change a lot of minds....wouldn’t you say? Of course we don’t have any accurate status to put on him at this moment.
And yet your saying this in an Ovechkin thread, you use a word like “impulsive” which is both ironic and hilarious. Maybe understand how you come off first before trying to preach. You may go now....this is an Ovechkin thread, I know you love and NEED to discuss Crosby all the time but I’m sure you can go elsewhere for that.
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KoozNetsOff 92
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There were numerous examples in that project. But considering that only 32 people took part in the project, even 3 people is 10%. If you want to use MJ or whoever as an extreme example here that's what 1/2000 posters? To get to 10% you'd need to find 200 and I definitely have seen anywhere close to that.
OrrNumber4
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One imperfect way of solving this question:
Take the modern NHL roster, assume the composition of any top-players list must match, and you should have 6 forwards in your all-time top-10. Simple math with 100 years of hockey...is Ovechkin the best forward in any 17-year-span? Is he one of the top two forwards in any 32-year-span (etc.)?
So it isn't clear-cut. In my opinion, when I analyze his generation, Crosby is his competitor. When looking at the hardware, the big difference comes down to Ovechkin's 6 more Rocket Richards over Crosby's extra Conn Smythe, extra Art Ross, and slightly better overall Hart record (Ovechkin has the extra win, but Crosby finished 2nd four times (Ovechkin twice) and has a third-place showing IIRC). However, I have to take Crosby over him...better defensively, higher-scoring rate, and a much stronger playoff resume.
I put a big emphasis on the playoffs. Just as a thought experiment, take their playoff numbers and map them on to their RS results, adjusting for the regular season games actually played:
In 1,142 RS games, Playoff! Ovechkin has 580 goals, 544 assists, 1124 points, and a scoring rate of 0.98PPG
In 973 RS games, Playoff! Crosby has 392 goals, 712 assists, 1104 points, and a scoring rate of 1.13PPG. 20 fewer points in nearly 200 fewer games.
Both of these the stat lines of first-ballot HOFers. But Ovechkin's doesn't even come close to being a top-10 player all-time. That's the stat line of a Kovalchuk, a Stamkos, an Iginla. A player who hopefully wins an Art Ross and a Hart, and maybe 3-4 Richards.
Looking at it yet another way, which makes me question if either player should be on the list: Jaromir Jagr had five Art Ross trophies. Guy Lafleur had three. Phil Esposito had four (five?). Stan Mikita had four. Bobby Hull had three. Crosby only has two and Ovechkin only one! It is fairly conceivable that by the time Crosby retires, he'll have played in the league with a 3- or 4-time Art Ross winner in Connor McDavid.
Take the modern NHL roster, assume the composition of any top-players list must match, and you should have 6 forwards in your all-time top-10. Simple math with 100 years of hockey...is Ovechkin the best forward in any 17-year-span? Is he one of the top two forwards in any 32-year-span (etc.)?
So it isn't clear-cut. In my opinion, when I analyze his generation, Crosby is his competitor. When looking at the hardware, the big difference comes down to Ovechkin's 6 more Rocket Richards over Crosby's extra Conn Smythe, extra Art Ross, and slightly better overall Hart record (Ovechkin has the extra win, but Crosby finished 2nd four times (Ovechkin twice) and has a third-place showing IIRC). However, I have to take Crosby over him...better defensively, higher-scoring rate, and a much stronger playoff resume.
I put a big emphasis on the playoffs. Just as a thought experiment, take their playoff numbers and map them on to their RS results, adjusting for the regular season games actually played:
In 1,142 RS games, Playoff! Ovechkin has 580 goals, 544 assists, 1124 points, and a scoring rate of 0.98PPG
In 973 RS games, Playoff! Crosby has 392 goals, 712 assists, 1104 points, and a scoring rate of 1.13PPG. 20 fewer points in nearly 200 fewer games.
Both of these the stat lines of first-ballot HOFers. But Ovechkin's doesn't even come close to being a top-10 player all-time. That's the stat line of a Kovalchuk, a Stamkos, an Iginla. A player who hopefully wins an Art Ross and a Hart, and maybe 3-4 Richards.
Looking at it yet another way, which makes me question if either player should be on the list: Jaromir Jagr had five Art Ross trophies. Guy Lafleur had three. Phil Esposito had four (five?). Stan Mikita had four. Bobby Hull had three. Crosby only has two and Ovechkin only one! It is fairly conceivable that by the time Crosby retires, he'll have played in the league with a 3- or 4-time Art Ross winner in Connor McDavid.
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Yeah I personally have them both top 10. I’d like to see a more accurate list that gives more respect to the modern players for sure. Frank Nighbor wasn’t better than Alexander Ovechkin
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Nadal On Clay
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I really hope that he breaks Gretzky’s record tbh. It’s great for our sport and the fact that I might be alive to witness history is pretty neat. It wouldn’t really matter in terms of all time rankings to me because I don’t only judge players off their statistics. I don’t need OV to surpass Gretzky’s goal record to admit that he is the best goalscorer of all time. The only thing that would make OV jumps a few spots in my personal rankings is if he has a couple more strong post seasons along with good longevity.
Btw I love how hyperbolic you are. Keep it up
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GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
Why does he need a couple more good post seasons for your liking? He sits 3rd in playoff points and PPG behind only Crosby and Malkin. He’s been a consistent threat in the playoffs.I really hope that he breaks Gretzky’s record tbh. It’s great for our sport and the fact that I might be alive to witness history is pretty neat. It wouldn’t really matter in terms of all time rankings to me because I don’t only judge players off their statistics. I don’t need OV to surpass Gretzky’s goal record to admit that he is the best goalscorer of all time. The only thing that would make OV jumps a few spots in my personal rankings is if he has a couple more strong post seasons along with good longevity.
Btw I love how hyperbolic you are. Keep it up
Don’t use words that you clearly don’t know the meaning of. Just because you refuse to acknowledge the other posters extreme dislike and vendetta against Ovechkin along with his nice salty post piled on with lies, doesn’t mean it isn’t there right in front of your face.
I know you don’t realize this, but scoring becomes less the further you go in the playoffs. The fact that crosby and
Malkin have higher ppg averages in the playoffs than ovi is quite impressive considering they been to the conference finals 4 times and the conference finals 5 times I believe. I’m too lazy to look it up, but how many times has ovi made it out of the 2nd round? I know it’s way less then 5.
If ovi breaks the record he’s top ten for sure. I think ovi is the rare player that has gotten absolutely everything out of his talent. He scores goals like nobody in his era, and he shoots more than anyone ever has in the game. This isn’t a knock btw, but there’s no doubt there isn’t many more goals he could’ve scored. The thing is if some of the past greats had this mentality they would’ve scored 100 plus without question. They were however much more complete players
Go look at the top 20 players in the top 100 from the history board.
It doesn't matter if you like or agree with the list per se - just look at the top 20. How many of those players have a better overall playoff resume than Ovi? If your answer isnt at least over 15 'you're probably being very biased. It might even be closer to 20 than 15.
2 years ago Ovis playoffs were a weakness. Never past 2nd round was a bad thing. I know - team sport etc. Thats true - but a player of his caliber you also want to see actual results. The cup and smythe were tremendous. His playoffs are no longer a weakness in his resume. However - they still mostly fail to compare to the other candidates for top 10 all time.
He does have a super strong regular season resume. Thats obviously is a plus vs some of those top 20 players.
But to answer your question - thats why he needs a few more good playoff runs (ideally past 2nd round). To help rise his placement all time.
TooManyHumans
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The idea that it’s Pens fans driving the ‘rivalry‘ between Ovechkin and Crosby is wrong. Most Pens fans don’t really care about Ovechkin and don’t see him as a threat to Crosby’s legacy. They are completely different players. Sid has accomplished enough on his own. It’s a few trolls who for whatever reason feel the need to bring up the other whenever one is mentioned that drives this and I personally find it tedious as hell.
There is a group of ~10 players who could be slotted into the spots of 5-15 on the GOAT list. Ovechkin is in that group, so I'd say he could easily be considered top ten
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Only in your mind is Crosby and ovechkin apples and oranges. No serious hockey mind would agree
So double down on some % (and there are others besides MJ here) instead of being consistent in extreme positions?
Ovechkin has some holes in his game when being compared to the top 10 players of all time.
Indeed even among the top 4 there isn't a consensus on the order as each of those players have their strengths and weaknesses.
The main strength and meat of Ovechkin is his goal scoring but outside of that he is a bit lacking compared to other top 10 guys in consideration.
He isn't done yet so there is still time and he is a top 20ish guy almost by consensus at this point.
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Being under a PPG in the playoffs while playing 90% of your games in the first 2 rounds isn’t gonna cut it. If he has 1 or 2 more strong post seasons, then he will pass Jagr, who’s playoff resume is lacking compared to the other all time greats.
