Ovechkin passes Selanne,Super Mario,Yzerman and Messier for career goals. 2 more for 700 goal club.

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by Ducks in a row, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. Boqvy wan Kenobi

    Boqvy wan Kenobi Jedi Master

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    I think Orr is a better comparison to Sayers(both had severe knee injuries before modern reconstruction) and Mantle to Lemieux in terms of chronic pain and injury that both kept fighting through and still put up HOF numbers.

    Awesome call on Lemieux/Mantle and Orr/Sayers

    Gayle Sayers immediately came to mind with Lemieux in terms of just being the best player by far on the field/ice every game they played in while healthy.
     
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  2. Boqvy wan Kenobi

    Boqvy wan Kenobi Jedi Master

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    Ovi is the Hank Aaron of goalscoring. Just incredibly consistent. He doesn't have any one super high goal scoring season but he just puts up 40-50 goals like clockwork and has done it for a long period of time. Granted, his 65 goal year was pretty awesome, but it wasn't like the 70-92 goal seasons Gretzky put up.

    Hank Aaron never hit 50 HR in a season in his career,(his career high was 47) but put up 35-45 HRs per season for 20 years, and that's how he got Babe Ruth.

    If you do the math, averaging 45 goals per season for 20 years beats Gretzky.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  3. RorschachWJK

    RorschachWJK Registered User

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    This is what I thought as well. Great player but a petty human being.
     
  4. txpd

    txpd Registered User

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    The year Gretzky scored 92 there were 10 players with 50. There were 3 players with at least 60. Often Ovechkin is the only player with 50. I don't think there are 10 players total during Ov's career with 1 50 goal season. in 14-15 he had 53 and only 2 other players had as many as 40
     
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  5. KoozNetsOff 92

    KoozNetsOff 92 Hala Madrid

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    Yes if you ignore the fact that Gretzky has better raw totals, adjusted totals, paces, single season totals, career totals, better stats at any cherry picked sample size, peaked higher, better playoffs, double the individual awards and cups.. Ignore all of that then of course the question can't be answered.

    Also Howe was better than Lemieux but that's a topic for another day.
     
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  6. KoozNetsOff 92

    KoozNetsOff 92 Hala Madrid

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    Cancer was in 93. The 3 year layoff you're referring to was way after. Lemieux was crying like a baby that the league was too physical so he ran away when the league wasn't bending over for him.
     
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  7. Boqvy wan Kenobi

    Boqvy wan Kenobi Jedi Master

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    1980-1995 is a weird time in hockey history where forwards became so much better than goalies, and it took a long while for the goalies to catch up. I looked at the old videos of some of my favorite players as a kid, and a lot of those goals we'd LOL at the goalies for letting in nowadays.
     
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  8. txpd

    txpd Registered User

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    The reverse of the modern era with the bufferfly goaltenders. big and all well coached.
     
  9. Boqvy wan Kenobi

    Boqvy wan Kenobi Jedi Master

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    I mean really, we have to use adjusted metrics because that 15 year period was an incredible anomaly. I'd actually argue that "modern hockey" didn't start until the 2005-06 season. There were so many variables going on from 1969-2001 with expansion, equipment, etc.
     
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  10. gtrower

    gtrower Registered User

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    Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. Lemieux’s peak was crazy good. But it seems like some people are desperate to extrapolate that peak over his entire career including the games he missed due to injury and retirement. That doesn’t mesh with me. You can’t have a handful of dominant seasons + a few really good seasons and equate that to other guys who also had a handful of dominant seasons + another 10 really good seasons.
     
  11. Boqvy wan Kenobi

    Boqvy wan Kenobi Jedi Master

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    Yeah, but Lemieux was robbed of literally 4 full seasons and parts of 4 more during his late 20s and early 30s. We don't know what he would have done in had he stayed cancer-free.

    If you look at it objectively, 99 is the best and you can't argue that. If you look into hypotheticals then the question gets murky

    I really have a hard time placing O6 data into context, just like I have a hard time with pre-integration baseball stuff.

    In baseball There are 2 leagues, there's pre integration and modern baseball.

    In Hockey there's 3. There's the O6, the expansion era(1967-2004) where numbers fluctuate wildly and the modern era where stats have stabilized again.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  12. KoozNetsOff 92

    KoozNetsOff 92 Hala Madrid

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    And Lemieux's peak was worse than Gretzky anyway so it doesn't even make sense lol
     
  13. moropanov

    moropanov Registered User

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    From what i have seen Ovys been 15 years with Caps and has 1 Stanley if he would have been replaced with Kane or Crosby or even Kopitar on same time line its reasonable to say they would have won 3 or 4 Stanley's by now with that core Ovechkin was such a cancer to team and loser for so many years until finally he once won.
     
  14. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Surrounded by Snowflakes

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    I never suggested otherwise. My point was towards the idea that he played a “majority” of his time in the DPE while also citing that he wasn’t nearly as dominant as he previously was. He relied heavily on the PP and was still struggling with health issues. There were glimpses of his greatness from time to time no doubt, but he couldn’t keep that consistent unfortunately. He was IMO the most naturally gifted and talented player I have ever seen, it’s just a shame he didn’t take care of himself.

    I think most, if not all people know Lemieux was a better player. Goal scorer? Debatable, but I also wouldn’t care if people see Lemieux the better of the two regardless. Ovechkin certainly has a case though as a pure goal scorer.
     
  15. Boqvy wan Kenobi

    Boqvy wan Kenobi Jedi Master

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    Not by much. Lemieux put up 199 points on an average team and Gretzky put up 215 on perhaps the greatest team ever assembled.

    The difference between 85 and 92 goals isn't that much either when you take into account the teams they were on.

    Gretzky had his peak seasons on an all time dynasty and you can't say the same about Lemieux.

    Teammates matter.

    Mario missed the majority of the Penguins 1991 Stanley Cup season.

    By the time the Penguins built their team, he already had started getting severely injured.

    When you start asking What if Lemieux stayed healthy? The question gets a lot more murky.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  16. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Surrounded by Snowflakes

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    So he suddenly dropped his cancer rep and learned how to not be a loser? Do you even proof read what your saying?

    Amazing how even after a cup and smythe, critics gonna critique him no matter what.
     
  17. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Surrounded by Snowflakes

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    I think the difference is Gretzky maintained that level of play for the most part. Aside from his 215 season, he also scored 212 on a young and upcoming Oilers team, and 202 on a ‘85 team that wasn’t much different than the ‘89 squad with Lemieux. He had Kurri on wing with Coffey putting up a big season, Lemieux had brown and Coffey as well.

    Lemieux most likely would have matches peak Gretzky, but What made Gretzky different was how he maintained it.


    Also, don’t forget that Lemieux next biggest season was ‘93, and that was a very stacked team offensively. Lemieux had great teams around him around the early-mid 90s, it was short lived, and they weren’t the Oilers, but think of it this way, Gretzky was far and away the best player on those Oilers teams and it’s not close. You also have to remember that Gretzky suffered a very significant injury in ‘91(?) that did set him back offensively. His offensive totals took more of a hit from that than anything else.
     
  18. KoozNetsOff 92

    KoozNetsOff 92 Hala Madrid

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    Lemieux's 199pt season: 2 110+pt scorers including prime Paul Coffey who was a Norris runner up, +84pts than 2nd on his team

    Gretzky 212pt season: 0 110pt scorers, no one close to prime Coffey, +107pts than 2nd on his team

    Try again.
     
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  19. Boqvy wan Kenobi

    Boqvy wan Kenobi Jedi Master

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    Ok I thought that Coffey was still with the Oilers then. Never mind.
     
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  20. KoozNetsOff 92

    KoozNetsOff 92 Hala Madrid

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    I think you're referring to Gretzky's 215pt season. But the point is that Gretzky had already proven he could produce monster numbers (better than Lemieux) without his dynasty team.
     
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  21. moropanov

    moropanov Registered User

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    Yea he wasnt playing how leader/example should previously, but at Cup run he played decently and even if he didnt defend well (he doesnt have defensive skills/IQ for that), but atleast he showed like he tried so it inspired other players muchly or i expect so its so unique to see Ovechkin try that way. Kuznetsov was clear mvp of play offs playing wise, but Ovechkin could be argued as inspiration to have been MVP because after half assing 15 years defensively then at Stanley run he atleast pretended like trying and that was enough to get everyone play for team i suppose.
     
  22. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Moderator

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    :laugh::laugh:

    Slava is that you?
     
  23. Chimp

    Chimp Registered User

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    That physique, with that goal scoring talent and that fortune to stay so healthy has resulted in a great career. Ovechkin hasn't had any difficult injuries and that is huge when it comes to longevity.

    Ovie has kind of been the staple for a player everybody know what he'll do, but nobody can stop him anyway. Especially on the PP and I think he can thank Bäckström alot for that.

    #8 has produced so many 50 goal seasons in the era where it has been the most difficult to do so, by far.
     
  24. Klargplutte

    Klargplutte Registered User

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    We get it , you looove Crosby and hate Ovie , but can you take your trolling somewhere else please youre not even good at it.
     
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  25. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Surrounded by Snowflakes

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    You know Crosby doesn’t care and won’t ever read your bitter post right? Just remember to much salt can kill ya
     

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