Ovechkin passes Selanne,Super Mario,Yzerman and Messier for career goals. 2 more for 700 goal club.

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Mickey Mantle is probably more like it.....or.....Bobby Orr. I mean, if Orr hadn't had his knees killed....we really never talk about him

I think Orr is a better comparison to Sayers(both had severe knee injuries before modern reconstruction) and Mantle to Lemieux in terms of chronic pain and injury that both kept fighting through and still put up HOF numbers.

Awesome call on Lemieux/Mantle and Orr/Sayers

Gayle Sayers immediately came to mind with Lemieux in terms of just being the best player by far on the field/ice every game they played in while healthy.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

When Lemieux was on, there were times where it didn’t even seem real. Like he was toying with the other players. I remember one game where instead of shooting the puck hard he slid it towards the goalie at less than a pass pace and it went in because the goalie got all handcuffed. Completely intentional but i still don’t understand how he knew.

In fairness, I didn’t see the Gretzky early years, but I do know I have never seen someone dominate the game like Lemieux did. OV and Crosby are great, but it’s not the same thing.

Ovi is the Hank Aaron of goalscoring. Just incredibly consistent. He doesn't have any one super high goal scoring season but he just puts up 40-50 goals like clockwork and has done it for a long period of time. Granted, his 65 goal year was pretty awesome, but it wasn't like the 70-92 goal seasons Gretzky put up.

Hank Aaron never hit 50 HR in a season in his career,(his career high was 47) but put up 35-45 HRs per season for 20 years, and that's how he got Babe Ruth.

If you do the math, averaging 45 goals per season for 20 years beats Gretzky.

 

[RorschachWJK]

I love Mario as a player and would argue that in the distinction between best/greatest that's being tossed around here he passes Gretzky as the best player we've ever seen. But one thing he has never been capable of is saying anything positive about others. He pretty much trashed the NHL the entire time he was in it and constantly threatened to take his ball and go home. I don't imagine him congratulating someone for passing him in the record books.

This is what I thought as well. Great player but a petty human being.

 

[txpd]

Ovi is the Hank Aaron of goalscoring. Just incredibly consistent. He doesn't have any one super high goal scoring season but he just puts up 40-50 goals like clockwork and has done it for a long period of time. Granted, his 65 goal year was pretty awesome, but it wasn't like the 70-92 goal seasons Gretzky put up.

The year Gretzky scored 92 there were 10 players with 50. There were 3 players with at least 60. Often Ovechkin is the only player with 50. I don't think there are 10 players total during Ov's career with 1 50 goal season. in 14-15 he had 53 and only 2 other players had as many as 40

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

It just sucks we don't live in an alternate reality where Mario never got Hodgkins.

The fact of the matter is, that 99 vs 66 is a question that can never and will never be answered.

We can all agree they're the two best forwards ever and were different players because of their size difference, and if we have to rank them it's an incomplete.

I also wonder how good Lindros would have been without the injuries.

Yes if you ignore the fact that Gretzky has better raw totals, adjusted totals, paces, single season totals, career totals, better stats at any cherry picked sample size, peaked higher, better playoffs, double the individual awards and cups.. Ignore all of that then of course the question can't be answered.

Also Howe was better than Lemieux but that's a topic for another day.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The craziest part is his stats coming back after Cancer in the DPE at his age. Insane. I wasn’t old enough to watch much of his prime but I remember him coming back and being amazed at how good he was after years off.

Cancer was in 93. The 3 year layoff you're referring to was way after. Lemieux was crying like a baby that the league was too physical so he ran away when the league wasn't bending over for him.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

The year Gretzky scored 92 there were 10 players with 50. There were 3 players with at least 60. Often Ovechkin is the only player with 50. I don't think there are 10 players total during Ov's career with 1 50 goal season.

1980-1995 is a weird time in hockey history where forwards became so much better than goalies, and it took a long while for the goalies to catch up. I looked at the old videos of some of my favorite players as a kid, and a lot of those goals we'd LOL at the goalies for letting in nowadays.

 

[txpd]

1980-1995 is a weird time in hockey history where forwards became so much better than goalies, and it took a long while for the goalies to catch up. I looked at the old videos of some of my favorite players as a kid, and a lot of those goals we'd LOL at the goalies for letting in nowadays.

The reverse of the modern era with the bufferfly goaltenders. big and all well coached.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

The reverse of the modern era with the bufferfly goaltenders. big and all well coached.

I mean really, we have to use adjusted metrics because that 15 year period was an incredible anomaly. I'd actually argue that "modern hockey" didn't start until the 2005-06 season. There were so many variables going on from 1969-2001 with expansion, equipment, etc.

 

[gtrower]

Yes if you ignore the fact that Gretzky has better raw totals, adjusted totals, paces, single season totals, career totals, better stats at any cherry picked sample size, peaked higher, better playoffs, double the individual awards and cups.. Ignore all of that then of course the question can't be answered.

Also Howe was better than Lemieux but that's a topic for another day.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. Lemieux’s peak was crazy good. But it seems like some people are desperate to extrapolate that peak over his entire career including the games he missed due to injury and retirement. That doesn’t mesh with me. You can’t have a handful of dominant seasons + a few really good seasons and equate that to other guys who also had a handful of dominant seasons + another 10 really good seasons.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Yes if you ignore the fact that Gretzky has better raw totals, adjusted totals, paces, single season totals, career totals, better stats at any cherry picked sample size, peaked higher, better playoffs, double the individual awards and cups.. Ignore all of that then of course the question can't be answered.

Also Howe was better than Lemieux but that's a topic for another day.

Yeah, but Lemieux was robbed of literally 4 full seasons and parts of 4 more during his late 20s and early 30s. We don't know what he would have done in had he stayed cancer-free.

If you look at it objectively, 99 is the best and you can't argue that. If you look into hypotheticals then the question gets murky

I really have a hard time placing O6 data into context, just like I have a hard time with pre-integration baseball stuff.

In baseball There are 2 leagues, there's pre integration and modern baseball.

In Hockey there's 3. There's the O6, the expansion era(1967-2004) where numbers fluctuate wildly and the modern era where stats have stabilized again.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. Lemieux’s peak was crazy good. But it seems like some people are desperate to extrapolate that peak over his entire career including the games he missed due to injury and retirement. That doesn’t mesh with me. You can’t have a handful of dominant seasons + a few really good seasons and equate that to other guys who also had a handful of dominant seasons + another 10 really good seasons.

And Lemieux's peak was worse than Gretzky anyway so it doesn't even make sense lol

 

[moropanov]

No it isn't, just watch the game. The year they won the cup Ovechkin absolutely carried that team, dragging them to a division win they had zero business winning, then being the true GOAT he is guaranteed they'd come back against the Blue Jackets and backed that up. Ovechkin should have been a Hart finalist that year btw. Against the Islanders just the other night Ovi was the catalyst in them coming back by scoring a hat trick, I mean are you actually inferring that Ovechkin scores meaningless goals in situations that don't matter? He leads the league since entering it in GWG's. His goal scoring is more important to his team than any players in the league. He is the biggest reason they continue to have as much success they do as a team and you're demonstrating an amazing amount of ignorance right now.

From what i have seen Ovys been 15 years with Caps and has 1 Stanley if he would have been replaced with Kane or Crosby or even Kopitar on same time line its reasonable to say they would have won 3 or 4 Stanley's by now with that core Ovechkin was such a cancer to team and loser for so many years until finally he once won.

 

[GreatGonzo]

L

lemieux was the most dominant player I have ever seen play the game. He was on a different level when healthy. Ovechkin is great, but not lemieux

I never suggested otherwise. My point was towards the idea that he played a “majority” of his time in the DPE while also citing that he wasn’t nearly as dominant as he previously was. He relied heavily on the PP and was still struggling with health issues. There were glimpses of his greatness from time to time no doubt, but he couldn’t keep that consistent unfortunately. He was IMO the most naturally gifted and talented player I have ever seen, it’s just a shame he didn’t take care of himself.

I think most, if not all people know Lemieux was a better player. Goal scorer? Debatable, but I also wouldn’t care if people see Lemieux the better of the two regardless. Ovechkin certainly has a case though as a pure goal scorer.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

And Lemieux's peak was worse than Gretzky anyway so it doesn't even make sense lol

Not by much. Lemieux put up 199 points on an average team and Gretzky put up 215 on perhaps the greatest team ever assembled.

The difference between 85 and 92 goals isn't that much either when you take into account the teams they were on.

Gretzky had his peak seasons on an all time dynasty and you can't say the same about Lemieux.

Teammates matter.

Mario missed the majority of the Penguins 1991 Stanley Cup season.

By the time the Penguins built their team, he already had started getting severely injured.

When you start asking What if Lemieux stayed healthy? The question gets a lot more murky.

 

[GreatGonzo]

From what i have seen Ovys been 15 years with Caps and has 1 Stanley if he would have been replaced with Kane or Crosby or even Kopitar on same time line its reasonable to say they would have won 3 or 4 Stanley's by now with that core Ovechkin was such a cancer to team and loser for so many years until finally he once won.

So he suddenly dropped his cancer rep and learned how to not be a loser? Do you even proof read what your saying?

Amazing how even after a cup and smythe, critics gonna critique him no matter what.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Not by much. Lemieux put up 199 points on an average team and Gretzky put up 215 on perhaps the greatest team ever assembled.

The difference between 84 and 92 goals isn't that much either when you take into account the teams they were on.

Gretzky had his peak seasons on an all time dynasty and you can't say the same about Lemieux.

Teammates matter.

I think the difference is Gretzky maintained that level of play for the most part. Aside from his 215 season, he also scored 212 on a young and upcoming Oilers team, and 202 on a ‘85 team that wasn’t much different than the ‘89 squad with Lemieux. He had Kurri on wing with Coffey putting up a big season, Lemieux had brown and Coffey as well.

Lemieux most likely would have matches peak Gretzky, but What made Gretzky different was how he maintained it.


Also, don’t forget that Lemieux next biggest season was ‘93, and that was a very stacked team offensively. Lemieux had great teams around him around the early-mid 90s, it was short lived, and they weren’t the Oilers, but think of it this way, Gretzky was far and away the best player on those Oilers teams and it’s not close. You also have to remember that Gretzky suffered a very significant injury in ‘91(?) that did set him back offensively. His offensive totals took more of a hit from that than anything else.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Not by much. Lemieux put up 199 points on an average team and Gretzky put up 215 on perhaps the greatest team ever assembled.

The difference between 85 and 92 goals isn't that much either when you take into account the teams they were on.

Gretzky had his peak seasons on an all time dynasty and you can't say the same about Lemieux.

Teammates matter.

Lemieux's 199pt season: 2 110+pt scorers including prime Paul Coffey who was a Norris runner up, +84pts than 2nd on his team

Gretzky 212pt season: 0 110pt scorers, no one close to prime Coffey, +107pts than 2nd on his team

Try again.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Lemieux's 199pt season: 2 110+pt scorers including prime Paul Coffey who was a Norris runner up, +84pts than 2nd on his team

Gretzky 212pt season: 0 110pt scorers, no one close to prime Coffey, +107pts than 2nd on his team

Try again.

Ok I thought that Coffey was still with the Oilers then. Never mind.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Ok I thought that Coffey was still with the Oilers then. Never mind.

I think you're referring to Gretzky's 215pt season. But the point is that Gretzky had already proven he could produce monster numbers (better than Lemieux) without his dynasty team.

 

[moropanov]

So he suddenly dropped his cancer rep and learned how to not be a loser? Do you even proof read what your saying?

Amazing how even after a cup and smythe, critics gonna critique him no matter what.

Yea he wasnt playing how leader/example should previously, but at Cup run he played decently and even if he didnt defend well (he doesnt have defensive skills/IQ for that), but atleast he showed like he tried so it inspired other players muchly or i expect so its so unique to see Ovechkin try that way. Kuznetsov was clear mvp of play offs playing wise, but Ovechkin could be argued as inspiration to have been MVP because after half assing 15 years defensively then at Stanley run he atleast pretended like trying and that was enough to get everyone play for team i suppose.

 

[Sam Spade]

Yea he wasnt playing how leader/example should previously, but at Cup run he played decently and even if he didnt defend well (he doesnt have defensive skills/IQ for that), but atleast he showed like he tried so it inspired other players muchly or i expect so its so unique to see Ovechkin try that way. Kuznetsov was clear mvp of play offs playing wise, but Ovechkin could be argued as inspiration to have been MVP because after half assing 15 years defensively then at Stanley run he atleast pretended like trying and that was enough to get everyone play for team i suppose.

Slava is that you?

 

[Chimpradamus]

That physique, with that goal scoring talent and that fortune to stay so healthy has resulted in a great career. Ovechkin hasn't had any difficult injuries and that is huge when it comes to longevity.

Ovie has kind of been the staple for a player everybody know what he'll do, but nobody can stop him anyway. Especially on the PP and I think he can thank Bäckström alot for that.

#8 has produced so many 50 goal seasons in the era where it has been the most difficult to do so, by far.

 

[Klargplutte]

From what i have seen Ovys been 15 years with Caps and has 1 Stanley if he would have been replaced with Kane or Crosby or even Kopitar on same time line its reasonable to say they would have won 3 or 4 Stanley's by now with that core Ovechkin was such a cancer to team and loser for so many years until finally he once won.

We get it , you looove Crosby and hate Ovie , but can you take your trolling somewhere else please youre not even good at it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yea he wasnt playing how leader/example should previously, but at Cup run he played decently and even if he didnt defend well (he doesnt have defensive skills/IQ for that), but atleast he showed like he tried so it inspired other players muchly or i expect so its so unique to see Ovechkin try that way. Kuznetsov was clear mvp of play offs playing wise, but Ovechkin could be argued as inspiration to have been MVP because after half assing 15 years defensively then at Stanley run he atleast pretended like trying and that was enough to get everyone play for team i suppose.

You know Crosby doesn’t care and won’t ever read your bitter post right? Just remember to much salt can kill ya