Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[wetcoast]

Nobody cares if he’s a play driver. The whole point of driving plays is to score goals. If you can score goals that’s all that matters.

No it's not the whole point the other 50% is to prevent the other team from scoring.

Learn about real hockey not just fantasy leagues...seriously that's the only reasonable explanation here for your stance right?

He absolutely carried that club to the playoffs.

Funny that there are many reasons that this statement falls flat.

Last 12 games Ovi scored 5 goals and had 7 was -4.

3 of those 5 goals came in Washington losses.

Like pointed upthread the team won a lot of close games and won the turtle derby to that last playoff spot.

Give the man his due.

He has received his due and will if he plays long enough also garner the all time goal scoring lead but like I said even if he comes up short a lot of people including myself will , and already do, have him as the best goal scorer of all time.

 

[DRW895]

Ovechkin was on the ice for almost 95% of his teams powerplay minutes this season just for the Capitals to finish with a below average powerplay. What an impressive "carry".

Nothing bad, irrelevant hate just because he is Ovechkin

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No it's not the whole point the other 50% is to prevent the other team from scoring.

Learn about real hockey not just fantasy leagues...seriously that's the only reasonable explanation here for your stance right?

I’m not sure why you can’t just accept that this guy pulled his team into the playoffs. You consistently undermine this player and it’s tiresome.

26 in 32 doesn’t get them in? Okay…. You keep doing you.

 

[wetcoast]

I’m not sure why you can’t just accept that this guy pulled his team into the playoffs. You consistently undermine this player and it’s tiresome.

26 in 32 doesn’t get them in? Okay…. You keep doing you.

26 in 32 what points?

He didn't score 26 goals in 32 games so maybe that's the problem here is that you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

I mean if you really want to pump his tires the 15 goals in 24 divisional games would be the way to go here not the misguided route you are taking.

But like I said this thread really sin;t for that and I'll create another one with a poll just for you so we can get rid of the clutter here.

Here i made a thread for you, let's stick to goals here shall we.

Did Ovi carry the Capitals to the playoffs this year?

I seldom think that any one player carries any team to the playoffs but creating this thread for the guy that believes the thread title people can make the case for/against in a good natured way. Also the other Ovi thread can stick to it's topic which is Ovi's quest for Gretzky's record and not...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[TeeTee]

Using the term "carried" implies that he was hustling and giving 100% all the time. He did none of that. He scored goals. He could be the laziest superstar I have ever seen.

 

[TheSmokingMan]

The Caps making the playoffs is the result of several things happening, but there are two players that were more important than anyone else. They don't make it in if Ovie doesn't go on his post all-star break hot streak and they don't get in if Lindgren doesn't play lights out. Both of these things had to happen or there would have been no playoffs for the Caps.

Honorable mentions go to John Carlson for logging nearly 30 minutes a night and Strome for having a career year. Young players like McMichael, Protas, Lapierre, and Alexiev growing into full time roles to replace veterans also helped give the team some youthful energy.

Unfortunately, they expended themselves on just barely making the playoffs and the team was out of gas and injured when facing the Rangers. Ovie was playing 20+ minutes a game and that is just too much to expect from him at this stage of his career. He looked completely gassed against the Rangers. At 38 he isn't capable of carrying the team like he was, and it's not fair to expect him to. He'll be 39 going into next season and they have to bring some players in to take the load off of him.

 

[HurricaneFanatic]

He's only 41 away, is there anyone that truly thinks he won't get there over 2 seasons? He still got 31 this year. It would take a fall of epic proportions at this point.

 

[Toby91ca]

He's only 41 away, is there anyone that truly thinks he won't get there over 2 seasons? He still got 31 this year. It would take a fall of epic proportions at this point.

Well, from what he’s saying, he’s still not convinced or saying that it’s still a lot of goals left.

It certainly would not be a fall of epic proportions. He is still aging, so not expected to get better. I fully expect him to do it, but a natural decline would put him very close to the record assuming he plays the next 2 years and that isn’t guaranteed either…he’ll be 40 going into the 2nd year. So yeah, I think in he’ll do it, but wouldn’t take an epic fall not to, just seems that way

 

[SkinsFan09]

Ovechkin was on the ice for almost 95% of his teams powerplay minutes this season just for the Capitals to finish with a below average powerplay. What an impressive "carry".

Well this also comes down to sample size. The Capitals and Ovechkin were HORRIBLE the first 43 games. But they had the best powerplay in the NHL at just under 29 percent after the All Star break.

Tale of two seasons.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

It seems to be this message board attracts the trolls. Not surprisingly. Who defends Ovechkin's performance? He was bad. But he is an almost 39 year old player, way past his prime. Who could still have managed to drag his team into the playoffs when almost no one expected it, ahead of teams with much more talent like the Pens, Red Wings or Devils. Guy just ran out of energy and played against a much superior team & constantly against their best defensive players.

View attachment 861679



Ok troll, the guy who has the 4th most EV goals in NHL history and is close to Howe and Jagr who played 300 more games is a bad EV player.

View attachment 861681

You are literally defending his performance by making excuses. Do you even read yourself? The reaches you are using are immeasurable.

It`s hard to believe 38 years old Ovechkin declined to 28 years old Malkin leven 0+0 against Rangers and very close to 31 years old 100 point RS Crosby with 0+1 against Islandes

What about Hart winner OV with 1+1 in 7 games? That might be worse than all of them.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Using the term "carried" implies that he was hustling and giving 100% all the time. He did none of that. He scored goals. He could be the laziest superstar I have ever seen.

He's 38 with 18 years of mileage. Yeah he's not going to be going all out every shift anymore - he literally can't. If you think this hasn't applied to every great player as they approached 40 you are fooling yourself.

It's not 2013 he's not a superstar anymore, he's in the final years of his career so judging him like he's still young enough to be that guy is flawed.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

You goddamned analytics fanatics make me laugh. You're the same people who told us Jeff Schultz was an actual good NHL Dman, when anyone with eyes could tell he sucked balls. Analytics are 1 tool in the toolbox. We get that Ovie sucked in the playoffs, that doesn't mean he didn't help drag a squad that didn't deserve to be there, to the playoffs.

Are you sure? The only "analytic" that said that Jeff Schultz was good was plus/minus, and most (all?) people who use analytics (rightfully) dismiss that as a flawed, outdated tool, introduced decades ago. "Modern" analytics pretty clearly show that Schultz wasn't a great defensemen (even in 2010, the year he led the league with +50).

 

[Lou Sassole]

Are you sure? The only "analytic" that said that Jeff Schultz was good was plus/minus, and most (all?) people who use analytics (rightfully) dismiss that as a flawed, outdated tool, introduced decades ago. "Modern" analytics pretty clearly show that Schultz wasn't a great defensemen (even in 2010, the year he led the league with +50).

Wrong. His advanced stats took a nosedive. Either way, he was a shitty defenseman throughout. JapersRink did a whole write up on this year's ago. As a former season ticket holder who watched every one of his games, he was never good and struggled to be adequate, even when the advanced stats said something different.

 

[Acallabeth]

Ovechkin was on the ice for almost 95% of his teams powerplay minutes this season just for the Capitals to finish with a below average powerplay. What an impressive "carry".

Maybe if you can't even get your PP to average while having the NHL's all-time leader in PPG, the problem isn't the NHL's all-time leader in PPG.

 

[pabst blue ribbon]

Maybe if you can't even get your PP to average while having the NHL's all-time leader in PPG, the problem isn't the NHL's all-time leader in PPG.

Ovechkin played 85 more minutes than the second most used Capital this season on the powerplay. In 5v4 situations, Ovechkin was on the ice 97% of the time in the games he played in, only four players in the NHL were on the ice for more than 80% of there teams 5v4 and Ovechkin was the only one above 90%. If any players was given an opportunity to "carry" his teams powerplay, Ovechkin would be the main candidate and only blaming his teammates is ludicrous considering his actual PP production isn't particularly better than Strome or Carlson's

 

[Lou Sassole]

Ovechkin played 85 more minutes than the second most used Capital this season on the powerplay. In 5v4 situations, Ovechkin was on the ice 97% of the time in the games he played in, only four players in the NHL were on the ice for more than 80% of there teams 5v4 and Ovechkin was the only one above 90%. If any players was given an opportunity to "carry" his teams powerplay, Ovechkin would be the main candidate and only blaming his teammates is ludicrous considering his actual PP production isn't particularly better than Strome or Carlson's

They missed Backstrom's and prime Kuznetsov's ability to calmy possess and orchestrate from the half-board. So other teams pressure them and force them into throwing the puck around. Also, Ovie handled the puck like it was a grenade.

 

[Selanne00008]

He's 38 with 18 years of mileage. Yeah he's not going to be going all out every shift anymore - he literally can't. If you think this hasn't applied to every great player as they approached 40 you are fooling yourself.

It's not 2013 he's not a superstar anymore, he's in the final years of his career so judging him like he's still young enough to be that guy is flawed.

To add on here. Drew Doughty post game interview just last week was asked how he keeps it going all year every shift. His near exact quote was that he only goes 100% every 5th shift or so. You play smart and seize your opportunities. Otherwise, when you get them you are already gassed out there.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Wrong. His advanced stats took a nosedive. Either way, he was a shitty defenseman throughout. JapersRink did a whole write up on this year's ago. As a former season ticket holder who watched every one of his games, he was never good and struggled to be adequate, even when the advanced stats said something different.

I think I understand where you've misinterpreted those stats. Schultz's GF% looks really good in 2010 because (as I'm sure you remember) the Caps won the President's Trophy. Almost everyone on the team had a really good GF% - because that's what happens on a team with 120+ points. Look at last year's Bruins, almost every regular is at 57%+. They don't have 18 superstars.

It's usually more instructive to look at how a player looks relative to their teammates. (Raw GF% mostly tells you about the quality of a player's team, not his individual performance. As an example - Karlsson jumped 10% between 2018 and 2019. Did he suddenly learn to play defense, or was he traded from a bad team to a good team?). Relating this back to Jeff Schultz - most "advanced" metrics (CF%, FF%, and xGF%) show that he was pretty much average in 2010.

As for raw (or even relative) GF% - Schultz's on ice save percentage was 94.6% (at 5v5). That means he either found a way to turn an aging Jose Theodore and two rookies into a goalie who was significantly better than peak Dominik Hasek. Or it was a fluke. (That explains his +50 rating). It was obvious this was unsustainable. Predictably, when he played in front of still good (but not extraordinary) goaltending over the rest of his career - he looked completely unremarkable.

I think Schultz is actually a good example of how "advanced" stats can give insights. Many fans were blinded by his +50. (So were professional hockey writers – he even got a few votes for the year-end all-star team, and one vote for the Norris trophy). The advanced stats made it pretty clear that his 2010 season was a fluke, and that he wasn't anything special. That seems to be the same conclusion that you, as a season ticketholder, came to.

But to your point - there are a lot of stats out there. It's often unclear which ones are relevant, and/or which are sustainable. I think Jeff Schultz is a bad example because the numbers pretty clearly show that he was an unremarkable defensemen (even when he went +50 and got votes for the all-star team). I think a lot of people dislike "advanced" stats because it's hard to figure out which numbers to look at, and it can be overwhelming to separate what's useful from the noise.

 

[Lou Sassole]

I think I understand where you've misinterpreted those stats. Schultz's GF% looks really good in 2010 because (as I'm sure you remember) the Caps won the President's Trophy. Almost everyone on the team had a really good GF% - because that's what happens on a team with 120+ points. Look at last year's Bruins, almost every regular is at 57%+. They don't have 18 superstars.

It's usually more instructive to look at how a player looks relative to their teammates. (Raw GF% mostly tells you about the quality of a player's team, not his individual performance. As an example - Karlsson jumped 10% between 2018 and 2019. Did he suddenly learn to play defense, or was he traded from a bad team to a good team?). Relating this back to Jeff Schultz - most "advanced" metrics (CF%, FF%, and xGF%) show that he was pretty much average in 2010.

As for raw (or even relative) GF% - Schultz's on ice save percentage was 94.6% (at 5v5). That means he either found a way to turn an aging Jose Theodore and two rookies into a goalie who was significantly better than peak Dominik Hasek. Or it was a fluke. (That explains his +50 rating). It was obvious this was unsustainable. Predictably, when he played in front of still good (but not extraordinary) goaltending over the rest of his career - he looked completely unremarkable.

I think Schultz is actually a good example of how "advanced" stats can give insights. Many fans were blinded by his +50. (So were professional hockey writers – he even got a few votes for the year-end all-star team, and one vote for the Norris trophy). The advanced stats made it pretty clear that his 2010 season was a fluke, and that he wasn't anything special. That seems to be the same conclusion that you, as a season ticketholder, came to.

But to your point - there are a lot of stats out there. It's often unclear which ones are relevant, and/or which are sustainable. I think Jeff Schultz is a bad example because the numbers pretty clearly show that he was an unremarkable defensemen (even when he went +50 and got votes for the all-star team). I think a lot of people dislike "advanced" stats because it's hard to figure out which numbers to look at, and it can be overwhelming to separate what's useful from the noise.

Agreed. I like advanced stats as one of the tools, and you don't seem to be a militant advanced stats devotee, which i appreciate. I'm used people who think advanced stats in hockey and football can inform as much as they do in baseball, which is crazy to me. The games are just so different, and baseball lends itself to advanced stats analysis. When they were using Schultz as a top pairing guy, too many people would argue with me about about him. Anyone with eyes could see he was being carried by Green and favorable usage. Anyway, I appreciate the information and rational discussion.

 

[Beukeboom]

Ovechkin played 85 more minutes than the second most used Capital this season on the powerplay. In 5v4 situations, Ovechkin was on the ice 97% of the time in the games he played in, only four players in the NHL were on the ice for more than 80% of there teams 5v4 and Ovechkin was the only one above 90%. If any players was given an opportunity to "carry" his teams powerplay, Ovechkin would be the main candidate and only blaming his teammates is ludicrous considering his actual PP production isn't particularly better than Strome or Carlson's

This is the sort of stuff I refered to when I said the Caps are doing eveything they can to help Ovie get the record. I also remember an Ovie goal a few weeks ago when Strome had the puck completely free in front of the goalie, but chose to pass sideways to Ovie who had a defenceman between himself and the goalie. Now off course Ovie scored because he's Ovie, but that pass would have stapled you to the bench under any other circumstance.

 

[SkinsFan09]

This is the sort of stuff I refered to when I said the Caps are doing eveything they can to help Ovie get the record. I also remember an Ovie goal a few weeks ago when Strome had the puck completely free in front of the goalie, but chose to pass sideways to Ovie who had a defenceman between himself and the goalie. Now off course Ovie scored because he's Ovie, but that pass would have stapled you to the bench under any other circumstance.

Do you think the Leafs weren't trying to get Matthews to 70? That Gretzky's teammates didn't want to help him break Howe's all-time points record? That every player near a milestone of all-time or in-season isn't helped by teammates along the way?

Using that as your argument is weak. If the franchise were selling out to get him the record that roster wouldn't be so devoid of offensive talent. And they would not have been sellers at the TDL two years in a row.

He's on the ice that much on the PP because he is the best PP goal scorer ever, on a team with little offensive creativity, and is approaching 40 so why not give him minutes where he can be most useful?

 

[JianYang]

He's only 41 away, is there anyone that truly thinks he won't get there over 2 seasons? He still got 31 this year. It would take a fall of epic proportions at this point.

That's the thing. A fall of epic proportions gets liklier as you get older.

It's possible.

 

[Beukeboom]

Do you think the Leafs weren't trying to get Matthews to 70? That Gretzky's teammates didn't want to help him break Howe's all-time points record? That every player near a milestone of all-time or in-season isn't helped by teammates along the way?

Using that as your argument is weak. If the franchise were selling out to get him the record that roster wouldn't be so devoid of offensive talent. And they would not have been sellers at the TDL two years in a row.

He's on the ice that much on the PP because he is the best PP goal scorer ever, on a team with little offensive creativity, and is approaching 40 so why not give him minutes where he can be most useful?

Well now we're on repeat here. But it's different trying to help a guy to 70 during the last ten games of a season, and spending a few years trying to help someone. Gretzky was still in his prime when he sat all records, so it's not like he needed any special assistance.

Of course, it's not like Washington has any better scorers to give ice time. But Ovie's 5 on 4 time is pretty extreme. Perhaps some of the younger players would develop a bit better if they got a chance to play the PP as well?

"In 5v4 situations, Ovechkin was on the ice 97% of the time in the games he played in, only four players in the NHL were on the ice for more than 80% of there teams 5v4 and Ovechkin was the only one above 90%." I don't think Ovie does anything that warrants such an extreme usage other than helping him towards a record (which will take two more years)?