Ovechkin ALLTIME rank before start of '19-20
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hamzarocks
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KoozNetsOff 92
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I put Ovechkin at 11th but can see arguments for 8ish to 16ish at this point.
I have 2 goalies ahead of him but I really don't like ranking position players with Goalies.
Even without Hasek and Roy (11th with them) 9th might be a little high.
I have the Big 4, Crosby, Jagr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Potvin ahead of him and I think there are several other players as well.
Maybe my 11th was too high now that I think about it, more like 15th but he is on the cusp of a top 10 as well.
Changed my vote outside top 15 probably around 15th and not 22nd like the HOH section had him on their recent list of top 100 players of all time
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The obvious ones who are ahead for me are Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe
Crosby. Easy one too - since their careers are head to head and easier to compare, and I have him ahead.
Roy/Hasek, I think when his full career is done and depending on how he rounds up - I might be open to him above one of them (both?) - but not yet.
Bourque
Then you have Beliveau, Hull, Richard, Harvey
Jagr. This one i'm split on, could see either/or. Ovechkin will pass him with full career i expect, but as of now i'm split.
Let's say #13.
Crosby. Easy one too - since their careers are head to head and easier to compare, and I have him ahead.
Roy/Hasek, I think when his full career is done and depending on how he rounds up - I might be open to him above one of them (both?) - but not yet.
Bourque
Then you have Beliveau, Hull, Richard, Harvey
Jagr. This one i'm split on, could see either/or. Ovechkin will pass him with full career i expect, but as of now i'm split.
Let's say #13.
KoozNetsOff 92
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Gretzky
Orr/Howe
Lemieux
Hasek
Hull/Beliveau/Jagr/Ovechkin/Crosby/Bourque/Roy
Lidstrom was never the best player in the world, or even close, so an easy no for me. Potvin has the peak but it's not like it's better than OV's and then OV definitely has him beat for longevity so that's an easy no as well.
WingsMJN2965
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Not sure about this season, but I think a lot of his legacy is going to be determined by his decisions over the next few years.
Most will never give him the credit of being as good as Crosby, but I think if he passed Gordie in goal scoring, you really have to consider it. IMO, he's the best pure goal scorer ever.
Most will never give him the credit of being as good as Crosby, but I think if he passed Gordie in goal scoring, you really have to consider it. IMO, he's the best pure goal scorer ever.
KoozNetsOff 92
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How is Richard ahead of OV? Richard's claim to fame was goal scoring, but OV has 3 more rockets, more top 5 finishes and more top 10 finishes. OV also has a better hart record and better PPG finishes. Yeah Richard was a great playoff performer, but let's not forget he played in 1 of the weakest eras in history (post WWII) on a dynasty in a 6 team league. He played in such a weak era but still has an inferior resume, not sure how you're ranking him ahead at this point.
KoozNetsOff 92
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Yet he was never even nominated for a hart. He won those Norris trophies in a weak era for Dmen, guys like Bourque, Chelios and Leetch were retired and/or past their prime so his competition was a Pronger who couldn't stay healthy and an overrated guy like Niedermayer. His hart voting record in his Norris years proves his value.
WingsMJN2965
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Considering one defender not named Orr has won the Hart in the last 75 years, this is a really shitty example.
It's been the general consensus that defenders and goalies typically ain't getting the Hart. When they do, it's because forwards had a down year.
The reality is, the vast majority of the voters can't see past anything but points.
KoozNetsOff 92
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They might not win, but there's nothing stopping them from getting nominated. You'd think a guy who won 7 Norris trophies would get at least one nomination if he was so great. Check his hart record in his Norris years
4,6,7,8,10,19
Now check guys like Bourque and Potvin and you'll see the difference.
WingsMJN2965
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And yet Lidstrom is generally considered a better all time defender than either...
Before I start a war, that's not an AINEC statement, people have definitely made arguments.
Realistically, in the last 20 years we've had 4 seasons without a 100 point player, and three of those seasons were the only years we've had non-forward Hart winners.
Arguing he was never the best because he didn't win a Hart is kinda BS considering Jose Theodore is a Hart winner. One is a top defender of all time and a first ballot HHOFer, the other probably never will be in the HHOF.
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I'm guessing you have these 5 on a level above this next group?
Was Bourque ever the best player in the world?
Also I hope this is a general group and not the order.
Perhaps not but being an elite Dman for 16 years and with his playoff resume he is ahead of Ovechkin for me and quite easily still.
Potvin has a 7 year run with top 10 finishes in the Hart, something that is hard for a Dman to do.
Potvin was also an elite playoff performer, better than Ovechkin.
I think both Dmen look extremely comfortable with the group above them.
When do defensemen win the Hart? Karlsson had GOAT potential and has 0 hart trophy.
tomi2
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He is behind Jagr. Jagr is a top 10 player for me. Ovechkin is somewhere in the top 10-30 all time players.
roflstomper
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#winning
And yet Lidstrom is generally considered a better all time defender than either...
Before I start a war, that's not an AINEC statement, people have definitely made arguments.
Realistically, in the last 20 years we've had 4 seasons without a 100 point player, and three of those seasons were the only years we've had non-forward Hart winners.
Arguing he was never the best because he didn't win a Hart is kinda BS considering Jose Theodore is a Hart winner. One is a top defender of all time and a first ballot HHOFer, the other probably never will be in the HHOF.
Lidstrom is definitely not generally considered a better all time defender than Bourque. Even Potvin is ranked ahead of him at times.
I'm curious as to what metric or reasons you have Jagr over crosby or even Ovechkin at this point?
Jagr and crosby both have 11 top 10 in scoring seasons and the 3 other years Crosby still has elite play while Jagr was good to very good in his next 3 best years.
Crosby also has a better 2 way game and playoffs than Jagr.
I think Jagr has a good playoff resume BTW but Crosby is probably top 20ish all time and Jagr somewhere in the 40-60 range maybe?
For the record I think Jagr is between the 2 and Ovechkin will probably pass Jagr soon.
I think the gap between Bourque and Lidstrom is really small and comes down to personal preference more than anything else.
I love Potvin but he retired early, when compared to the level that the 2 other guys put up for close to 20 years, but he is really close to both of them and might have the best peak of the 3 as well.
Potvin probably has the best 8 year start to his NHL career by a Dman not named Orr.
Intangir
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This thread needs to be put in the History of Hockey board.
As for answering the OP, right now Ovechkin would be just outside the top 15 for me, slightly below Crosby and Jagr and looking to move up a bit by the time his career is up.
My All-time list would look something like this, trying to be as unbiased as I can.
1 - Gretzky
2- Lemieux
3 - Orr
4 -Howe
5 - Bobby Hull
6 - Beliveau
7 - Harvey
8 - Richard
9 - Morenz
10 - Bourque
11 - Hasek
12 - Lidstrom
13 - Roy
14 - Jagr
15 - Crosby
After the 15th spot, there's a lot of guys quite close together for me that deserve to be on the list like Stan Mikita, Eddie Shore, Jacques Plante, Ovechkin, Lafleur, Messier and a couple others.
If Ovie continues putting up the points and goals, he could find his way up the rankings and displace guys like Roy, Jagr, possibly Lidstrom and Hasek if he continues for a couple seasons more.
That said, the top 10 is where it gets really hard to advance and if Crosby and Ovechkin want to eventually make their way there they'll need more stats, trophies of individual greatness, and Stanley Cups. Even in the best case scenario where they both keep playing well until they reach 40+ years old, I don't see any of them getting up much higher than the 9th spot on this list, which is still pretty awesome in its own right when you think that we have had the pleasure to enjoy the primes of two (five for a short time if you include Jagr, Hasek and Lidstrom) top 20 players of all-time playing against each other in the same era.
As for answering the OP, right now Ovechkin would be just outside the top 15 for me, slightly below Crosby and Jagr and looking to move up a bit by the time his career is up.
My All-time list would look something like this, trying to be as unbiased as I can.
1 - Gretzky
2- Lemieux
3 - Orr
4 -Howe
5 - Bobby Hull
6 - Beliveau
7 - Harvey
8 - Richard
9 - Morenz
10 - Bourque
11 - Hasek
12 - Lidstrom
13 - Roy
14 - Jagr
15 - Crosby
After the 15th spot, there's a lot of guys quite close together for me that deserve to be on the list like Stan Mikita, Eddie Shore, Jacques Plante, Ovechkin, Lafleur, Messier and a couple others.
If Ovie continues putting up the points and goals, he could find his way up the rankings and displace guys like Roy, Jagr, possibly Lidstrom and Hasek if he continues for a couple seasons more.
That said, the top 10 is where it gets really hard to advance and if Crosby and Ovechkin want to eventually make their way there they'll need more stats, trophies of individual greatness, and Stanley Cups. Even in the best case scenario where they both keep playing well until they reach 40+ years old, I don't see any of them getting up much higher than the 9th spot on this list, which is still pretty awesome in its own right when you think that we have had the pleasure to enjoy the primes of two (five for a short time if you include Jagr, Hasek and Lidstrom) top 20 players of all-time playing against each other in the same era.
Machinehead
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Richard's claim to fame is more playoff heroics than goal-scoring.
If you don't like Richard, there's also Lidstrom, or Shore, or Morenz, or Messier, or any number of guys.
teravaineSAROS
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