OV vs Crosby: beyond secondary assists

daver

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Apr 4, 2003
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I am big fan of OV vs Crosby debate and stats comparisons.
So its a common knowledge that OV trumps Crosby in goals:
Goals 705 to 462, or 0.61 vs 0.47 goals per game
And Crosby dominates in secondary and primary assists:
Primary 500 to 351, or 0.52 vs 0.31 primary assists per game
Secondary 301 to 219, or 0.31 vs 0.19 secondary assists per game

What is surprising is that OV dominates in "beyond secondary assists" or "no points awarded plays", whatever you call it.
Those could be calculated as team's goals fared while player is on ice minus player's points (TGF - P in hockey-reference.com terms).
So it is effectively sum of A3+A4+NoAssist. (There are realistically four teammates who could have touched the puck before a goal).
OV leads by 552 to 361, or 0.48 to 0.37 per game in those.

Unfortunately NHL does not track assists beyond secondary and it is not clear how many NoAssists vs A3+A4 are there.

For completeness here are team's goals fared stats where it is mixed result:
OV leads in absolute numbers: 1828 to 1624 TGF and Crosby is ahead in per game stats 1.65 vs 1.59

So what do we learn from it, OV has better teammates on average throughout his career?
Backstrom is good player but not known for his goal scoring with only one 30 goals campaign, Semin with two 30 goals and one 40 goals campaigns, Green.
On the other hand Crosby had Kunitz with three 30 goals campaign, Guntzel with 40 goals, Malkin on PP and in two-headed monster situations, Letang.

Or is it something else like OV drawing more coverage, opening up space, where teammates have more opportunities to score where OV is not directly involved.

All stats from hockey-reference.com

First of all, your starting stat should be the per game stat of Crosby at 1.65 vs OV at 1.59. Actually your starting stat should be Net Goals Fared which includes the goals against for each player which would be even more in Crosby's favour.

Then the per game stat which would highlight the idea of their different contributions to the offensive side of things. Then we would take away their actual production to come up with......wait what? Crosby is going to be effectively penalized for being the more productive player? The fact that OV contributes less %-wise to his four other teammates' productivity than Crosby does is somehow a positive for OV?

Anyways, now we have the all telling OV 0.48 per game to Crosby 0.37 per game and you think this isn't a clear indicator that OV has better linemates?
 
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Midnight Judges

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Actually your starting stat should be Net Goals Fared which includes the goals against for each player which would be even more in Crosby's favour.

No it wouldn't, because Sidney Crosby sucks at defense:

09/10 through 18/19 Regular Season
CrosbyBergeronOvechkinToewsKopitarDatsyuk
EV GA481379548470493240
EV TOI10717102511221811276123508438
Total EV GA/602.6932.2182.6912.5012.3951.707
PPSHGA532451313116
PP TOI261019333271219824051343
Total1.2180.7450.9350.8460.7730.715
EV+PP GA534403599501524256
EV+PP TOI13327121841548913474147559781
EV+PPGA/602.4041.9852.3202.2312.1311.570
PK TOI29514172111561493295
PK TOI/GP27 seconds1:572 seconds1:351:5741 seconds
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
"PPSHGA" = power play short handed goals against.

And playoffs:

09/10 through 18/19 Playoffs
PlayerCrosbyBergeronOvechkinToewsKopitarDatsyuk
EV GA985876703627
EV TOI19121789176819001293931
Total EV GA/603.0751.9452.5792.2111.6711.740
PPSHGA843213
PP TOI483320463326268203
Total0.9940.7500.3890.3680.2240.887
EV+PP GA1066279723730
EV+PP TOI239521092231222615611134
EV+PPGA/602.6561.7642.1251.9411.4221.587
PK TOI24.5 Minutes2254:2419716256
PK TOI/GP13 Seconds1:542 seconds1:472:030:57
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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You cannot paint them as any other than under achievers. It's not like Team Canada was rolling over the competition that year.

I see that Ovechkin has played 11 Olympic games with 9pts(7 goals). Crosby has 13 games and 10pts. I see a difference in the quality of the team but not in the players.
 
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Inner Gear

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Apr 7, 2008
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Ovechkin: 1 Stanley Cup, 0 Olympic Gold Medals
Crosby: 3 Stanley Cups, 2 Olympic Gold Medals
Irrelevant.
Either that, or Wayne Gretzky is "above average" player with 4 Cups, and Mario Lemieux (with 2 Cups) is "mediocre" at most. There are literally tens of players with more Cups.
 
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